Author Topic: Chamber Firing  (Read 1388 times)

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Offline Spirithawk

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Chamber Firing
« on: February 20, 2012, 03:31:28 PM »
As we all know, chamber firing is when multiple chambers of a black powder revolver fire simutaneously when the trigger is pulled. It was long thought that flame, and or sparks, from the fired chamber flashed over igniting the other chambers if they weren't properly sealed. That is why most folks top the loaded chambers off with some form of grease. However that may not be the case. I always wondered about that as it would seem to me the over sized ball forced into a chamber would pretty much effectively seal it on it's own. I recently read an article that made a lot of sense. It claimed that chamber firing is actualy caused by loose fitting percusion caps. When one is fired the sparks are able to get underneath the other loosely fitting caps causing multiple chambers to fire. Makes perfect sense to me and all the grease in the mouths of the chambers couldn't hurt but still won't stop chamber firing. Felt it's something we all need to know about.

Offline keith44

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Re: Chamber Firing
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2012, 05:53:35 PM »
I think you are correct about the chain fire being caused mostly by sparks reaching under the cap, or possibly getting into the chamber from the nipple some how.  Do not discount the role of the grease over the ball though, nor when used with hollow based "bullets".  The ballet for instance does not seal the bore completely.  Grease in front of the round ball is to put a coating of lube in the barrel to help keep fouling manageable.  Ever shoot one enough to lock up the cylinder??  Happens quicker without the grease. I get better groups using a felt wad under the ball, and a grease patch over the ball.  With the ballets I put extra grease on the bullet sides, and a stiff lube in the hollow base, plus a grease patch at the chamber end. 


Try for yourself, 18 rounds without the extra lube.  Post pictures of the group sizes, then 18 with the lube, and post those pics

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Offline Spirithawk

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Re: Chamber Firing
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2012, 06:44:41 PM »
I think you are correct about the chain fire being caused mostly by sparks reaching under the cap, or possibly getting into the chamber from the nipple some how.  Do not discount the role of the grease over the ball though, nor when used with hollow based "bullets".  The ballet for instance does not seal the bore completely.  Grease in front of the round ball is to put a coating of lube in the barrel to help keep fouling manageable.  Ever shoot one enough to lock up the cylinder??  Happens quicker without the grease. I get better groups using a felt wad under the ball, and a grease patch over the ball.  With the ballets I put extra grease on the bullet sides, and a stiff lube in the hollow base, plus a grease patch at the chamber end. 


Try for yourself, 18 rounds without the extra lube.  Post pictures of the group sizes, then 18 with the lube, and post those pics

I agree. I use the felt wads myself and I'll use grease over the ball too. One can never be too careful. Heck, with the Walker having 5 chambers loaded you're looking at 300 grains of powder in the cylinder. Better safe than sorry. I've seen the  end results of chamber fires and even at best it was never pretty.   

Offline Fingers McGee

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Re: Chamber Firing
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2012, 06:53:26 AM »
I agree. I use the felt wads myself and I'll use grease over the ball too. One can never be too careful. Heck, with the Walker having 5 chambers loaded you're looking at 300 grains of powder in the cylinder. Better safe than sorry. I've seen the  end results of chamber fires and even at best it was never pretty.

I'm assuming that you are talking about Chain Fires, wherein one chamber ignition sets off others in the cylinder.  The best insurance against chain fires is properly sized, tight fitting balls and caps.  If your ballets are loose in the cylinder, you shouldn't be usingthem.  Using lubed wads and grease over the ball is akin to wearing a belt with suspenders.  Either will prevent a chain fire and provide some lube to the arbor to keep the cylinder from freezing up.  Use of both is IMNSHO is a waste of resources.  I can shoot my revolvers for 50+ rounds (2 day CAS match) and not experience the cylinder binding up.  My arbors are lubed with bore butter and I use lubed wads between the powder and ball.
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Offline keith44

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Re: Chamber Firing
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2012, 07:04:22 AM »
I agree. I use the felt wads myself and I'll use grease over the ball too. One can never be too careful. Heck, with the Walker having 5 chambers loaded you're looking at 300 grains of powder in the cylinder. Better safe than sorry. I've seen the  end results of chamber fires and even at best it was never pretty.

I'm assuming that you are talking about Chain Fires, wherein one chamber ignition sets off others in the cylinder.  The best insurance against chain fires is properly sized, tight fitting balls and caps. If your ballets are loose in the cylinder, you shouldn't be usingthem.  Using lubed wads and grease over the ball is akin to wearing a belt with suspenders.  Either will prevent a chain fire and provide some lube to the arbor to keep the cylinder from freezing up.  Use of both is IMNSHO is a waste of resources.  I can shoot my revolvers for 50+ rounds (2 day CAS match) and not experience the cylinder binding up.  My arbors are lubed with bore butter and I use lubed wads between the powder and ball.


Not loose, but since they are not shaved at loading and the skirt that forms the hollow base obturates at firing to fill the rifling grooves as the bullet passes into the forcing cone and on into the barrel.  Thus they do not seal the chamber.
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Offline Fingers McGee

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Re: Chamber Firing
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2012, 06:17:37 AM »
Not loose, but since they are not shaved at loading and the skirt that forms the hollow base obturates at firing to fill the rifling grooves as the bullet passes into the forcing cone and on into the barrel.  Thus they do not seal the chamber.
I've never used the ballets.  Always thought they were too expensive for the amount I shoot.  What is your cost and what kind of accuracy are you getting from them?   And how much are you shooting?  My '61 Navies with fffg, lubed wad and .380 roundball will produce a 1  1/2 inch group at 15 yds off hand duelist style.  And I put over 1000 rounds through them last year.
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Offline keith44

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Re: Chamber Firing
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2012, 06:42:34 AM »
I'm not shootin' cap n ball much any more, I've had the revolver long enough that I've had to rebuild it twice (new springs, new indexing hand, and more nipple sets than I can remember)  When I started with it I bought the gun for 69 bucks delivered to my door. 


Accuracy wise it depends.  At 20 yards there is little difference between the two.  Closer in the balls shoot to the sights, further out, like in a hunting situation, the ballets offer better penetration and hold to the sights better.  Loaded over 28 grains of 3F, or 24 grains of 2F I can hold on a 8" target at 50 yards.


At a 1,000 rounds per year, I'd stick with the round ball, but if you are like me now and get to where you are not shooting competitively give em a try.

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Offline Fingers McGee

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Re: Chamber Firing
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2012, 01:35:37 PM »
Thanks for the info Keith.  I may just give em a try
Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee
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Offline Pulp

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Re: Chamber Firing
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2012, 04:40:08 PM »
I've found the ball-ets are less accurate than round balls.  Not any difference at CAS distances, but on out there you'll see it.  Shooting at gopher mounds at long range with the ball-ets I might hit 20 or 30 yards from POA.  They are difficult to seat squarely in the chambers, always seem to be leaning one way or the other.  Maybe loaded on a Tower of Power I could get them square, but not loading on the pistol.
 
As far as the OP says, chainfires can happen from either end.  I once had a '58 that was bad about one chainfire/load.  I finally found that one of the shoulders on one nipple had broken off, and you could see down into the threads on that side.  But I've also had chainfires from undersized balls.  I know better now, check the nipples and make sure the bullets shave lead.
 
I've never messed with overpowder fiber wads, but now that I have a set of wad cutters, I may start trying some.
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Offline Needles

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Re: Chamber Firing
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2012, 04:42:26 PM »
Years ago, an old-timer told me that the Walker Colt was designed to be a battlefield revolver. They made the chambers in the cylinder deep enough that, with the recommended 35 grain load, there was less chance of a chainfire even if the soldier skipped the grease over the ball. But, being soldiers, they all just added more powder to the chamber. With the quality of the metal back then, that tendency to overload is what gave the Walker Colt the reputation for occasionally exploding. Seems logical to me, but every time I mention this, Walker fans tell me I'm completely wrong and all my kids' teeth will grow in crooked. From everything I've been able to find, though, Sam Colt DID recommend a much smaller charge than is often used. I shoot a Remington, FWIW.
 :)
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Offline Gatofeo

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Re: Chamber Firing
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2012, 05:48:39 PM »
I've never run across a 19th century reference to using lubricated wads in a cap and ball revolver. The earliest printed reference I've found is a 1928 American Rifleman, though it's obvious that it was an established practice in 1928.
Similarly, I've never seen a reference to putting lubricant over seated projectiles to prevent multiple ignition ("chain fire"). When grease, wax or some kind of substance is put over the projectile, it's almost always referred to as a waterproofing measure to keep dampness from the powder, not for lubrication.
That said, I'm sure that the advantages of lubrication were discovered early on, even if it was just a quick spit into the cylinder after loading the chambers (soliders are a practical lot).
There are also references to wax (presumably tallow or beeswax from candles) placed around the caps to ensure waterproofing.
The late gun writer Elmer Keith suggested the use of a  lubricated felt wad between ball and powder in his 1955 book, "Sixguns." This is where I first learned of the practice, and began doing so in the mid 1970s. Though Keith wrote that Civil War veterans he knew around Helena, Montana showed him how to load his original 1851 Navy (when he was 12, about 1910), he never once says that they showed him the trick of using lubricated wads.
Alas, some have claimed that such wads were used in the West, but there is no evidence to support this.
I am uncertain what the expected load was for the Walker, when issued to the Army. So few of these revolvers were made, and the use of paper cartridges came after their adoption. When paper cartridges did arrive, they were for the Dragoons. Of course. Dragoon paper cartridges could be used in the Walker.
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