Author Topic: Please look at this target and give some advice... (Read 1561 times)

jonr · « **on:** January 23, 2004, 10:45:25 AM »

This target was shot today with my first .338 Win Mag hand loads.
Load data:

Nosler 180 Grain BT
H4350 70 Grains
Winchester new unprimed brass
Winchester Mag Rifle Primers

The overall cartridge length was within .003 of each other. All brass was run through an RCBS full size die before loading. I spent alot of maticulous time measuring case size, powder, etc.
Powder measured on a Lee scale.

Range data:
50 degrees F
Wind light
Good prop with a solid, long shooting bag
All shells were hand loaded and a minimum of 2 to 3 minuites between each shot.

What I don't under stand is why each group is so tight but also so far from the other group. If all 3 had been in a bunch with on flier I would have thought that normal, like I pulled one. OR all spread out like a shot gun, the gun does not like the powder charge and that would be normal.
But these groups look like they were shot with differently charged bullets.
One was 2" high and perfect windage, then high and left, then back with the first, then high and left again. I may have pulled on one or two just a LITTLE but not that much or that consistently.

Here is the link to the image. Let me know if you can not pull it up.
I could not get it to post.

http://68.216.51.99/target/target.JPG

Thanks for the feedback! It is great to have a board to come to with such good suport!

Jack Crevalle · « **Reply #1 on:** January 23, 2004, 11:23:48 AM »

You didn't say how many you shot but it looks like four in the picture. If thats all, then you need to shoot more rounds.

KN · « **Reply #2 on:** January 23, 2004, 12:19:00 PM »

You need to shoot several 5 round groups before you make any rash decisions. If it continues to bounce back and forth, Basically making two groups then I would say your scope is not holding zero. I have had this happen to me. It would bounce back and forth between two points of impact. KN

jgalar · « **Reply #3 on:** January 23, 2004, 12:22:37 PM »

Thats a hard kicking gun, your scope may have slipped or the adjustments changed after your second shot throwing the second group into a different area.

Castaway · « **Reply #4 on:** January 23, 2004, 01:49:56 PM »

How long did you wait between shots? Between groups?

jonr · « **Reply #5 on:** January 23, 2004, 04:47:22 PM »

Thanks for all the help everyone!

I shot a total of 4 shots. I waited a minimum of 2 to 3 minuites between each shot. This was a 100 yard range and I walked down to the target and back between each shot. Each shell was handloaded into the chamber.

I feel that the scope adjustment is not the culprit b/c of what order the shots/grouping happened.

1st shot-The first one of the two that are 2" directly above center
2nd shot-The first one of the two that are high and left
3rd shot-The second one of the two that are 2" directly above center
4th shot-The second one of the two that are high and right

So, after the first shot I went high left, then back, then high left again.

Could two of the shells haveing .25 or .5 more powder have caused this?

My scale was acting a little funny. It is the one that comes with the Lee Aniversary kit and it is brand new. I caught it a couple of times showing a
small difference when I would put the same charge on multiple times. :?

Thanks for the feedback everyone!

Let me know what you think.

Jonr

Geno · « **Reply #6 on:** January 23, 2004, 05:02:44 PM »

I'd do as stated:
1.A few more shots, maybe 5 shot groups, get a better overall picture of whats happening.
2. Before I'd rule out the scope, I'd try a few factory rounds to compare groups against. Not saying they are perfect , but generally very consistent.
3. if factory rounds shoot the same, well, it's not the rounds you're loading.
4. Check sandbag/rest placement is exactly the same each shot.
5. rifle setup, such as forarm screw tightness, tension etc....
In my case, I'd probably just assume it was me, and try again tomorrow, I have those days. good luck.

jgalar · « **Reply #7 on:** January 23, 2004, 05:04:14 PM »

Sorry, misread your post. I thought you had one close group than one high and left.

I agree with the others tho. You should shoot a few more shots. You could have a difference in powder, but just as likely the rifle wasn't resting on the bags exactly from shot to shot. Shoot your 3-5 shots then walk down and check.

The Lee scale sure is slow for measuring each charge. You have more patience than I do :grin:

huntsman · « **Reply #8 on:** January 23, 2004, 06:28:22 PM »

By any chance was there a longer wait time between shots #2 and #3 than between shots #1 and #2 and shots #3 and #4? I know you said a MINIMUM of time, but you didn't say if it was all equal. Just a wild hunch, but tell us if there was a difference.

KN · « **Reply #9 on:** January 23, 2004, 06:47:21 PM »

Absolutely the powder charge variations could account for this! You need to make sure your ammo is consistent before doing any more testing. If not you are wasteing your time. KN

Jack Crevalle · « **Reply #10 on:** January 24, 2004, 03:45:23 AM »

I started out shooting five shot groups when working up a load. Then I read in the Speer manual that you need to five at least 7 shots for a statisitically viable result. I try to shoot at least eight shots per charge but I like to shoot 10 even better.

dakotashooter2 · « **Reply #11 on:** January 24, 2004, 11:17:26 AM »

Four shots doesn't tell much. Human error could easily account for those groupings. Had it happen to me on several occasions. Fouling can also make a difference in some guns with some shooting better and some worse. Try the load again with 10 or maybe even 20 rounds. Since there seems to be some what of a grouping even though in two separate areas there is some promise.

jonr · « **Reply #12 on:** January 25, 2004, 03:25:19 AM »

I reloaded 8 more shells of the same load. I will shoot them Mon or Tues. and let everyone know how it goes. Thanks for all of the help!

Jonr

Larry Gibson · « **Reply #13 on:** January 25, 2004, 07:54:58 AM »

jonr

"and I walked down to the target and back between each shot."

Big mistake! Your odds of getting back into the same position are slim to none with slim being gone. You had no consistancy to your position and the groups (I wouldn't really assess them as groups) tell us nothing. With those 8 rounds you have just loaded put them all in the magazine and shoot all 8 with out getting out of position. Wait about 1 minute between shots and you might lower the butt of the rifle as in slow fire but no more than that. Then post the results of that 8 shot group and we will have something to work with.

Larry Gibson

Tom W. · « **Reply #14 on:** January 25, 2004, 11:31:34 AM »

It could be the Lee scale. I started to get strange variations after a while in both my 30/06 and my .270 after using the Lee scale for a number of years. I bought a PACT BBKII and compared charges, and found out the Lee scale had gone south on me.

josebd · « **Reply #15 on:** January 25, 2004, 02:04:51 PM »

i agree i had the same problem and switched to the rcbs electronic partner pro scale,alot better.

Stan M. · « **Reply #16 on:** January 25, 2004, 04:17:27 PM »

I would have to agree with the others, shoot more rounds.
I have a Rem. 788 in .222 that when the barrel is clean the first four shots go back and forth alternating about 2" apart. Then the 4th 5th and 6th and so on, are less then 1/2'' group. I don't know why, maybe something to do with it being old and worn. I just continue to shoot it during the varmit season and clean the barrel when I'm through for the summer.
As for the powder, I'm real picky when I weigh charges. I have read somewhere in one of my books that large volume rifle cases , it is not as critical being exact as it it is with smaller volume cases. I don't know if a slight variation with that much powder would make a difference or not. But to me consistancy is the name of the game!
Scopes and mounts can be problems also, go shoot some more and learn the rifles characteristics.
Good Luck,
Stan

Jack Crevalle · « **Reply #17 on:** January 26, 2004, 12:22:25 AM »

Quote from: Bama Boy

It could be the Lee scale. I started to get strange variations after a while in both my 30/06 and my .270 after using the Lee scale for a number of years. I bought a PACT BBKII and compared charges, and found out the Lee scale had gone south on me.

Is this a Lee balance or electronic scale? What model? Thanks.

jonr · « **Reply #18 on:** January 26, 2004, 02:06:25 AM »

It is the Lee balance scale that comes with the Aniversary kit.

Jonr

jonr · « **Reply #19 on:** January 26, 2004, 11:56:52 AM »

OK. I shot again today. Six handloads of the same "formula".
They did the same thing but further spread out. One three shot group
higher than another three shot group. I also shot three factory loads at the bottom left corner of the target to rule out the scope. It seemed normal. I have included a link to the new target. Let me know if you have any ideas please. I am probably fixing to load up some with 71 grain instead of 70. Still wondering if the scale is not throwing accurate?

http://68.216.51.99/target/target1.jpg

Thanks!

Jonr

josebd · « **Reply #20 on:** January 26, 2004, 12:06:36 PM »

i kinda had the same problem with my .223 h&r,i use full length resizing and it was not grouping at all. so i just started neck sizing only with the same brass fired in the rifle and now its grouping within an inch and even better.

Jack Crevalle · « **Reply #21 on:** January 26, 2004, 11:04:30 PM »

I'm curious as to whether you shot one "group" and then the other "group". Did you fire them in the same order that you loaded them? It would seem that if it was the scale then that would be the only way to account for two "groups". Did you do as people suggested and not wait between shots? Did you visually inspect the cases with the charges in them without bullets to see if they appeared to be at the same level? Can you load at least 10 shots?

jonr · « **Reply #22 on:** January 27, 2004, 05:06:04 AM »

I CAN load atleast 10 shells, but can I shoot 10 in a row comfortably? :lol:
The 9 yesterday was very close to my comfort limit. I am being careful not to develop a flintch.

I DID NOT shoot one group and then another. One went low then one high, etc. Very similar to last time. I did stay at the bench the whole time.
I waited a few minuites between shots. NO, I did not time the exact waiting time but it was very similar for each shot. The barrel never was shot "hot" just warm.

I did not fire in the same order as I loaded. They were loaded and randomly put in a box and then taken to the range.

Thanks!

Jonr

Jack Crevalle · « **Reply #23 on:** January 27, 2004, 05:53:30 AM »

I sometimes shoot 40 - 80 centerfire shots in one day from a bench. One thing I found helped tremendously is to get a good recoil pad such as a PAST. It is almost like shooting a .22 then. It may not reduce a .338 Mag that much but I think you'll be surprised at the difference.

This, and shooting each shot in closer secession will, I think, give you more of a cohesive group.

jonr · « **Reply #24 on:** January 27, 2004, 06:00:42 AM »

Thanks for the input Jack. I had a Limb Saver installed before I ever even fired the gun the first time. It does help alot!

As far as shooting in secession I would have thought that I needed to prevent the barrel from over heating so that I was not "chasing" a hot barrel. I had this problem on a 7mm Mag Abolt once.
What is the reasoning for shooing in secession?

I appreciate all of the advise everyone!

Jonr

Jack Crevalle · « **Reply #25 on:** January 27, 2004, 08:00:33 AM »

Quote from: jonr

Thanks for the input Jack. I had a Limb Saver installed before I ever even fired the gun the first time. It does help alot!

If this is a recoil pad installed on the butt, you might still consider a shoulder pad. A butt mounted recoil will absorb some recoil but what remains is still concentrated over a narrow area. A recoil pad you wear such as the PAST tends to distribute the recoil over a much wider area. To me there's a big difference.

Quote

What is the reasoning for shooing in secession?

To me, it's just for consistancy as someone suggested. I've shot several shots at a range, had a cease-fire called, started shooting again, and thrown all of the next shots off to the right.

Stan M. · « **Reply #26 on:** January 27, 2004, 04:22:07 PM »

jonr,
I was able to view the target this evening ,would not open for me yesterday. I'm not fimiliar with the .338 Win and all five of my older manuals don't have 180 gr. bullets listed. I take it 70 gr. is a reduced load or at the bottom of the chart. Try 71 gr. and see what happens.
I usually load groups of five bullets in .5 grain increments and work up, looking for excesive pressure signs after each group. I usually clean the rifle after a couple of groups are shot. Then work on toward max in the manual.
I can usually see the targets through the scope so I have an idea of what's going on downrange. Anyway after all are shot I go down and look for the best group. You may find speeding up the load will tighten it.
Once I determine the best group I load some more with that charge and play with the distance the bullet is off the lands and grooves. I usally try to move them .005" deeper each group,looking for that sweet spot.
Do you know how far off the lands and grooves the ogive of the bullet your loading is sitting? Something to consider, you mention OAl being within .003" but where in relation to the lands?
You may want to borrow another scale from a friend and see what happens with the same load first or play with the two scales and see what yours is doing. I'm not familiar with the Lee, but I started with a cheap Lyman Accuscale and a cheap Lee Challenger press and had excellent results. I've since upgraded both but it did'nt shrink my groups. It doesn't really matter if the scale is super accurate, as long as it remains consistant when set. And the setting is close to what is supposed to be.
Jack is right you can't beat a Past strap on shoulder pad! I can shoot slugs or a muzzleloader , turkey loads, you name it, all day with no problem.
Just trying to help,
Stan

jonr · « **Reply #27 on:** January 28, 2004, 03:48:05 AM »

Apperciate the info Jack and Stan. I will deifinately get one of their pads.

I had the gunsmith help me set the bullet seating depth. I don't know how far it is from the lands, but he did comment that the gun had a long throat.
The magazine as usual was the limiting factor. I moved the bullet as far out in the case as I could and still function in the magazine with a little clearance.

I started to work up a 71 grn load last night but the scale was giving me fits. I had 2 or 3 cases filled and decided to pour one back on the scale.
It gave me a different reading. I am seriously considering buying a new digital scale. Any suggestions?

Jonr

Jose Grande · « **Reply #28 on:** January 28, 2004, 09:43:41 AM »

jonr, I'm about to answer your e-mail, but there are some things folks need to know.
Less than 1 gr. powder makes no practical difference on long range shooting ie. NRA Hi-Power. This from cup winners at Camp Perry & members of the Presidents 100.
I don't for a minute think it's the scope jumping around.
The rifle is probably shifting in the stock. Proper bedding will cure this.
I would check the tightness of the action screws first. If that don't do it, then think about a bedding job. IMHO. :grin:

If it were the scope, it would jump randomly, not back & forth between groups. The shots would be all over the paper.

persistentprogrammer · « **Reply #29 on:** January 28, 2004, 10:42:07 AM »

I had a similar problem with a Simmons scope. If the scope does not have an adjustable objective then look through the scope at different angles to see if youre zero changes. Scope parallax = optical illusions! This might explain it, the parallax is the same at the same distance, i.e. 100 yds parallax could be 1-2". Make sure you keep the same body position for each shot.