Author Topic: Pedersoli dbl bbl 12ga (Read 2163 times)

PHATINJUN · « **on:** February 18, 2012, 11:05:17 AM »

Where can I find information on these guns. I found one at local shop that looks to be servicable bores look good hammers and triggers appear ok only #'s were 9888 also had proof mark of what I think is the anvil/w DAV inside it. Also says Ditta Davide Gardone V.I Brescia Italy. Brass side locks got some engraving on it also checkered at the stock grip. $400 and can probly get him to move a little on that. Any of that info mean anything for aging it? Thanks Kurt

IronBrigade · « **Reply #1 on:** February 18, 2012, 01:25:45 PM »

Hi Kurt
Dixie gun works sells the Pedersoli shot guns. Go to their web site they have info for them. I have the Dixie gun works catalog, they are nice a lookin shotgun.
In the catalog they go for $925.00 new and $750.00 for a kit gun.
length-45"
weight-7 lbs
#11 caps
Recommended load- 72 gr. FFG 1 1/8 oz. shot

Hope this helps.

Semisane · « **Reply #2 on:** February 18, 2012, 03:43:24 PM »

This might help you PHATINJUN. I've never seen one with brass sidelocks. Most are blue or silver with engraving.

keith44 · « **Reply #3 on:** February 19, 2012, 04:14:07 AM »

Shoot em an e-mail. Fairly easy to work with, be sure to have your browser translate the web site, unless you speak and read Italian

http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/

PHATINJUN · « **Reply #4 on:** February 19, 2012, 06:28:14 AM »

Thanks guys .I do have the DGW cat. and have checked the website. Still not able to determine the age. The sidelocks may in fact be silver just tarnished so much they look like dirty brass. Some of the stuff I need to get the yr right may be hidden by the forestock and be stamped under the bbl's. Just a little surprised by the fact they seem to make it very difficult to figure out yr of manufacture. Kurt

quickdtoo · « **Reply #5 on:** February 19, 2012, 06:31:25 AM »

Quote from: keith44 on February 19, 2012, 04:14:07 AM

Shoot em an e-mail. Fairly easy to work with, be sure to have your browser translate the web site, unless you speak and read Italian

http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/

Just click the english version at the top of the page!

Tim

http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/guns-for-sale-pedersoli.asp?l=en

Rock Home Isle · « **Reply #6 on:** February 20, 2012, 05:22:07 AM »

I have a Pedersoli Double 12 in a strait stocked light upland model...very nice handling and such a joy to take into the field on a pheasant hunt; walking CRP ground and flushing quail; or just spending time with my son hunting doves in the fall.

Pedersoli makes a great product and as long as the previous owner took care of the firearm and there is no major pitting in the bore, you should be quite happy with this firearm.

I did have a problem with a .32 calibre Blue Ridge Rifle many years ago and the parts were easily found and purchased.

The only thing better than owning a fine shooting shooting double is owning two or more.

PHATINJUN · « **Reply #7 on:** February 21, 2012, 06:20:41 PM »

Well I bought it today got it for $300 out the door will not be picking it up till next week but I am very excited about it. I usually don't get these deals from this guy but I know he is not a BP fan so he was willing to let it go. I had him take the bbl's off and did the ring test ...sounded like a fine church bell. Plus it has all the markings and proof marks on the underside of the bbl's. Didn't have time to go thru the markings so I am not sure what the yr is but I believe its mid 70's to mid 80's. 28" lined bbl's one rust spot on out side of bbl . I think it is just very heavilly tarnished silver locks and triggers quite a lot of engraving and the stocks are going to turn out very nice when refinished I am also contemplating having the bbl's reblued to a high polish luster. I will post pictures when I get it home.thanks for the help . Kurt

keith44 · « **Reply #8 on:** February 21, 2012, 07:58:43 PM »

enjoy it my friend, with proper care it will serve you well for the rest of your life and be passed down to your children

Rock Home Isle · « **Reply #9 on:** February 22, 2012, 02:46:47 AM »

Good to hear that you were able to get it for such a fine price. You will enjoy it.

coyotejoe · « **Reply #10 on:** February 23, 2012, 06:24:17 AM »

If the bores are good you got a steal of a deal. Those older Pedersoli's were nice, light guns before they went magnum on them. Are the barrels browned? The early versions generally were and personally I think they look a lot better than blued, I've never seen an original ML double that was blued, it was done back then but rarely. A fine wire wheel on a grinder or drill press will make short work of any rust on the lock plates. It is probably choked, and you'll need to develop a technique for getting wads started past the choke but you'll have a gun which can compete with any modern shotgun. If it's one of the light guns, under six pounds, you'll want to keep loads on the lighter side, one ounce or ounce and an eighth with an equal volume of powder will not kick too bad, anything more will rock you some. For me, one ounce loads from a modified or full choke will kill as far out as I have any real chance of hitting anything.

PHATINJUN · « **Reply #11 on:** February 24, 2012, 01:03:52 PM »

Well I went and paid for the gun today and brought the bbl's home with me so I could do some more research on it. Left the action there because I am waiting on another gun to arrive and did not want to do the paper work again. The bbl's are browned and the yr of manufacture or yr of proof was 1976. The nipples were very clean as are the inside of the chambers. Have not figured out what all the markings mean on the underside yet. One of the marks is KG1 300 that is on just one of the bbl's then there is 18 2 and that is on both bbl's. There is the letters AB in the rectangular box which is the date then the PN under the proof mark both bbl's also the proof house shield or coat of arms? Last there is the number 70 stamped on the underside of the center rib...wonder if that is not the grains of powder but seems little low to me if it is. My starting load is probably going to be full 45/70 case of powder and the same with some #5 shot that I have. Thanks for all the intrest and help thus far.I will get some pics up soon as I find my camera and get the rest of the gun home. Can't seem to find camera at this time I may of left it in the motor home which is still parked at deer camp.Also not sure what the chokes are . Kurt

keith44 · « **Reply #12 on:** February 24, 2012, 04:48:15 PM »

" Left the action there because I am waiting on another gun to arrive and did not want to do the paper work again. "
[/size]
[/size]Umm, what paperwork?? I get these things mail order with a statement of being over 21. This is a muzzleloader and not a concern for the BATF, so long as it is not converted to fire fixed ammo.
[/size](Just curious, some state governments seem to forget this is still a nation of free citizens not subjects)

[/size]Anyway yes that "70" sounds like the recommended service load. My Pedersoli manual shows a max load of 72 grains of powder (unspecified) with 1.1 oz of shot. Interesting thing is that is exactly the volume of a modern 45/70 case so good call on what to start with. So that service load might also be the regulation load. Now my Kodiak also came with Cabela's load booklet and they list 1 1/4 oz of shot over either 92 grains of Black Powder, or 72 grains of Pyrodex. DGW 2011 catalog shows 72 grains of 2F black with 1 1/8 oz of shot (sounds alot like that 72 grains and 1.1 oz mentioned in the pedersoli booklet)

[/size]Good shooting,

PHATINJUN · « **Reply #13 on:** February 24, 2012, 06:43:18 PM »

That's the Illinois paper work it saves Millions of lives every yr here in Illinois

. You can't even buy a pellet gun in Illinois with out it. We are one of those states that every cataloge that has the restricted sale states listing IL is every thing restricted. Kurt

coyotejoe · « **Reply #14 on:** February 25, 2012, 11:30:39 AM »

My best guess, 18.2 is the bore diameter in millimeters, which works out to .710". Those Pedersoli guns were tight on the bore and people generally recommend 13 gauge wads for Pedersoli 12's. KG 1300 is the pressure for which it is proofed, 1300 Kilograms per square centimeter. The number 70 on a breechloading gun would indicate 70 mm chamber length or 2 3/4 inch but on this gun I suspect it is the barrel length in centimeters or 27.3"

PHATINJUN · « **Reply #15 on:** February 25, 2012, 04:21:39 PM »

That appears to be a lot of good info CJoe but may have some holes in it . The 70 I think as Keith suggested is more than likley the powder charge... I got that 45/70 load tip from the writtings of V.M. Starr which is what he said works very good for all day carry and bumping into rabbits, quail, grouse and the occasional pheasent. For ducks,turkeys and longer range stuff he had heavier but said this load will not blow the hole in the pattern. The 18.2 makes sense but I can not make the . out in the stamp but the space is there.Also the KG stamp is not real clear either but makes much sense. The bbl length measures exactly 28.5. I have not tried to measure bore yet and there is no clear or even any thing that points to the choke as being any thing but cyl bore. Which for the time being is ok till I start working on a pattern load original intent was just for turkeys but the newer Pedersolis have changable tubes and that may be a option down the road may even try and get it to launch some pumpkin balls as nearly all my deer shots are under 50 yards. I do thank you all for your input ain't it funny how ya got to get input from several folks nowdays to decipher the bbl mysteries on these older guns ? Years ago it was probly mostly common knowledge. Again thanks a bunch guys. Kurt

PHATINJUN · « **Reply #16 on:** February 28, 2012, 04:14:41 AM »

Ok been doing a little more research on my 12ga bbl's chokes I do believe as was stated before the 18.2 # on both bbl's is metric which converts to basically.710 now according to the following chart that I found.

The following is a generally agreed upon list of shotgun TRUE BORE DIAMETERS all gauges (NON-BACKBORED
BARRELS) and a Iist of generally accepted choke constrictions (IN THOUSANDS OF AN INCH) for the various named

choke constrictions.

(EXAMPLE: You have a 12 gauge shotgun with a true bore diameter of .729 and have .019 choke constriction--therefore

you have a MODIFIED choke with an inside diameter of the the choke to be .710.)

MISCELLANEOUS

1. Non-American shotguns (12 GA.) normaIly have a true bore diameter of approximately .005 less than US

barrels or generally have a true bore diameter of .725.

2. Back bored barrels (12 GA.) usually have a true bore diameter of .740 to .745.

SHOTGUN CHOKE SPECIFICATIONS

(NON-BACK BORED BARRELS)

[/size]

Gauge 10 12 16 20 28 410

True Bore Dia. .779 .729 .667 .617 .550 .410

Cylinder Bore .000 - .779 .000 - .729 .000 - .667 .000 - .617 .000 - .550 .000 - .410

Skeet I .005 - .774 .005 - .724 .004 - .663 .004 - .613 .003 - .547 .002 - .408

Improved Cyl. .010 - .769 .009 - .720 .007 - .660 .006 - .611 .005 - .545 .004 - .406

Skeet II .015 - .764 0.12 - .717 .010 - .657 .009 - .608 .007 - .543 .006 - .404

Modified .020 - .759 0.19 - .710 .015 - .652 .014 - .603 .012 - .538 .008 - .402

Improved Mod. .025 - .754 .025 - .704 .020 - .647 .019 - .598 .016 - .534 .011 - .399

Full Choke .035 - .744 .035 - .694 .028 - .639 .025 - .592 .022 - .528 .015 - .395

Extra Full .040 - .739 .040 - .689 .035 - .632 .027 - .590 .024 - .526 .021 - .389

So according to this chart my bbl's are both modified. What are your thoughts on being able to use the #5 shot I have on hand to kill turkeys with my shots should be short under 35yards as the turkeys I will be hunting don't really get called or hunted much on this land and I have shot several over the yrs with my longbow. I know I will have to develope my own pattern but was just curious as to your thoughts. I am not real keen on modifying this old gun from it's original configuration and the modified choke should work very well for just about anything else I decide to shoot with it. I think if I feel the need to go with a full or extra full type turkey choke I have an old 12ga H&R Huntsman that I would rather put a changable choke tube in. What are your thoughts.Thanks again Kurt

keith44 · « **Reply #17 on:** February 28, 2012, 06:27:13 AM »

take the barrels to a machine shop, or tool and die shop and have the bore measured about 6" to 10" back from the muzzle before deciding on a choke constriction.

PHATINJUN · « **Reply #18 on:** March 02, 2012, 08:49:35 AM »

Quote from: keith44 on February 28, 2012, 06:27:13 AM

take the barrels to a machine shop, or tool and die shop and have the bore measured about 6" to 10" back from the muzzle before deciding on a choke constriction.

I guess I am not really following you here Keith. Are you suggesting here that I may not have the modified choke on both bbls or does your suggestion pertain to before I have the bbl's modified or threaded for changable chokes? At this time i really have no intention of altering this gun from it's original condition. I have been reading this forum quite a bit latley to do some learning on these shot guns as mostly been shooting rifled H&R .45's and .58's I also have a 12ga ML H&R that is a cylinder bore single shot. I am up to page 70 of some 94 pages here so I have a few more ? for you guys.
With the bbls cylinder being 12ga .729 and it being modified choked .710 What are some of the ways of over coming this differance in size trying to put over powder and over shot cards down the tubes straight. I have read some writings from V.M. Starr of a load he has come to really like and has used for yrs and that is to just use the card or even 2 cards over the powder pour in shot then put a single over shot card down the tubes at this time though I do not recall what his chokes were or if they were choked at all. Now some of the more recent reading here I have seen some guys with tighter chokes just using felt cards and wads also using an array of shot cups ...I really unless I end up needing to don't have much intrest in using shot cups. I will wait for some suggestions before I ask any more. Looks like I will be able to bring the rest of the gun home on tuesday. Thanks in advance for the help. Kurt

keith44 · « **Reply #19 on:** March 02, 2012, 01:01:53 PM »

Hey Kurt,
in a nutshell, a shotgun barrel (any shotgun barrel) is not properly called choked unless the diameter of the bore is reduced at the muzzle. When determining bore the barrel is measured with inside diameter micrometers. this is measured about 10" from both the muzzle and the chamber. This bore diameter is then either left the same at the muzzle, or reduced at the muzzle. So to determine if the barrels are indeed choked the center portion of the barrel should be measured, then that measurement compared to the muzzle diameter.

If you want a choke, but do not want to deal with screw in chokes, or do not have enough metal in the barrel walls, a "jug choke" can usually be cut in. This is not always an option on a double barrel set, but a creative gun smith (a real good one, not the average gun hack) with barrel building and back boring experience can do it.

Keep reading all you can about shotguns, look into back boring and barrel building to get a grasp of what a shotgun barrel really is. Compared to a rifle barrel, a shotgun barrel is very complex. My Lyman shotshell loading manual has a couple of articles that you may also find useful. "The vagaries of shotgun performance" by Don Zutz, and "Advanced Hunting loads" by Tom Roster. My book is an older "third edition"
Used ones can be had
http://www.amazon.com/Shotshell-Handbook-Edition-Seventh-Printing/dp/B001BZUUJ4/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1330732796&sr=1-4
or maybe you can find the articles in another source.

PHATINJUN · « **Reply #20 on:** March 02, 2012, 02:16:56 PM »

? if the gun is marked 12ga does that not mean then that the cylinder part of the bbl is basically .729? Isn't that what is considered 12ga? or do ML or any bbl for that matter might not actually be .729?or is 729 the standard?
I guess what I am going by is that standard and then my bbl's being stamped with the
18.2 # and that converting to .710 then using the sheet I posted saying .710 is modified choke when pertaining to 12ga. Does that make sense? Thanks again for the help. Kurt

keith44 · « **Reply #21 on:** March 02, 2012, 03:43:42 PM »

yup, perfectly logical and accepted everywhere, except with shotgun barrels.

you see the problem is you are not certain that the bore is .729 (ideal 12 gauge) if you use wads and cards (instead of shot cups) to load, and put 2 12ga wads into a .710 diameter bore (instead of just a choked barrel) the pressures could get excessive. .710 is 13 gauge and is typical of muzzleloaders.

A tight fitting patch pushed and pulled through the bore would let you feel if it is a choked barrel.

PHATINJUN · « **Reply #22 on:** March 03, 2012, 04:32:15 AM »

Ok I see . There is no doubt it is choked as with the patch it is way loose down the bore . I have measured the muzzles them selves with telescoping gage and mic they do measure .710. Also when I move them down the bore they get loose but with this set up and gages I have no way of knowing what the actual measurements are. I will check with a few guys I know and see what they have to measure with. Other wise I will get with a new smith who has opened a shop in my home town that I was wanting to go meet and see what some of his prices were and just what type of gun work he is looking to do. I will just play around some with the light loads I was going to start with till then . thanks Kurt

PHATINJUN · « **Reply #23 on:** March 09, 2012, 05:44:15 PM »

I picked up the rest of my gun today and have it completly disassembled . I planned on reduing the whole thing when I bought it. But now that I got all the steel apart I am a little disappointed. All the pieces look like they missed the last work bench lots of finish file and stoning to do. I still am not sure what the finish is supposed to be the trigger gaurd is blued but the rest is either supposed to be bare metal or one of the worst case colored I have ever seen. One of my ?? is all the pieces have the #70 hand stamped on them...when I had just the bbl's we thought the 70 pertained to the powder load but with what it is the suggested load should be more like 80. Any body know what the 70 stands for? It's a 1976 model. Even though the metal has the stamp burrs the fit on every thing to the stock is perfect. Lots of engraving but the piece that goes on front of the forearm where the rod goes in appears to just have the outline of what looks like a pinapple which is part of the rest of the pattern but the center engraving is not complete like on the rest of the gun. Was Pedersoli in a slide in 1976 ? Look to have much better workmanship these days. Kurt

keith44 · « **Reply #24 on:** March 09, 2012, 09:37:42 PM »

WOW!! I am surprised there are that many issues with it. Growing pains maybe?? I dunno but I've had mine laid bare a couple times and am impressed with the fit and finish of what is best described as clockwork.

PHATINJUN · « **Reply #25 on:** March 10, 2012, 03:09:20 AM »

Any idea what the #70 stamped on each part means ? Kurt

keith44 · « **Reply #26 on:** March 10, 2012, 05:24:46 AM »

since everything has the same number, I would guess at this point it is just a number assigned in house so that after first fitting or dry assembly of the gun, every part is sent to be polished along with several other guns parts. When all those parts get back to assembly after bluing, polishing, or whatever, all the assembler needs to do is match the number on a stock (bet it's there somewhere) to the number on all the other parts.

My other thought is it is a number given an employee to trace quality issues if the gun ever was sent back for warranty

PHATINJUN · « **Reply #27 on:** March 10, 2012, 10:31:56 AM »

Your first thought makes perfect sence as the # is on every part that comes off the gun except the hammers which means they either didn't put the # on them or this is a set of replacement hammers...it is stamped on the stock and the # was written in chalk on stock under butt plate. Kurt