Author Topic: An Extremely Rare 16th-17th C. Wood-Cased Grape Shot  (Read 2060 times)

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Offline cannonmn

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An Extremely Rare 16th-17th C. Wood-Cased Grape Shot
« on: February 24, 2012, 08:54:43 AM »
In earlier times I would have posted a link to this, but the title should enable anyone interested to find it on the web.  The reason I used to post links is to be able to share things posted in other places which I otherwise wouldn't take the time to copy, figure out how to reformat the photos, worry about whether someone would get upset because the photos might be copyrighted, etc etc.  But now I've learned my lesson, and as Cool Hand Luke often said "Got my mind right, Boss!"

Offline GGaskill

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Re: An Extremely Rare 16th-17th C. Wood-Cased Grape Shot
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2012, 11:05:08 AM »
Links are OK; they are fundamental parts of the Internet.  :D
GG
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Offline Double D

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Re: An Extremely Rare 16th-17th C. Wood-Cased Grape Shot
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2012, 12:32:37 PM »
Nothing wrong with posting links.  Posting a link is no different than citing a book title and author.

There is noting wrong with copy and pasting your own work, it yours you control it.

Copy and pasting someones else work; their writing and photos from elsewhere without  their permission is theft.

Offline Double D

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Re: An Extremely Rare 16th-17th C. Wood-Cased Grape Shot
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2012, 12:43:14 PM »
Here is the link John is trying to point to.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=134510#post134510

Appears to be a copy of an auction catalog listing  http://www.hermann-historica.de/db2_en/ for a wooden cannister round.

Offline Zulu

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Re: An Extremely Rare 16th-17th C. Wood-Cased Grape Shot
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2012, 01:15:05 PM »
Here is the link John is trying to point to.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=134510#post134510

Appears to be a copy of an auction catalog listing  http://www.hermann-historica.de/db2_en/ for a wooden cannister round.

George already posted this link.
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Offline Double D

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Re: An Extremely Rare 16th-17th C. Wood-Cased Grape Shot
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2012, 06:21:12 PM »
Yes George sure did use one of the several recognized linking conventions, but not every  one recognizes that convention...it depends on your internet usage skill level.  An advance user would recognize it..  Some one less  internet savvy might not. 

Offline GGaskill

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Re: An Extremely Rare 16th-17th C. Wood-Cased Grape Shot
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2012, 07:08:48 PM »
My link in Reply #1 above was appropriate for the subject Links, but was not very good for the subject Wood Cased Grape Shot containers.  If the post had been more about the latter, it should have been:

Here is a link to a post about Wood Cased Grape Shot.

That way the reader has some idea of what the link will give him.
GG
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Offline Double D

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Re: An Extremely Rare 16th-17th C. Wood-Cased Grape Shot
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2012, 02:44:49 AM »
My link in Reply #1 above was appropriate for the subject Links, but was not very good for the subject Wood Cased Grape Shot containers.  If the post had been more about the latter, it should have been:

Here is a link to a post about Wood Cased Grape Shot.

That way the reader has some idea of what the link will give him.

We had a whole class just on linking styles and their use....speaking of which I still need to go in an fix that one suggested in my website George.

Offline cannonmn

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Re: An Extremely Rare 16th-17th C. Wood-Cased Grape Shot
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2012, 04:30:58 AM »
I don't think that projectile is "right."  Yesterday I did a posting there on the material which looks to me like burlap, not used nearly as early as the catalog indicates.  Today I posted this there with many other reservations:

"...I have had some other thoughts about this object, along the lines that it may not  have anything to do with ordnance.  My thinking began when I considered the modern plastic ones used in test laboratories.  The locking tabs on both ends of each segment are more of a convenience to maintain integrity of the assembled projectile during manual loading, however the 1/8-inch-thick stainless steel disc placed on the rear of the projectile is definitely necessary, or else the segments would almost certainly separate in the bore with one pushing ahead of others.  That situation would be very inefficient and might also damage the expensive gun barrel. 

My point is that the oak projectile shown here simply will not function as appearance might indicate.  The segments contacting the bottom of the chamber will be held in place by immense forces caused by gases flowing over the top side of the projectile (remember the considerable windage allowance in older cannons,) and I'm sure the top segments would almost immediately be torn from the bottom ones, before the latter had moved at all.  This projectile would never remain intact to the muzzle.  There would also be no reason to use an internal bag of "linen."  In most  real, antique canister rounds I've seen, when lead balls are used, they are packed in something like sawdust to help keep them from defoming due to the high G-forces upon firing.  The wooden "round" shown seems to have no padding between balls.

In addition, both ends are the same, and both ends have a sharp 90-degree angle at the end, which would lend itself to the lower segments being stopped and fragmented by contact with the bore surface.  As a minumum, since this had to have been made on a lathe, the turner would fashion the front end with some radius of curvature to ease the travel down the bore.  Likewise, the rear end of most canister muzzle-loading rounds I've seen is rebated or has some special provision for the attachment of the cloth cartridge bag.  This one is symmetrical end-for-end along with the other suspect areas, makes it an unlikely candidate for an authentic canister round in my opinion.

The leather shown bent over when the one segment is moved, seems as supple as when it was on the animal it came from, bending 180 degrees with perfect flexibility.  I don't think this leather has much age.

I have to voice my humble and amateur opinion that the wooden segmented object originally had some non-ordnance purpose , and the sack of balls may have been added recently to give the object a new identity."

Offline shred

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Re: An Extremely Rare 16th-17th C. Wood-Cased Grape Shot
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2012, 07:12:45 AM »
Pneumatic transport tubes like those at the bank drive-thru were widely used for message and small package delivery back in the day.


Offline steelcharge

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Re: An Extremely Rare 16th-17th C. Wood-Cased Grape Shot
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2012, 07:14:48 AM »
There would also be no reason to use an internal bag of "linen."  In most  real, antique canister rounds I've seen, when lead balls are used, they are packed in something like sawdust to help keep them from defoming due to the high G-forces upon firing.  The wooden "round" shown seems to have no padding between balls.

In addition, both ends are the same, and both ends have a sharp 90-degree angle at the end, which would lend itself to the lower segments being stopped and fragmented by contact with the bore surface.  As a minumum, since this had to have been made on a lathe, the turner would fashion the front end with some radius of curvature to ease the travel down the bore.  Likewise, the rear end of most canister muzzle-loading rounds I've seen is rebated or has some special provision for the attachment of the cloth cartridge bag.  This one is symmetrical end-for-end along with the other suspect areas, makes it an unlikely candidate for an authentic canister round in my opinion.

I won't say this is authentic or not since I'm not an expert and simply don't have enough knowledge.

But below are linked a few wooden canisters from the swedish army-museums collection. They are both very similar shaped wooden cylinders. The 12pdr version which is open shows remnants of some kind of "bag" inside it. And both have the sharp 90-degree corners on each end, being simply cylindrical. There are also many other examples of very similar construction in the collection. The site lists this canisters as being for navy-use and seem to contain iron balls instead of lead. 


http://www.digitaltmuseum.se/things/12-p-skr/S-AM/AM.062616

http://www.digitaltmuseum.se/things/kartesch/S-AM/AM.062623?count=16&pos=9



Offline cannonmn

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Re: An Extremely Rare 16th-17th C. Wood-Cased Grape Shot
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2012, 01:55:07 PM »
Thanks for posting those.  Two days ago I'd never seen a wooden canister round of that type and now I've seen two or three.  The second one linked in your post does resemble the piece pictured on Vikingsword from the side view.  I can't tell from that one view if it was divided into quarters like the VS one or not.  Both of those you linked definitely show age, unlike the other on the Hermann H. auction page.

Offline steelcharge

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Re: An Extremely Rare 16th-17th C. Wood-Cased Grape Shot
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2012, 11:22:00 PM »
I can't tell from that one view if it was divided into quarters like the VS one or not.

I'm not sure either but the swedish ones look more like two halves instead of four pieces.

Heres two more examples, the first one, a 12pdr, having a rounded bottom like more modern canisters.
The other one seems to have also somekind of "bag" inside it, not sure.
I must agree that I don't see any use for the bag inside the canister either..

http://www.digitaltmuseum.se/things/12-p-skr/S-AM/AM.062619?count=16&pos=5

http://www.digitaltmuseum.se/things/kartesch/S-AM/AM.062622?count=16&pos=8

Offline cannonmn

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Re: An Extremely Rare 16th-17th C. Wood-Cased Grape Shot
« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2012, 10:59:55 AM »
Thanks again, I transferred your latest links to the VS forum for their enjoyment and edification.

Offline KABAR2

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Re: An Extremely Rare 16th-17th C. Wood-Cased Grape Shot
« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2012, 02:56:42 PM »
 At least two of the post links appear to use some cloth with the case shot......
As to the material in the 16th/17th C. case shot..... while burlap came about in the 18th C.  sack cloth a course woven fabric is mentioned as far back as to be included in the Bible..... the cloth in the photo appears to be burlap but how much of the color is from iron/rust imparted to the fabric over time? And now in modern times if you do a search on burlap and a search on sack cloth they become one in the same.
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Offline cannonmn

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Re: An Extremely Rare 16th-17th C. Wood-Cased Grape Shot
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2012, 05:55:59 AM »
More grape and canister:  A member of the VS forum has pulled up many additional photos and descriptions (in Swedish I think) of wooden-cased rounds, and some others that are more familiar.  They went ahead and posted the actual photos there, not just links, since that material will certainly fall under the "fair use for educational purposes" clause 107 (?) of the copyright act of 1976.
Please, I am not here to make an argument for or against posting photos on websites, I just wanted to direct your attention to the interesting photos, which must have come from the same site SteelCharge has been linking to lately.   The "new" photos begin with post no. 14 here:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=134510#post134510

Offline steelcharge

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Re: An Extremely Rare 16th-17th C. Wood-Cased Grape Shot
« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2012, 06:26:08 AM »
  The "new" photos begin with post no. 14 here:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=134510#post134510

I'm not registered on the VS forum, so could you ask if the poster of those pictures could post the link to the lower "quilted grapeshot" in the reply number 16?
 The info on that same post was for a 12pdr canister and the grapeshot is clearly smaller, probably for 1pdr. The grapeshot above it is also a really small one, for about 1.2" (quarter pounder?) gun, museum info says it's for "muskedunder" which would be a musket-type swivel gun.

Edit: If you are interested in saving some of those pictures on the museum site, you can download quite high resolution pictures by clicking "Ladda ner bild" under the image.

Offline steelcharge

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Re: An Extremely Rare 16th-17th C. Wood-Cased Grape Shot
« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2012, 05:18:38 AM »
I'm not registered on the VS forum, so could you ask if the poster of those pictures could post the link to the lower "quilted grapeshot" in the reply number 16?

Well I should've clearly paid more attention to that picture as it was the same tiny "muskedunder" grapeshot in both pictures..
For some reason I paid no attention to the museum ID which is same in both pictures. So I found what I was looking for already myself, but thanks anyway for posting my question on the VS forum.

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: An Extremely Rare 16th-17th C. Wood-Cased Grape Shot
« Reply #18 on: February 29, 2012, 05:12:13 AM »
Thanks for the post and links, I've saved many pics.
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Offline cannonmn

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Re: An Extremely Rare 16th-17th C. Wood-Cased Grape Shot
« Reply #19 on: February 29, 2012, 06:51:55 AM »
The foregoing is a good example of the recent tendency of museums, particularly European ones, to put their stuff online with photos and data sheets.  I haven't seen it going on that much in the US unfortunately, but the NY's MOMA is a good example of a US museum which is doing it.
 
The Spanish State Archives have a good start in putting all kinds of drawings and documents online, including some fantastic original cannon drawings, where some of the drawings were used for production, and some apparently just "unfunded proposals."  I've posted some of those on our SARA (Spanish Artillery Research Associates) Yahoo group.
 
When one of us finds a museum with artillery pieces, accouterments, or ammo online, please share the links, there's a wealth of untapped, unappreciated info of that kind sitting out there on the web.
 
Here's just one of probably hundreds of cannon drawings from the Spanish State Archives-isn't my property so on this particular forum I'm just giving the link, which may better because when it opens up it is like two screens wide if you are set at 100% zoom.  Curiously it is a Spanish cannon but the drawing is obviously French, so perhaps the drawing was executed while the French were in control in Spain under Napoleon.  If you like stuff like this, you can just change the last digit in the url up or down and get something else interesting, which could be a drawing of a cannon, an arsenal, a powder mill, or whatever.  I haven't figured out how to use the index or search features on this site yet, if someone cracks the code on that, share!
http://www.mcu.es/ccbae/es/catalogo_imagenes/imagen_id.cmd?idImagen=1883

Offline steelcharge

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Re: An Extremely Rare 16th-17th C. Wood-Cased Grape Shot
« Reply #20 on: February 29, 2012, 08:42:09 AM »
When one of us finds a museum with artillery pieces, accouterments, or ammo online, please share the links, there's a wealth of untapped, unappreciated info of that kind sitting out there on the web.

Here is lots of stuff from some french museum(s).

56 pages of pictures for keyword "canon", drawings, photos, paintings, models etc:
http://www.photo.rmn.fr/cf/htm/CSearchT.aspx?V=CSearchT&SID=2K1KTSGQZ8DYC&E=S_2K1KTSGQZ8DYC&NoR=500&New=T

7 pages of stuff for "obusier":
http://www.photo.rmn.fr/cf/htm/CSearchT.aspx?V=CSearchT&SID=2K1KTSGQZ8ND3&E=S_2K1KTSGQZ8ND3&NoR=500&New=T

56 pages for "artillerie":
http://www.photo.rmn.fr/cf/htm/CSearchT.aspx?V=CSearchT&SID=2K1KTSGQZ8800&E=S_2K1KTSGQZ8800&NoR=500&New=T

33 pages of cannon models & related:
http://www.photo.rmn.fr/cf/htm/CSearchT.aspx?Round=2&Total=292&FP=8440520&E=2K1KTSGQZ8J46&SID=2K1KTSGQZ8J46&New=T&Page=1


Some highlight pictures:
1.http://www.photo.rmn.fr/cf/htm/CSearchZ.aspx?o=&Total=292&FP=8440520&E=2K1KTSGQZ8J46&SID=2K1KTSGQZ8J46&New=T&Pic=48&SubE=2C6NU0KR3XVW

2.http://www.photo.rmn.fr/cf/htm/CSearchZ.aspx?o=&Total=500&FP=8446256&E=2K1KTSGQZ76WN&SID=2K1KTSGQZ76WN&New=T&Pic=215&SubE=2C6NU07FWQMZ

3.http://www.photo.rmn.fr/cf/htm/CSearchZ.aspx?o=&Total=500&FP=8446256&E=2K1KTSGQZ76WN&SID=2K1KTSGQZ76WN&New=T&Pic=242&SubE=2C6NU0BP10M4

4.http://www.photo.rmn.fr/cf/htm/CSearchZ.aspx?o=&Total=292&FP=8440520&E=2K1KTSGQZ8J46&SID=2K1KTSGQZ8J46&New=T&Pic=113&SubE=2C6NU0Y6SGA3
What is that thing? A cannon and mortar cast together as a one weapon??


Offline GGaskill

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Re: An Extremely Rare 16th-17th C. Wood-Cased Grape Shot
« Reply #22 on: February 29, 2012, 11:34:39 AM »
That second one looks like a Midas Grade King Howitzer.
GG
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Offline cannonmn

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Offline GGaskill

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Re: An Extremely Rare 16th-17th C. Wood-Cased Grape Shot
« Reply #24 on: February 29, 2012, 12:28:01 PM »
Takedown model

I wonder why so many sections.  There were no metal detectors in those days.
GG
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Offline Zulu

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Re: An Extremely Rare 16th-17th C. Wood-Cased Grape Shot
« Reply #25 on: February 29, 2012, 12:35:14 PM »
I agree with steelcharge.  What the heck is this thing?
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Offline cannonmn

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Re: An Extremely Rare 16th-17th C. Wood-Cased Grape Shot
« Reply #26 on: February 29, 2012, 12:56:37 PM »
Quote
What the heck is this thing?
I've never seen one either but it must certainly be either a cantar or a mornnon.
It'll take me a while to digest those pix.  I've always been very interested in "arsenal" cannon models like those and have collected a few, but had no idea there were still so many in any one place.

Offline Double D

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Re: An Extremely Rare 16th-17th C. Wood-Cased Grape Shot
« Reply #27 on: February 29, 2012, 01:49:48 PM »
When I saw , I said to myself, "what is Rocklock up to now?"

Offline Artilleryman

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Re: An Extremely Rare 16th-17th C. Wood-Cased Grape Shot
« Reply #28 on: February 29, 2012, 04:13:04 PM »
Takedown model

I wonder why so many sections.  There were no metal detectors in those days.

The idea may have been to be able to disassemble a very large barrel so that it could be more easily transported.
Norm Gibson, 1st SC Vol., ACWSA

Offline Artilleryman

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Re: An Extremely Rare 16th-17th C. Wood-Cased Grape Shot
« Reply #29 on: February 29, 2012, 04:14:14 PM »
I agree with steelcharge.  What the heck is this thing?
Zulu
 


It appears to be an attempt to combine a mortar with a cannon barrel.
Norm Gibson, 1st SC Vol., ACWSA