Author Topic: Socialism- Having some is a good thing.............  (Read 496 times)

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Offline crustylicious

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Socialism- Having some is a good thing.............
« on: February 24, 2012, 12:03:27 PM »
The United States is a capitalist nation that has eschewed Scandinavian-style socialist policies in favor of capitalism and economic growth, right? Wrong.
 
The U.S. is not only one of the largest welfare states in the world, but it is strong economically precisely becauseof its adoption of some socialist policies—with public education as the primary driver.
 
Below is a list of myths that we debunk in our book Wealth and Welfare States: Is America a Laggard or Leader, which is about our country’s commitment to social welfare and the effect these policies have on our economy.
 
Myth: The welfare state undermines productivity, efficiency, and economic growth.
 
Fact:Welfare state programs complement capitalism and increase productivity, efficiency, and economic growth. Investment in public education is the main driver of this; education is so demonstrably productive that including education in any analysis of social welfare shows that, in general, welfare state programs enhance rather than retard productivity, efficiency, and growth in economic well-being.

Myth: The welfare state is the antithesis of a capitalist nation—and thus wealthy nations are, by definition, not welfare states.
 
Fact: All wealthy nations, including the United States, are welfare states—that is, they are primarily capitalist states with large, selective doses of socialism. Capitalist governments socialize select institutions to reduce the economic insecurity produced by a market economy. The most common areas of targeting include education, public health, and some forms of insurance. While such policies require resources, rich nations have figured that the benefits exceed costs.

Myth: The United States has an unusually small welfare state.
 
Fact: Welfare state programs are quite large in the United States—transferring close to one third of the country’s income from one to another part of the population. When measuring the size and impact of a welfare state, it is critical to not limit the analysis to traditional notions of welfare like cash assistance but to include a broader set of social welfare transfers such as education, employer-provided benefits, and all in-kind benefits.
 
Myth:The size and priorities of welfare states in rich nations are very different.
 
Fact:The 14 wealthy welfare states that are examined in the book are strikingly similar in size and structure. In all countries, including the United States, welfare state transfers are large—around 30 to 40 percent of each country’s total production of goods and services. The domains socialized are also similar: old age pensions, health, education, and cash public assistance for the poor are common to all countries.  In most, pensions are the most costly, with health insurance second, education third, and public assistance the least expensive.
 
There are two exceptions to this that set the U.S. apart: the U.S. has much higher spending on health care and much lower spending on cash benefits and early childhood education.

Myth: The United States is and always has been a welfare state laggard.
 
Fact:Although the United States has always spent comparatively little on social insurance and assistance for the poor, it was a world leader in providing mass public education during the 19th and 20th centuries. Other rich welfare states have imitated the American model of investing in education for the masses.
 
Myth: The United States is still dominant in its educational advantage over other countries.
 
Fact: The United States has been losing ground and needs to provide additional investments in education if it is to remain a leader. The U.S. is at the high end of educational achievement if attainment is measured by high school and college degrees, but near or at the bottom when measured by enrollments in early education or achievement test scores.

Myth:The United States pays far less than other rich countries for health insurance.
 
Fact:Including the costs of employer-provided health insurance, the United States pays far more than any other rich country for less universal health insurance.

Myth: The U.S. investment in healthcare means we provide the best health care in the world.
 
Fact:The quality of care for the top fifth of the population is as good as or better than health care in the rest of the rich world. But the quality of care for the rest of the population is notably poorer. While the U.S. does expend a lot of money on health care benefits, other rich nations achieve the same or greater benefits at lower cost. Moreover, in terms of both infant mortality and life expectancy for the elderly, the U.S. ranks last or near last.

Myth: In the U.S., most welfare state benefits go to the poor and near-poor.
 
Fact:The way that benefits for families with children are distributed in the United States is U-shaped, wherein the poorest and richest get the largest benefits, and the working poor, lower middle class, and even the middle class fall between the cracks.
 
Health care and housing are the most perversely distributed because the U.S has separate programs for aiding different income groups—with the poor receiving means-tested benefits from safety net programs and the middle and upper classes receiving employer provided and/or tax related benefits.
 
The richest fifth of the population gets health benefits that are almost twice that of the poorest fifth. The richest fifth receives housing subsidies – through the mortgage interest tax deduction – that are nearly four times the housing assistance provided to the poorest fifth and about eight times the assistance provided to the lower middle and the middle class.
http://www.spotlightonpoverty.org/ExclusiveCommentary.aspx?id=40e5ffdc-0c3a-4498-bc0b-ae0b106725db
 
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Offline magooch

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Re: Socialism- Having some is a good thing.............
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2012, 05:26:29 AM »
So what's your point?  We should penalize the successful and reward the moochers even more than we do?  Obviously no complex society can be strictly capitalistic and free of socialistic facets, but it should be kept at a minimum and never be more rewarding than personal responsibility.
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Offline jimster

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Re: Socialism- Having some is a good thing.............
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2012, 06:30:48 AM »
We've always had "some" socialism.  It kinda grew out of control and wound up making a whole slew of people lazy and whiny. 
Quote
Obviously no complex society can be strictly capitalistic and free of socialistic facets, but it should be kept at a minimum and never be more rewarding than personal responsibility.
Yep....that's what we should have done and need to start doing, I expect if we do it will cause some riots but I think it's worth going through any hard times to get the some of the American people's heads on straight and force some to try harder. 

Offline RHarper

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Re: Socialism- Having some is a good thing.............
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2012, 06:33:47 AM »
I agree with magooch.  Perhaps the following quote would be appropriate.....
"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from waisting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."
Thomas Jefferson

Offline yellowtail3

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Re: Socialism- Having some is a good thing.............
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2012, 07:04:11 AM »
So what's your point?  We should penalize the successful and reward the moochers even more than we do? 
I'll speculate that wasn't his point, but that it was your inference.
Jesus said we should treat other as we'd want to be treated... and he didn't qualify that by their party affiliation, race, or even if they're of diff religion.

Offline DDZ

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Re: Socialism- Having some is a good thing.............
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2012, 07:13:11 AM »
Socialism has proven to be a formula for tyranny and misery.  Programs like socialized medicine, welfare, social security, and minimum wage laws, appear to be beneficial on the surface. These socialist programs like all socialist programs will fail in the long run, because they all ignore the important role of incentives. The economic downfall we are seeing is the direct result of socialism and its neglect of economic incentives. The idea of making everyone equal, just doesn't work. 

Those people who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants.    Wm. Penn

Offline twoshooter

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Re: Socialism- Having some is a good thing.............
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2012, 07:38:19 AM »
I think I will paraphrase Lincoln here, " I believe that most people are as pessimistic and pi$$ed off as they have made up their minds to be". No amount of rational argument ( a misnomer actually) will convince anyone of anything, because each side has decided everything before they arrived, it is the same as if you each get to choose you own dictionary and then argue about the meaning of a story . This is a pointless exercise in futility, except to further exacerbate hard feelings, and that it does well.
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Offline nw_hunter

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Re: Socialism- Having some is a good thing.............
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2012, 07:46:26 AM »
I agree with twoshooter! By the way Two! You have proven to the world just how much you love your Grandchildren.Anyone that could sit and watch S. Bob, truly enjoys time spent with their children....lol!
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Offline jimster

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Re: Socialism- Having some is a good thing.............
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2012, 08:03:59 AM »
Quote
The idea of making everyone equal, just doesn't work.
Right on DDZ.  That's because we are not all equal.  Some are smarter than others at some things, some are good with their hands and some are not,  some have more drive than others,  some work harder than others....nobody is the same.   Also, the outcome of whatever you might be doing may not be the same outcome as someone else,  that's life. 
I see the socialists as trying to make everyones outcome and income the same no matter who they are,  this destroys the will and infringes rights of some people and also destroys the natural drive of other people,  it makes for a weak people, and weak people make for a weak country.  A weak people also make for a weak government. 

Offline blind ear

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Re: Socialism- Having some is a good thing.............
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2012, 04:10:39 PM »
Who counts the vote and who controls the money is all that matters. US citizens do neither. ear
Oath Keepers: start local
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“It is no coincidence that the century of total war coincided with the century of central banking.” – Ron Paul, End the Fed
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An economic crash like the one of the 1920s is the only thing that will get the US off of the road to Socialism that we are on and give our children a chance at a future with freedom and possibility of economic success.
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everyone hears but very few see. (I can't see either, I'm not on the corporate board making rules that sound exactly the opposite of what they mean, plus loopholes) ear
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Offline magooch

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Re: Socialism- Having some is a good thing.............
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2012, 04:35:55 AM »
Okay, who are these non-citizens who are controlling the money and the votes? 
Swingem

Offline spacer

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Re: Socialism- Having some is a good thing.............
« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2012, 04:55:21 AM »
Oh, man. I hope that OP was tongue in cheek.

So, slaves were probably better off being taken care of in exchange for their "services"... and so on. I mean, you can put a seemingly positive spin on nearly everything, including a political philosophy rooted in violence and control.
What we have today, and the problems we have with it, is socialism. There has never been a true free market economy in the U.S., as even Washington put down a tax rebellion with force, and immediately nationalized the mail after Lysander Spooner proved it could be done better and cheaper privately.

Also, socialism *requires* great levels of political power, which assumes that individuals are unable to control their own lives. So... we place an insane amount of power in the hands of people who are, generally, more power hungry and less capable of self-control. Bravo.

The only business a government has, on this side of the pond anyway, is to ensure that folks' natural rights are protected (not rights granted which force others to pay). That can't be done by throwing the Constitution and Bill of Rights on the bonfire... "for our own good".