Different take on the ubiquitous best gun threads

[teamnelson]

hopefully i wont get caught with my pants down and only a 3030 single shot.

Aww, c'mon ... all these best gun threads are hypothetical anyway. Brainstorm it for a moment, and see if you could make it do. Then tell us how you'd do it. Its like the old leadership reaction course ... no right answer, just a fixed tool kit and an obstacle.

[Lost Farmboy]

 

I first heard of the tong tool here on GBO. I googled it and could not find much about them. Couldn't find one for sale and thought they were not made any more. It looks like calibers are limited. Will they use standard dies or are you limited to the ones on this page? It looks like a good choice for those going with the 357 lever/revolver combo. Lee seems to have a wider choice of calibers and you can buy 2 for the price of the tong tool without the dies.
 
http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/dies/lyman-310-tool.php

[teamnelson]

 

I first heard of the tong tool here on GBO. I googled it and could not find much about them. Couldn't find one for sale and thought they were not made any more. It looks like calibers are limited. Will they use standard dies or are you limited to the ones on this page? It looks like a good choice for those going with the 357 lever/revolver combo. Lee seems to have a wider choice of calibers and you can buy 2 for the price of the tong tool without the dies.
 
http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/dies/lyman-310-tool.php

I found a guy who makes dies for the 310 tool in just about every caliber known to man, but one set costs as much as 2 sets for the Lee, and as noted, it only sizes the case mouth. Just the handles are more than a Lee Press. After the conversation here, and doing some more research, I'm sticking with the lee hand press. Its bulkier, but not much heavier, and definitely more cost effective, and the same dies can be used in a bench mounted press.

[bilmac]

That is the Lyman page so I suppose that is all the dies they make. They used to make a lot more. They work well for the pistol calibers, it's more of an easy chair operation. than the Lee tool. I'm surprised they continued the 30-30 dies because as I said neck sizing will only let you load a few times before you have to full length size in springy actions. I used mine for a 270 bolt gun and I suppose I could get 10 or 12 fill ups before the cases got too tight in the chamber.

[Couger]

..... neck sizing will only let you load a few times before you have to full length size in springy actions. I used mine for a 270 bolt gun and I suppose I could get 10 or 12 fill ups before the cases got too tight in the chamber. 

Thats when to get out that basic, "beat em bang em pound on em" cheapo Lee Loaders!
 
I've killed several gaminals with ammo built with one of those tools in .270W (including pronghorns, elk and mulies).
 
One has to stll pay critical attention to case stretching, length and trimming, but a Lee Loader makes beautiful ammo albeit SLOWLY.     
 
Extra tools I would recommend include a rawhide or plastic mallet, (balance) powder mesaure scale!, and a case trimmer of some kind.  Tossing in a case tumbler might be nice now and then.
 
On eBay .... (not that I love them or do their advertising!)   
 
Whether looking for a Lee Loader or one of those old Lyman (tong) 310 hand presses, do a directed search on eBay for them!  Every cartridge I can imagine to think of I have eventually seen in a Lee Loader!  (I am 100% 'literal' about this!!)  Of course some of those were made in the early 1960's, but they still work fine if the LLoader is clean and not rusty and UNdamaged. 
 
I've seen Lee Loaders in .375H&H, .22Hornet, .222Remy or RemMag, .221Fireball, 6mm Mauser, 7mm sharp & Hart, 6.5mm Sweede and Carcano, .32Special, .218Bee, .264WinMag, .45/70, .25-20WiCF, .303 Savage and British, and countless other weird or common selections.  Lee Precision still makes some selections, though not all.
 
A LLoader usually sells for less than $30 bucks regardless of age or cartridge, altho finding a weird, unpopular selection may take awhile.  Just use the 'directed search' feature and be patient!  (I'm batting nearly 1,000 with everything unusual hoped to find via eBay, altho some items took "months" to show up). 
 
Those 310 tools take many parts, but sometimes they're on [often] on eBay too, altho "often" might be relative.     

[SHOOTALL]

loading on the fly might work but it will be difficult . In reality the weight of the powder can , primer packaging , bullet containers and loading equipment would be compared aginst the extra brass of extra cartriges. In reality that's the trade. Then consider if you take a dunking what would withstand the soaking better sealed rounds or canister powder and loose primers ?

[teamnelson]

loading on the fly might work but it will be difficult . In reality the weight of the powder can , primer packaging , bullet containers and loading equipment would be compared aginst the extra brass of extra cartriges. In reality that's the trade. Then consider if you take a dunking what would withstand the soaking better sealed rounds or canister powder and loose primers ?

I think you're right, would be wise to load all empties soonest I think.

[bilmac]

Just speculation here, but I think many of the early mtn men reloaded for their blackpowder cartridge guns. Even dug bullets out of critters and recast them. It probably depends on how long you expect to be "away"

[SHOOTALL]

what i read about the mt men they did save lead but even when caps replaced flint locks they stayed with flint as they could find and replace as needed . some guns for india and africa had one cap or flint set up on one bbl and a cart. set up on the other .

[bilmac]

With a straight wall cartridge case like the 45-70 and low pressures, and a single shot rifle you might be able to skip all the sizing and expanding steps we have to do with modern guns. A big ol lead bullet held in place by the viscocity of the bullet lube would do.

[Couger]

In my last post I mentioned the 310 Lyman tong-style reloader purely for the folks interested in them, and because I've seen them listed with Lee Loaders on eBay, but I haven't gone down that path.
 
Lee Loaders I believe in alot!  Esp if added to one's 'kit' was a small piece of aluminum not bigger than a 3X5 card!  (or small enough to fit in the lid of a LL box) 
 
With a mallet and fairly firm surface and that aluminum to set your Lee loader on, a fellow could "reload" anywhere as long as he had the components and a few careful minutes to do it.  Firmly but carefully "pound" the size body over the brass and its reiszed adequately!
 
Of course if bad guys are chasing you, you aren't hunting!  Unless for them perhaps?  But if BG's are bearing down on ya, better have more than enough ammo until that threat is gone!!
 
The .45/70 case is interesting - big and robust, but tapered unfortunately so it presents a few unique challenges.  The .444 Marlin case is also (less) tapered but not nearly as voluminous as a .45/70 case.  Both of those have been the subject on boards discussing how to try to design with them shotshells as well as small game and big game loadings.
 
They both show real potential though. 

[Lost Farmboy]

 
The do-all .30-06: from mice to moose, the venerable '06 can take 'em all
 
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_11_50/ai_n6209996/



Good article about reloading for the 30 06 for everything. Easy to adapt to 30 30.

[Lost Farmboy]

  I do not see much about defense against multiple attackers. With only a single shot 30 30 when others have AKs, ARs and semi auto hand guns stealth would be important. I would want a sniper Manuel. I would get or make a ghillie suit. A suppressor would be good for hunting and defense. I would also want night vision goggles and night vision scope. In the mountains on a starry moon lit night in the summer you can't see you hand six inches in front of your face.

[mechanic]

I'd be perfectly happy with the dirty thirty, a 170 gr. mold and reloading supplies.  Hard cast lead even in a thirty can do the job.
 
Mine would be a Handi, and I would take an extra transfer bar or two if I could, maybe a hammer spring.
 
Ben

[teamnelson]

There are several kinds of defense against attackers aren't there?

- mixed bag of handguns and shotguns, favored tools of urban thugs. If I can't avoid them and have determined hostility, I'd engage at 200 yds where the 30-30 is still shooting 3moa and 900ft lbs of energy.
- platoon of Ravenwood with TO weapons. If I can't avoid them and they're hostile I'll take at least 2 of them with me to Valhalla.

There are no snipers in the defense, it's purely offensive. You are killing someone who is unaware of your presence and intent. With a 30-30 sniper rifle I'd pick my targets carefully if at all.

I see defense alone against a numerically superior and better armed party the functional urban equivalent of a bear attack in the woods ... possible, not highly probable, and mostly avoidable. And not a kobiyashi maru event either. One man with a crappy 8mm bolt gun tied up my battalion for weeks. He stuck around though which I wouldn't do.

[mechanic]

There are several kinds of defense against attackers aren't there?

- mixed bag of handguns and shotguns, favored tools of urban thugs. If I can't avoid them and have determined hostility, I'd engage at 200 yds where the 30-30 is still shooting 3moa and 900ft lbs of energy.
- platoon of Ravenwood with TO weapons. If I can't avoid them and they're hostile I'll take at least 2 of them with me to Valhalla.

There are no snipers in the defense, it's purely offensive. You are killing someone who is unaware of your presence and intent. With a 30-30 sniper rifle I'd pick my targets carefully if at all.

I see defense alone against a numerically superior and better armed party the functional urban equivalent of a bear attack in the woods ... possible, not highly probable, and mostly avoidable. And not a kobiyashi maru event either. One man with a crappy 8mm bolt gun tied up my battalion for weeks. He stuck around though which I wouldn't do.

A smart man will avoid what he cannot win against if at all possible and live to fight another day....on HIS terms. 
 
The best gunfight is one where you don't have to use your gun.
 
Ben

[Lost Farmboy]

There are no snipers in the defense, it's purely offensive. You are killing someone who is unaware of your presence and intent. With a 30-30 sniper rifle I'd pick my targets carefully if at all.

 
That's what I thought at first. Then I started to think about the movie “Shooter”. He was basic being hunted by a lawless organization. He used his sniper skills to defend himself. I would only shoot in self defense.
 
Quigley Down Under was another example of a man with sniper skills defending himself. Single shot rifle against multiple attackers with repeating rifles and revolvers.
 
I think the most useful skill of the sniper is to get away undetected. If I can do this I may never have to shoot. If I am being hunted by multiple attackers I would be forced to take them out one at a time. My main reason for a sniper manual is that an undetected man will never be a target.
 
Ben is right, the best gun fight is one where you don't have to use your gun.

[bilmac]

Sniping can be used very effectively in a withdrawal[retreat]. You plan an escape route to another position, you shoot causing a casualty and run to the next position. The enemy has to deploy and advance carefully to avoid getting hit again. Giving the sniper time to move.Repeat repeat repeat.

The best country to do this is across a series of ridges. The sniper shoots from a ridge top, and moves to the next

[mcwoodduck]

Sniping can be used very effectively in a withdrawal[retreat]. You plan an escape route to another position, you shoot causing a casualty and run to the next position. The enemy has to deploy and advance carefully to avoid getting hit again. Giving the sniper time to move.Repeat repeat repeat.

The best country to do this is across a series of ridges. The sniper shoots from a ridge top, and moves to the next

This only works with NON communist troops.
Communst troops will shoot the wounded and move on.
The idea of the M16 was to wound a soviet troop and take 5 guy out of action (one wounded and 4 carying him) when we fought the Viet Namese they shot the wounded and moved on.

[teamnelson]

The only problem with sniping is that you've given the enemy focus. The character in shooter did not snipe in the defense, he sniped and counter sniped. He was not caught out, he initiated contact, and carried through until extraction or his enemies were all dead. At best you want to break contact, not drag through a long term cat and mouse.

[tacklebury]

If you have a firearm that can handle the really extended range sniping, ie. 1200 meters or more, you can often get a few hits in prior to them getting a full lock down on you.  With any military, however, once that happens your life expectancy just took a major dump.  Using a silenced and suppressed rifle gives you a lot of benefits although making them bulkier.  I don't think unless I had a .50 cal or .338 Lapua or maybe a .416 Barrett based rifle I'd even consider sniping.  There's nothing to sneeze about .30-06 or .308 up to 1200, but few can get beyond this range.  Any military with helicopters/jets/satellite viewing capability will have you dead to rights very quickly though.

[jlwilliams]

If we are talking about having nothing but a single shot rifle, (the ground rule of the OP was nothing but a 30-30 and nothing but a single shot) then a good pair of running shoes is what's going to save your hide.  Shoot and scoot.  Better still would be having the situational awareness to be wherever hostility is not.

[teamnelson]

Now that we've had some time to discuss doing everything with a 30-30 single shot, what if you could change ONLY ONE of the following limitations: Caliber or Capacity.

If you change caliber, it's still only a Singleshot.
If you change capacity, it's still only 30-30.

Which would you pick?

[tacklebury]

Caliber - changed to .45-70...    Using .457 round ball for light plinking/small game, up to 330 gr. molded leads for bigger game and finally some 405's molded for deeper penetration or even bigger ones. 

[jlwilliams]

  I'll go the other way.  I'd change capacity and go for a lever gun.  Still a simple, time tested weapon.  It would still be a good idea to just fire once if that's an option, but if you get cornered the ability to put out a few shots in short order then the repeating action could make the difference.
  History shows up pretty clearly that the repeating rifle is in general superior to the single shot.  Especially if bullets are going more than one way.

[bilmac]

There is a reason the Winchesters and Marlins have been so popular for so long. I think portability is a big part of it. HandY rifles that shoot a cartridge powerful enough to get the job done.

[Couger]

A smart man will avoid what he cannot win against if at all possible and live to fight another day....on HIS terms. 
 
The best gunfight is one where you don't have to use your gun.

A definite A-men to that!
 
But also keep in mind, if trouble comes to one's front door and fighting errupted, would that home or retreat be completely compromised?  NEVER to return to?
 
If trouble and fighting were to come,
also remember the best advantage will be the survivor/home owner/patriot
 
choosing the "where"
and not the THUG or the bad guy!! (just sayin'    )

[keith44]

If you have a firearm that can handle the really extended range sniping, ie. 1200 meters or more, you can often get a few hits in prior to them getting a full lock down on you.  With any military, however, once that happens your life expectancy just took a major dump.  Using a silenced and suppressed rifle gives you a lot of benefits although making them bulkier.  I don't think unless I had a .50 cal or .338 Lapua or maybe a .416 Barrett based rifle I'd even consider sniping.  There's nothing to sneeze about .30-06 or .308 up to 1200, but few can get beyond this range.  Any military with helicopters/jets/satellite viewing capability will have you dead to rights very quickly though.

Check out the 6.5-284 ballistics, 1,800 yard hits,  6 inch groups at 1,000 yards are common in competitions.

[tacklebury]

Thinking that small a bullet will loose too much energy, but I'll check it out.    If memory serves the 416 Barret still has as much energy at 2000 yards as a .50 BMG has at 1000.  Even though it's smaller, it's got a better BC and higher initial velocity. 

[keith44]

don't need much energy, if ya got enough accuracy