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Offline crustylicious

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Why Obamacare is good for America
« on: February 19, 2012, 05:28:43 PM »
  Why Obamacare is good for America  More Coloradans will have access to health care, and small businesses will benefit. It's the right prescription.

 

Over the past few decades, America's health care system has been hurtling toward a crisis. Almost one-third of Coloradans — 1.5 million — either have health care coverage that is inadequate or have none at all. The primary reason is skyrocketing costs, which have priced out businesses and individuals alike. While wages have been more or less frozen the last few years, health insurance premiums have increased up to 20 percent.
Decisions about our health care are too personal and important to be left to insurance companies. The Affordable Care Act, dubbed Obamacare, is putting all of us back in the driver's seat when it comes to our own health care. While full implementation of reform is being phased in over several years, health care reform has already helped hundreds of thousands of Coloradans access the health care they need.
Between premiums and deductibles, families with coverage spend an average of $5,307 on health care every year. That's 10 percent of average household income, and it doesn't even include co-pays and cost-sharing for office visits, procedures and prescriptions.
The families with coverage are the lucky ones; the number of people in Colorado without insurance has been increasing. More than 800,000 Coloradans have no health care coverage at all. Eighty-five percent of uninsured Coloradans identify high cost as the reason they don't have health insurance, and many cite shrinking employee benefit packages, as well. In just two years, employer-provided health care coverage has slipped significantly, from covering 64 percent of Coloradans to just 58 percent today.
The uninsured are less likely to receive preventive care; are often diagnosed with disease in more advanced stages; and are more likely to die prematurely than individuals with health care insurance. They also are more likely to first access health care through expensive hospital emergency rooms than ordinary office visits because they wait to seek care until a health crisis is well underway.
People without public or private insurance coverage are costly to all of us. In a familiar mechanism called "cost-shifting," hospitals charge higher rates for services to those with insurance in order to offset the losses from uncompensated emergency department care. Insurers raise rates to cover the cost of inflated bills, and the uninsured and underinsured are sent to collection agencies and/or forced into bankruptcy. Companies respond by scaling back on or eliminating health care benefits for their employees, and more Coloradans fall from the insured universe.
Indeed, small businesses have struggled for years with the double whammy of escalating health care premium costs and the inability to secure the better rates that large companies are able to negotiate. Now business owners with fewer than 25 workers may qualify for tax credits to help pay for employee health care benefits, thanks to Obamacare. These tax credits inspired some business owners to start offering health care coverage benefits for the first time and allowed other struggling entrepreneurs to continue offering benefits in a challenging economy.
Obamacare is starting to hold insurance companies accountable, controlling the runaway costs that prevent Coloradans from access to health care. For example, insurers must now justify premium rate hikes. Just last month, the Department of Health and Human Services found that a Pennsylvania insurance company's proposed rate increase of 12 percent was unjustified in relation to the benefits provided, and urged the insurer to rescind the rate, issue refunds or publicly explain their refusal to do so. While some states, including Colorado, were already regulating rate increases, before Obamacare there were no national limits on what insurers could charge as administrative costs. Now at least 80 cents of every dollar must be spent on actual medical care.
Families are getting direct relief from Obamacare as well. Essential preventive care is now considered a basic benefit for those with insurance and is available without co-pays or other cost-sharing because it keeps people healthier. Everyone qualifies for annual checkups. Children may receive immunizations; women can access mammograms, contraception and domestic violence screening; and men benefit from prostate screenings and colonoscopies.
The heartbreaking practice of excluding children from coverage based on even the most minor pre-existing condition is already over because of Obamacare. In 2014, adults will enjoy this protection as well. Young adults just starting in the work world often do not receive health insurance in entry-level jobs and make up 28 percent of the uninsured in Colorado. Now they can stay on their parents' health care plan until age 26.
Another 675,000 Coloradans are underinsured. Many have learned the hard way that their coverage is completely inadequate when diagnosed with a serious chronic illness like lupus or multiple sclerosis. With Obamacare, there is solace for those who find they are underinsured, too. Individuals who are denied needed treatment by their insurance companies will now have a guaranteed appeals process. Insurers will no longer be allowed to place lifetime or annual limits on how much they will pay out to cover claims on policies' covered benefits. Likewise, insurance companies no longer can cancel individual coverage for those who have been diagnosed with serious and expensive illnesses, a practice known as "recission."
A major cost-containment initiative of Obamacare is the exchange. In 2014, Coloradans will be able to purchase affordable insurance in the Colorado Health Benefits Exchange, a statewide nonprofit organization. Intended to be a competitive, online marketplace similar to Travelocity, Coloradans will be able to easily compare insurance plans. Subsidies to purchase a product will be available on a sliding scale based on income (an estimated 590,000 individuals in Colorado will be eligible), meaning many currently uninsured will be able to afford coverage.
While most Coloradans will continue to receive their coverage through work, small businesses and individuals finding it difficult to find affordable health coverage will be able to do so on the exchange, governed by a politically balanced board of directors.
Even members of Congress will receive their health care coverage through the exchange, ensuring that even our elected leaders will have some skin in the game.
But there's more work to be done before 2014. The Colorado Health Exchange Benefits board is tasked with designing the rules and regulations that will govern the exchange. Board members will determine matters like how to achieve seamless coverage as low-to-moderate-income individuals and families change eligibility between public and private insurance, affecting Colorado families in a very real way. The Legislative Implementation Review Committee will oversee the exchange operations.
Since decisions about health care are too important to leave to others, the Colorado Consumer Health Initiative and consumer-focused organizations are helping Coloradans make their voices heard by exchange board members.
For more information, go to thanksobamacare.org.
 
http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_19983680

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Offline Lon371

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Re: Why Obamacare is good for America
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2012, 08:55:34 PM »
 I am curious why they think if a company can not or do not want to pay for insurance, why would they do it now if they get a little tax credit? It is still money out of the buisnesses pocket.
 
Maybe since the fuel prices are falling, buisness are booming they will have extra money to get the insurance now.  ::)
 
Maybe they can regulate prices on food and clothes next ;)
 
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Offline Lost Farmboy

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Re: Why Obamacare is good for America
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2012, 01:15:17 AM »
I am curious why they think if a company can not or do not want to pay for insurance, why would they do it now if they get a little tax credit? It is still money out of the buisnesses pocket.
 
Maybe since the fuel prices are falling, buisness are booming they will have extra money to get the insurance now.  ::)
 
Maybe they can regulate prices on food and clothes next ;)
 
Lonny

 
Or maybe they can just print more money to pay for it all.
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Offline Shu

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Re: Why Obamacare is good for America
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2012, 03:59:14 AM »
Obamacare is so good my daughter's health insurance doubled since it came into effect.
 Thanks Obama I really appreciate the "affordable" health care for everyone.

Offline twoshooter

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Re: Why Obamacare is good for America
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2012, 04:08:06 AM »
I am curious, from the responses so far, and the general tenor of the board here, just what, if anything do the posters frequenting the board think should be publicly paid for?  The military ? I have never been threatened by anyone since Russia fell as a credible threat with the nukes. We still may need some military forces, but certainly not at the level we have,  Police? Since I have very little and am in a position to defend it myself, I really do not need police protection. Firemen ?  If I do not own the structure I am living in, and I can replace everything with minimal renters insurance, why pay for firemen ? Schools ? I have no children in school. Highways ? Everyone who drives pays gas tax, if you don't drive, you don't pat the tax. I look at everything that may be advantageous to every person. Every single one gets sick at some point.
   So, is there anything that you see as something that every person SHOULD be paying for? If so what? Is that supposed to be regardless of any benefit they receive?
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Why Obamacare is good for America
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2012, 04:34:54 AM »
True there are many that don't have good health care . True many companies don't offer HC but many do. What is happening is those with good HC will lose it and be forced to accept govt HC. OH no you say companies can keep what they have , sure they can. Lets see , your company furnishes HC to the employee. The employee pays for his spouse and children. At this point two things will happen. The employee finds his cost on govt HC will be less so he opts for it. At that point the company pays an $8000.00 fine . Or the company has been paying $50000 to $100000 a year in health insurance cost and its competition elects to pay the $8000.00 fine and let its employees go with govt HC. In either case the company will be forced to accept govt. HC to stay in business as cxost will force them to.
In a free country people can seek employment with companies that offer insurance. They can educate themselves to get these jobs. There are many who have nither tried to get a job or get qualifyed to get a good job now they want to take from those who did work and look ahead.
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Offline twoshooter

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Re: Why Obamacare is good for America
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2012, 04:52:57 AM »
The main problem with healthcare is that competition does not serve a regulatory function. For market forces to be effective in regulating price structure there must be price elasticity in the product. For a product to have that elasticity it must be optional, have substitutes, be storeable. A good example of this is cereal grains, the commodity markets reflect it, if beans are too high you can within reason buy corn, wheat , oats, barley, etc. You can also buy the product and store it, because  you know that you will and can use it later, or resell it to someone who can and will. Or, you could choose not to buy it at all and invest in something else.
     Table salt is a good example of relative inelasticity. You do need a certain but small amount to stay healthy. But, regardless of the price you use the same amount. If it goes down you do not put more on your mashed potatoes just because it is cheaper.
     Neither is healthcare elastic. First of all, almost 100% of persons will need some healthcare at some point in their life, and it will not be of their choosing, no one chooses to be ill. When they do get sick, they need treatment specific to the illness. You do not go to the ER with a hot appendix and look at the board and say "wow, they have a special this week on gallbladders, I will have that instead". Their IS no substitution. Next, you cannot say "I may get coronary artery disease some day, so I think I will buy a quadruple bypass now and lock it in at todays prices". First, you are not going to put 100K + into something that may well never happen, two, no surgeon is going to sell you one, you cannot store healthcare.
   Next, you cannot just choose NOT to do something. No sane person is going to DIE just to save money. That does not even deserve consideration. Hell, most conservatives  get some kind of arousal over giving enough pain meds to terminal patients, let alone one decide to commit suicide. There are all kinds of laws on the books regarding endangering the welfare of a child, or the elderly also. No, if you are going to just do without.

     The best model I have seen is the regulated monopoly and co-op model of our local power company. There cannot be a dozen different power lines running into my house, there is one. The company that owns the lines and sells me the power is ultimately owned by ME, and the other subscribers. That company does shop for the component parts and supplies on an open market, say for wire and hardware. The end result is that the co-op at the end of the year calculates the  total cost, their total income, and then distributes any "profit" back to the owner/ subscribers.

    There will be some that advocate for individual healthcare accounts. That has several pitfalls, one, no average person could ever mass enough to cover a truly  serious illness. One auto accident, a mental breakdown, protracted cancer treatments, multiple heart surgeries and treatments, no one could cover it.
Furthermore, just where is that "account" going to e stored? Shearson -Lehman Bros? AIG ??? Who "assures" all those accounts now? The FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. All of those brilliant individuals that want the "Government" out of your lives, pull out your wallet: LOOK at the money- who PRINTS it? Who insures it? Who do you call if someone steals it (except bankers) ? The only activity that is truly government free is direct barter (until they catch you). AND, just WHO profits from aa that money in storage? Why, those same bankers that ripped us off in the mortgage bubble, the tech stock bubble, the real estate bubble, we never really learn do we?
     Insurance originated as cooperative ventures between merchants in medieval times, they all had ships or caravans that were at risk to weather, pirates, bandits, natural disasters etc. They all agreed to pool their resources so that if any of them lost a ship or a caravan they would spread the loss among them so that the one would not be wiped out. It has morphed over the years into the modern hi-tech gambling operation it is today, where risk is calculated out to the n-th degree and the house sets the odds and the house always wins.
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Why Obamacare is good for America
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2012, 04:56:59 AM »
The main problem with healthcare is that competition does not serve a regulatory func

how would one have competition with govt control ?
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Offline SwampThing762

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Re: Why Obamacare is good for America
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2012, 05:24:25 AM »
The main problem with healthcare is that competition does not serve a regulatory func

how would one have competition with govt control ?

That is exactly the crux of the whole Obamacare issue.  The Democrats, under the leadership of His Excellency, Barack Hussein Obama I, have crafted the law in such a way that it crushes competition by healthcare companies; no one can provide services paid at a lower rate.   Medicare and Medicaid pay at the lowest rates, and some commercial insurance carriers base their payment structures on the mcare/mcaid fee schedules mutiplied by a certain percentage (usually between 100% and 200% of the care/caid fee schedule).


Another reason Obamacare is not good for America is the Independent Patient Advisory Board (IPAB), more popularly known as the 'death panels'.      Read the following, and you will learn why Obamacare is truly bad for America (hint, government bureaucrats will kill Grandma throwing her over the cliff, not staged GOP look-alikes):

Obamacare’s Other Unconstitutional Provision by Clint Bolick (Research Fellow)  An agency uncontrollable by Congress, unreviewable by the courts, and virtually unrepealable.

Following the passage of the massive federal health-care bill, inquiring minds wanted to know the dimensions of the new bureaucracy it had created. So the question was put to the Congressional Research Service (CRS): How many new agencies, boards, and commissions were created by the law? Estimates ranged from fifty to the low hundreds. The CRS, with perhaps more research resources available to it than any other entity on earth, scoured the bill and its surrounding context, and finally came up with an answer: The number of new agencies created by Obamacare is “unknowable.”
That is a scary pronouncement. Not only don’t we know the number of new agencies, but we don’t know which ones are the same or separate entities, what the contours of their jurisdictions are, or the extent to which they will intrude upon some of the most important and intimate decisions we make as individuals.
   Obamacare's other unconstitutional provision 
  Illustration by Barbara Kelley  But even scarier is what we do know: that one of the agencies created by Obamacare has the most sweeping, unchecked powers of any regulatory entity ever created by the U.S. government. Its name—the Independent Payment Advisory Board (IPAB)—sounds benign, but it is anything but.
Central to the passage of the federal health-care law was the Obama administration’s assertion—ludicrous on its face yet convincing to enough members of Congress to provide the bill’s razor-thin margin of victory—that the law would contain health-care costs. Central to that assertion, in turn, is IPAB.
Congress invested IPAB with broad powers to control Medicare costs—powers with virtually no limits. Three features combine to make IPAB’s regulatory power unprecedented: its decisions are largely uncontrollable by Congress, its actions are unreviewable by the courts, and—amazingly—the agency’s existence is virtually unrepealable.
Ordinarily, the delegation of legislative power to regulatory agencies is accompanied by numerous safeguards. First, as a matter of separation of powers, courts require that the delegation of regulatory powers be guided and restricted by “intelligible standards.” Second, most regulatory powers are exercised through the administrative rule-making process, which provides for public notice and comment. Third, both Congress and the courts can review the rules. Finally, of course, Congress can repeal the agency or change the delegation of power. None of those safeguards are present with IPAB.
The judiciary is forbidden from reviewing the board's actions.
The law directs IPAB—a 15-member commission appointed by the president with Senate confirmation, and whose composition (unlike most other agencies) need not be bipartisan—to make annual “legislative proposals” starting in 2014 that will result in reducing the per capita rate of growth in Medicare. The law says that certain proposals are off-limits, including any that “ration health care, raise revenues or increase Medicare beneficiary cost sharing (including deductibles, coinsurance, and copayments), or otherwise restrict benefits or modify eligibility requirements.”
There are three whopping problems with this directive. First, if Medicare beneficiaries cannot be required to pay more and their benefits cannot be reduced, there is only one way to achieve cost-containment: to reduce payments to physicians and hospitals. Those reductions will further diminish the number of Medicare providers and/or reduce the quality of care—in essence, creating precisely the de facto rationing of health-care services the bill supposedly prohibits.
Second, crucial terms such as “rationing” are undefined, and the requirements are confusing and contradictory. Elsewhere, the law directs IPAB to “protect and improve Medicare beneficiaries’ access to necessary and evidence-based items and services.” So IPAB is not allowed to ration health care, but it must decide which services are “necessary and evidence-based”—which, of course, is rationing.
Finally, even if the vague statutory constraints on IPAB have any meaning, there is no entity, not the Congress nor the courts, that can effectively police them. IPAB is exempt from normal administrative procedures or safeguards. Congress has an abbreviated period during which to review IPAB proposals; it can only change them in limited ways; and it must do so by a three-fifths majority. If Congress fails to overcome those obstacles, IPAB’s proposals automatically become law. And the judiciary is forbidden from reviewing IPAB’s actions.
Theoretically, Congress can repeal IPAB—but the law appears to limit its ability to do so in bizarre and severe ways. Under the statute, any bill to repeal IPAB must be introduced within the one-month period between January 1 and February 1, 2017. If introduced, it must be enacted by a three-fifths super-majority no later than August 15, 2017. If passed, the IPAB repeal will not become effective until 2020—leaving an out-of-control agency in operation for three years after Congress votes to abolish it.
IPAB’s defenders point to other agencies, such as the Base Closure and Realignment Commission, which were exempt from ordinary administrative processes and had abbreviated congressional reviews of their proposals. But no agency in our nation’s history has been given the power to make binding law in a manner so unaccountable, uncontrollable, or unreviewable as IPAB—and none has been essentially immunized against its own demise.
Unlike most other agencies, IPAB's membership does not need to be bipartisan.
Even advocacy groups that otherwise supported Obamacare raised concerns about IPAB. After all, if the agency rations health care or further reduces the number of physicians and hospitals that accept Medicare, it will adversely affect many people who need health care. The American Medical Association (AMA), which supported the bill, warned that IPAB is “an independent body comprised of un-elected officials, with broad discretionary authority to make radical changes in the structure of the Medicare program.”  The AMA was joined in its opposition by 74 groups representing millions of Medicare beneficiaries and service providers, along with over 100 members of Congress from both parties who expressed their concerns about the erosion of congressional authority over Medicare in a letter to then-House Speaker Nancy Pelosi. Retiring Rep. Barney Frank (D-MA) recently signed on to a Republican-sponsored bill to repeal IPAB.
Then why doesn’t Congress simply repeal IPAB? After all, one Congress cannot bind a subsequent Congress, right? While that is—or should be—true, the problem is that efforts to repeal IPAB outside of the narrow parameters provided by the health-care law can be ruled out of order by congressional parliamentarians. The same is true of congressional efforts to control IPAB’s actions.
Because of those limits, the Goldwater Institute filed a lawsuit in federal district court in Phoenix to challenge IPAB. By limiting its repeal, Congress unconstitutionally “entrenched” IPAB, preventing members of Congress from effectively representing their constituents. As Thomas Jefferson explained, were a legislature to “pass any act, and declare it shall be irrevocable by subsequent assemblies, the declaration is merely void, and the act repealable, as other acts are.” The Supreme Court affirmed Jefferson’s admonition in an 1879 case, proclaiming, “It is vital to the public welfare that each [legislature] should be able at all times to do whatever the varying circumstances and present exigencies touching the subject involved may require. A different result would be fraught with evil.”
The Goldwater Institute’s lawsuit challenges IPAB’s very existence as an unlawful delegation of congressional power. Although most of the legal challenges to Obamacare have focused on the individual mandate to purchase government-prescribed health insurance, IPAB is no less central to the overall regulatory scheme. Many members of Congress voted for Obamacare only when convinced of the dubious premise that the law would constrain health-care costs. If IPAB is removed, the flimsy cost-containment rationale will disappear as well.
The district court will hear arguments over the constitutionality of IPAB in the coming months. Central to those arguments is Justice Antonin Scalia’s clairvoyant warning 22 years ago that unless the constitutional prohibition against the delegation of legislative power was enforced, Congress could create “‘expert’ bodies, insulated from the political process, to which Congress [could] delegate various portions of its lawmaking responsibility.”
“How tempting,” Scalia wrote, “to create an expert Medical Commission . . . to dispose of such thorny, ‘no-win’ political issues as the withholding of life-support systems in federally funded hospitals.”
Scalia’s not-so-hypothetical musing is today’s reality. As my colleague Diane Cohen, the lead lawyer in the Goldwater Institute’s lawsuit, has testified before Congress, IPAB is “‘independent’ in the worst sense of the word: it is independent of Congress, the President, the judiciary and the American people.” IPAB is a death panel not only by virtue of its awesome powers to control health-care decisions for millions of Americans, but because its creation and existence are antithetical to our republican form of government and the freedoms it was designed to protect.

Clint Bolick is a research fellow at the Hoover Institution and also serves as the director of the Goldwater Institute Center for Constitutional Litigation in Phoenix. Before joining the Goldwater Institute in 2007, Bolick was litigation director of the Institute for Justice, a libertarian public interest firm that he cofounded in 1991, and president of the Alliance for School Choice, a national nonprofit educational policy group advocating school choice programs across the country.




I do realize, however, that all of the stalwart resident liberals and Obama sympathizers will disregard this erudite piece of information.    In any event, this is what your President wants for your healthcare.  Oh, and, by the way, members of Congress, along with their staff and families, are exempt from Obamacare.

Crusty,  because of Obamacare my insurance premiums have risen 17%.   


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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Why Obamacare is good for America
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2012, 05:31:31 AM »
reality , they dumbed down America to the point 1/2 the people can't take care of themselves anymore.
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Offline magooch

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Re: Why Obamacare is good for America
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2012, 05:37:13 AM »
I am curious, from the responses so far, and the general tenor of the board here, just what, if anything do the posters frequenting the board think should be publicly paid for?  The military ? I have never been threatened by anyone since Russia fell as a credible threat with the nukes. We still may need some military forces, but certainly not at the level we have,  Police? Since I have very little and am in a position to defend it myself, I really do not need police protection. Firemen ?  If I do not own the structure I am living in, and I can replace everything with minimal renters insurance, why pay for firemen ? Schools ? I have no children in school. Highways ? Everyone who drives pays gas tax, if you don't drive, you don't pat the tax. I look at everything that may be advantageous to every person. Every single one gets sick at some point.
   So, is there anything that you see as something that every person SHOULD be paying for? If so what? Is that supposed to be regardless of any benefit they receive?

Everyone gets hungry now and then, so maybe we need hunger insurance and oh yeah, roof over your head insurance and transportation insurance.  How about the government just get out of the way and let people take care of themselves.  Oh, but that would mean some people will get better care, or some people might even die.
 
The government is not meant to assure equality of outcome; it's only responsibility should be to opt for equal opportunity, but even that has necessary limits.  Unless of course you are into Obamunism, where everyone is equally miserable.
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Why Obamacare is good for America
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2012, 05:40:51 AM »
its impossible to make everyone happy but easy to make everyone miserable .
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Offline lakota

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Re: Why Obamacare is good for America
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2012, 05:49:48 AM »
its impossible to make everyone happy but easy to make everyone miserable .

I think you just summarized the liberal agenda in one sentence.
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Offline BUGEYE

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Re: Why Obamacare is good for America
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2012, 06:02:21 AM »
our insurance premiums went up 50% on january 1.
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Offline powderman

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Re: Why Obamacare is good for America
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2012, 06:06:11 AM »
Quote
Maybe since the fuel prices are falling, buisness are booming they will have extra money to get the insurance now.  ::)

 
Certainly not here, gas went up over 30 cts in the past wk or so. POWDERMAN.  :o :o
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Offline twoshooter

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Re: Why Obamacare is good for America
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2012, 07:29:11 AM »
IF you want to totally remove government , that is OK by me. It will never happen as there has arisen some form of government ever since man had fire. I don't think you are wanting to remove government, you just want to remove the part YOU don't like, or see direct benefit from.
    The above posts are a little it off. They state that "Obamacare" was written in such a way as to remove competition from the process. I was stating that competetion CANNOT WHEN PRESENT successfully regulate and lower the cost of healthcare, due to the nature of the product. I dare say that my  total healthcare expenditures exceed the vast majority of the whiners here, mine run in excess of 25% of my total compensation package. I also imagine that I make less adjusted gross income that most here, if not, you need to be out picking up aluminum cans along the highway instead of spending time here. The base story here is that you want to throw the coach class passengers of the ship so you can have more room. I don't buy that argument. Now IF you want to go ahead and sink the ship, and we can see how well everybody swims, that just might be interesting.... ;) 8)   
1000 years ago Men KNEW the Earth was the center of the Universe.....500 years ago Men KNEW the world was flat....... 15 minutes ago you KNEW man was alone in the universe.... Just IMAGINE what we will know tomorrow !! "K"- from Men in Black.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Why Obamacare is good for America
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2012, 07:54:38 AM »
What I was saying is when govt. sets the rules then enters the market no one wins that pays ! The winners are the ones that do not contribute . Small business that provides insurance now will no longer be able to do so.
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline twoshooter

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Re: Why Obamacare is good for America
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2012, 09:41:43 AM »
OK, lets get to an even more basic level, that just about anyone can understand. You don't like people that do not contribute DIRECTLY being able to take advantage of goods and services they do not pay DIRECTLY for. First of all, remember that EVERYONE contributes, even if indirectly. Landlords still make money from public housing, grocers still make profit off food stamps, as do farmers. So lets use a basic biological example. Bacteria. It is one of the most simple, lowest forms of life. There are all kind of anti-bacterial, antibiotic products out there, cleaners, bleaches, medications etc to kill bacteria. The long term effects of those products are not yet known, and many are already known to present hazards of their own.
    Without bacteria, we would all die. Bacteria digests out food, keeps our stomach and intestines functioning, it allows us to make cheese and other products from milk, other strains eat oil spills. Killing all bacteria would be worse than stupid, it would be suicidal.
     Bacteria lives off us. It is parasitical. Many bacteria are not beneficial, they causes many infections and diseases. We have and will continue to live with them, and they will live off us. Because, if we were to use a sufficiently broad spectrum and strong enough antibiotic to kill them, we also kill the ones that make our lives possible. The effort, cost,  and results of totally eliminating all parasites is to  consuming, to high, and to unpredictable in its consequences to be a desirable  goal or outcome.
1000 years ago Men KNEW the Earth was the center of the Universe.....500 years ago Men KNEW the world was flat....... 15 minutes ago you KNEW man was alone in the universe.... Just IMAGINE what we will know tomorrow !! "K"- from Men in Black.

Offline DDZ

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Re: Why Obamacare is good for America
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2012, 10:23:53 AM »
First of all, remember that EVERYONE contributes, even if indirectly.
 

What does one contribute that does not work, does not pay taxes, collects welfare, and other goodies from the public treasury?

Those people who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants.    Wm. Penn

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Why Obamacare is good for America
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2012, 10:30:13 AM »
First of all, remember that EVERYONE contributes, even if indirectly.
 

What does one contribute that does not work, does not pay taxes, collects welfare, and other goodies from the public treasury?

some confuse bacteria with leaches
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline twoshooter

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Re: Why Obamacare is good for America
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2012, 10:51:27 AM »
That could be true. However, the leaches are excellent bass bait, and they are also used to reduce swelling in very sensitive surgery because they have the ability to drew blood by osmosis through skin without penetrating it. I have not yet found a good use for a tick, but I am looking . I know Guineas like to eat 'em.
    As for "productive" , everything has to have a certain amount of "inert material" or "filler". It serves a function simply by its existence, even if it is not readily apparent. The amount of material in a tablet form of medication is often more than 90% inert material, because the actual active ingredient is so small that it could not be handled, measured or sold conveniently, or might be absorbed to rapidly. Just because you don't know the function of something is not obviously apparent is not proof that it does not have one. ;)
1000 years ago Men KNEW the Earth was the center of the Universe.....500 years ago Men KNEW the world was flat....... 15 minutes ago you KNEW man was alone in the universe.... Just IMAGINE what we will know tomorrow !! "K"- from Men in Black.

Offline buffermop

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Re: Why Obamacare is good for America
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2012, 11:08:39 AM »
I have no experience with the Obama insurance plan, but I blame the doctors and health care institututions  just ripping us off with their  charges. They should be control over this. Its seems crazy that a hospital can get away charging $5 for an asprin. Medical procedures must be regulated by price within resonable rates.The more insurance companies pay out, the more the premiums go up.

Offline SwampThing762

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Re: Why Obamacare is good for America
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2012, 01:13:19 PM »
Buffermop,

The biggest contributing factor to the outrageous cost of healthcare is the elements of society who have no insurance, want no insurance, want free medical care by going to the ER, and then refuse to pay for services because there is no legal means to compel payment.   Federal law requires treatment of any patient regardless of ability to pay, but it boils down more of a choice of
Making payment.    The refusal to pay of self-pay patients makes all other costs rise as part of the cost of doing business.   A repeal of EMTALA would go a long way in health care reform.

ST762
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Offline gypsyman

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Re: Why Obamacare is good for America
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2012, 02:05:13 PM »
Anybody in love with Obama's health care, ought to move to England or Canada. Maybe you like paying 80% or more in tax's, I don't. Check out their price's on consumers goods, and that's where you'll see the extra. Gas,smokes,clothing,alcohol,etc. Let govt. loose and they'll spend every dollar you have, and your kids dollar too. Oh, they've already done that haven't they. Ah well, what's another trillion or 2. gypsyman
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Offline lakota

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Re: Why Obamacare is good for America
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2012, 04:18:07 PM »
First of all, remember that EVERYONE contributes, even if indirectly.
 

What does one contribute that does not work, does not pay taxes, collects welfare, and other goodies from the public treasury?

They contribute to maintaining your lower back health. When you sit on a wallet full of money your pelvis isn't level and this can lead to the development of long term chronic back pain and numbness and tingling in the legs. By way of osmosis these folks ensure that your wallet stays empty thus maintaining the delicate balance of your pelvis and protecting you lumbar region from undue strain.
Hi NSA! Can you see how many fingers I am holding up?

Offline Empty Quiver

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Re: Why Obamacare is good for America
« Reply #25 on: February 20, 2012, 06:55:50 PM »
I would like to be well fed, well clothed, opulently sheltered, and lavishly entertained for free too. I'll be honest with all of you work is really cramping my leisure time too I want something done about that .


Where do I vote for all that?
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Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Why Obamacare is good for America
« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2012, 07:20:13 PM »
Obama care can not be good for America.
It does nothing to address the costs of health care.
It does more to increase the costs to the doctor and therefore to the payer of the health care.
It tries ot transfer the costs to the health insurance companies, they in turn pass those costs on to the consumer.
Also the consumer is wanting the insurance companies to cover more and more.
What would your oil change  or car wash cost if you were not paying for it and your car insurance was?  What would your car insurance cost if they covered everything?
It also does nothing to make those that get health care for free pay for it. 
If something costs nothing you are either going to have a run on the good or it will be worth what you pay.  So everyone is going to the doctor for a bandaid and an asprin or the service is going to fall.
Obama said the goal was a single payer system.

Offline DDZ

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Re: Why Obamacare is good for America
« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2012, 11:43:08 PM »
First of all, remember that EVERYONE contributes, even if indirectly.
 

What does one contribute that does not work, does not pay taxes, collects welfare, and other goodies from the public treasury?

They contribute to maintaining your lower back health. When you sit on a wallet full of money your pelvis isn't level and this can lead to the development of long term chronic back pain and numbness and tingling in the legs. By way of osmosis these folks ensure that your wallet stays empty thus maintaining the delicate balance of your pelvis and protecting you lumbar region from undue strain.

I have heard of messing up your back by sitting on to fat of a wallet. So welfare recipients do contribute something to society. 
Those people who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants.    Wm. Penn

Offline DDZ

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Re: Why Obamacare is good for America
« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2012, 11:53:15 PM »
I would like to be well fed, well clothed, opulently sheltered, and lavishly entertained for free too. I'll be honest with all of you work is really cramping my leisure time too I want something done about that .


Where do I vote for all that?

EQ, I think if you just go to your local voting district close your eyes and vote, you will be most likely to vote for people that will help you out in feeding, clothing, housing, and entertaining you. If you want to be absolutely sure you get people that will provide you with all that stuff just pull the democrat lever. In no time at all you will be able to quit your job. Heck why not quit now since all that stuff appears to be free from the public trough. Plus you will now get free health care. What more could we want.  ;D   
Those people who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants.    Wm. Penn

Offline lakota

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Re: Why Obamacare is good for America
« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2012, 04:43:45 AM »
First of all, remember that EVERYONE contributes, even if indirectly.
 

What does one contribute that does not work, does not pay taxes, collects welfare, and other goodies from the public treasury?

They contribute to maintaining your lower back health. When you sit on a wallet full of money your pelvis isn't level and this can lead to the development of long term chronic back pain and numbness and tingling in the legs. By way of osmosis these folks ensure that your wallet stays empty thus maintaining the delicate balance of your pelvis and protecting you lumbar region from undue strain.

I have heard of messing up your back by sitting on to fat of a wallet. So welfare recipients do contribute something to society.

I was wrong in my first post-they dont do it via osmosis its done via facilitated diffusion in which a carrier protein known as IRS attaches to a molecule of money in your intrawallet space and carries it away for redistribution

Of course you could always do without the facilitated diffusion of welfare and do as this chiropractor says and carry your wallet in your front pocket:
 
http://youtu.be/b4Yh7SI2JuY
Hi NSA! Can you see how many fingers I am holding up?