hardcast ?'s

[Gallahad]

I know hardcast will punch on through deer even at low velocity, and despite some unschooled opinions about them just making a pencil sized hole through a critter, I know that a flat metplate will cause quite a tissue disturbance depending on speed.  I would like advice by someone with with experience to answer this:  how well will a 200 gr. 40 cal bullet, with a .320 metplate going 1000 fps fair against large deer?  would I be better off with a 200 gr. jhp at the same speed?

[tacklebury]

Your cast will likely work better for deer.  If the HP hits a bone, it will likely fragment quickly and may not penetrate through.  With the cast FP you will get turbulence damage and plenty of it at 1000 fps.  .45 Colts have been doing it even with round nose at 900ish fps for 100+ years. 

[Mikey]

Gallahad:  Tacklebury is correct - the cast slug will work better on whitetail, as well as other critters. 

[Redhawk1]

I have to agree with the others here, stick with the hardcast bullets.. I have been handgun hunting for over 35 years, and hardcast is all I use in my handguns for hunting.

[Larry Gibson]

I'm going to disagree.  While hardcast work ok a softer cast HP of malleable alloy will kill deer quicker, even from the 40 cal, and give all the penetration needed unless you are partial to Texas heart shots.  Most deer do not require more than 14" of penetration in the front half to do the job.  Also most deer front shoulder bones in the heart lung area are relative soft while the deer is still on the hoof.  Assuming you aren't hunting one of those super sized bucks where a more suitable cartridge would be a wise choice, then the 40 cal at 1000+ fps will kill deer very well with 200 gr hardcast, soft cast and JHPs if it is in a legal cartridge to use.  I have killed several deer with soft cast 200 gr and 210 JHPs with .41 mags out of 4" barrels at 1050 - 1200 fps.  Expansion and penetration (through and through) were all that could be desired and every bit as well if not better than with hard cast 210-220 gr bullets in the same velocity range.
 
Larry Gibson

[Redhawk1]

Larry Dead is Dead.. This kill them quicker stuff is just not true. 

[Larry Gibson]

Larry Dead is Dead.. This kill them quicker stuff is just not true. 

Not quite correct; the longer it takes for the game to die the farther they can travel.  In many instances where tracking is easy and follow up assured you are probably correct.  However, in many, many places, tracking can be very difficult if not impossible.  Game that travels a long distance after being "fatally" shot can be easily lost.....I know, I have lost a deer to that reason exactly and I don't want to do it again. 
 
I've had deer travel well over 100 yards with a heart/lung shot with hard cast with several different handgun cartridges.  With soft cast that expand or JSP/JHPs that expand I've not had one go over 40 yards with a similar hit from the same cartridges.  Additionally, from a personal standpoint, I prefer to kill the animal as quickly as possible to lesson the suffering.  Softer expanding cast bullets and expanding JSP/JHPs do, in fact, kill quicker, because they cause more internal damage.  If I'm going to kill an animal I like it to die as quickly as possible, just my preference and I'm not pushing any "moral" or "ethical" position as I'll use hard cast if I've not a soft cast or JSP/JHP to use in handguns.  I'm just proffering an alternate viewpoint to the usual "hard cast is bestest" viewpoint becasue hard cast isn't always "bestest".
 
Larry Gibson

[Redhawk1]

Once again Larry, no facts back what you claim! I have been handgun hunting for over 35 years. Never have I lost an animal after shooting it with a hard cast bullet. I have killed a large number of deer with my handguns, never had to track further than 40 to 50 yards. As a matter of fact, most died within 20 yards. Also, I have taken 5 black bear with hard cast bullets, and everyone was recovered within 20 to 25 yards, and one was recovered 4 yards from where it was shot. . That is a fact, I was there, not something someone told me. I have also killed quit a number of hogs with my hardcast bullets, and have had many bang flops, and no tracking at all.
 
The advantage for hardcast is, I can not only take out the hear lungs, I also take out a front leg any change I get. I take quartering to or away shots to accomplish this. I did not being morals or ethics into this conversation, you did!  But every animal I have shot with my handguns using hard cast bullets died very quickly.  I just don't buy that JHP or soft lead bullets kill quicker. When you can show me proof of that I will listen, but as for now, I will go with my 35 years of experience over a hunch or opinion! Hundreds of dead animals don't lie.

[Larry Gibson]

Not only have I been hunting and killing deer since '70 with handguns but as a LEO in NE Oregon I had the "opportunity" to dispatch a lot of would/injured deer, elk and livestock.  I was able to shoot them with what I wanted, where I wanted and then watch them die.  Of those I've shot while hunting I've shot a lot with cast bullets of various nose shape and alloys/hardness.  I've also shot as many with JSP/JHPs.  There is a reason FMJs, even the older blunt nosed ones, were out lawed for hunting big game in every state in this country....simply because they do not kill as efficiently (read that "as quickly") as expanding bullets.  That is a fact.  Given the same design and velocity a softer cast bullet that expands will also kill quicker, that is a fact also.  Hardly any, if any, police departments use a hard cast bullet for duty.  Some use soft lead SWCHPs that expand but most use JHP/JSPs because they do more damage and stop the miscreants quicker (read that "kills them quicker" but that's not pokitically correct to say), that is a fact. 
 
I can go on and on with "facts" but it isn't necessary.  I'm not saying hard cast bullets are not efficient for hunting, to the contrary they are and I use them myself as stated.  The fact that you've not lost a deer and they all died quickly are a testemnet to your hunting skills, your shooting skills and probably where you hunt.  However, it is not necessary denegrate soft expanding cast bullet, JSPs or JHPs simply to justify your own choice.  It's also rather bad form to get on my case because I proffer a different view, rather biased of you in that regard also.  Again, I don't disagree that hardcast bullets are good bullets to hunt with, that they don't work or even that they don't kill well because the answer is "yes" to all the above.  I just state that softer exanding bullets will and do kill quicker, that is a fact.


BTW; as you allude to the superior "penetration" (The advantage for hardcast is, I can not only take out the hear lungs, I also take out a front leg any change I get. I take quartering to or away shots to accomplish this.) of hard cast bullets is that a proper soft cast bullet that expands, a JSP that expands or a JHP that expands gives all the penetration required for the same shots.  I've yet to recover any of my soft cast HP'd handgun or rifle bullets from any game animal.  I've yet to recover a proper JSP/JHP from a game animal from a .357, .41 or .44 magnum....all gave through and through on broadside and quartering shots.   One exception being with Texas heart shots, there the hard cast generally does give superior penetration, but then I don't take Texas heart shots so if you do then you've definately the advantage.
 
Larry Gibson     

[Mikey]

Gallahad:  Well, I guess this pretty well settles it.  Hard or soft, a well positioned bullet within reasonable distances will penetrate sufficiently to take the deer you are after.  I prefer cast, and hard enough not to deform or lead my barrels.  I prefer the bullets hard, to penetrate, hold their shape, stay on course and break bone in the process.
I do not advocate the use of personal defense loads for hunting.  What works on people does not always work on animals;  what works well for animals may not be the best for people, yet there are always exceptions.  When hunting, if a bullet nose is going to deform you do not want it to deform, and often change course as a result if you are counting on it to penetrate straight on through; hence, harder than soft.  If you are involved in a defensive shooting you do not want your bullets to employ such overpenetration that you jeopardize the innocent; you would want it to expand quickly and incapacitate the target as immediately as possible, hence softer than hard.
Have I missed anyting here?  Everybody still happy? 
Gallahad:  here's a suggestion - buy yourself some of those 200gn 40 caliber .320" wide metplat slugs you were thinking about, load'm up to about 1,000'/sec like you were talking about and see how they shoot.  I'll bet that with all the practice you put in seeing how well they shoot and whether you are comfortable with using them that you shouldn't have any problem taking a whitetail with one.  jmtcw.

[jhalcott]

 What are you calling HARDCAST?? Some casters of handgun bullets think straight air cooled wheel weights are hard. Some people cast an alloy of pure lead and wheel weight to get a BHN of 10 or less. As far as tracking deer, I have had them drop within 100 yards of where they were shot, BUT some other "HUNTER" got to it first. NOW I want them dead and down where I shoot them. I've used both cast and jacketed from all manner of guns,short and long. In MY experience ACCURACY is what counts. No matter what you use. So I guess it doesn't matter what bullet you use, just put it in the correct spot and the deer won't know or care what hit it.

[Graybeard]

I've taken deer with both and hogs as well. I prefer JHPs on deer hands down to cast but have no big problems with cast I just don't feel like based on my personal experience they put the deer down as quickly.

I came really close to losing a hog once to cast but I did make a poor hit while hunting on a moonless night and the best I can figure is I thought it's butt was it's head and vice versa. A Leupold 2X scope on a revolver with the hog about 60 yards away and all the light I had was a Maglight flashlight I was holding in one hand while shooting with the other. I'll always wonder if I had used a JHP if that hog would have died that night and been found rather than us having to hunt it down the next day. We trailed it at least a quarter mile that night before Kevin called off the search until morning.

I've recovered a grand total of one JHP from a deer and that was an old Hornady pre-XTP 180 JHP. I don't recall the velocity but it was not a max load at 12.5 grains of Unique but rather what I had been using to shoot silhouette competition. It was accurate. I put the bullet into the lungs on a close in broad side shot and the bullet was under the hide on the far side with almost no expansion but still the buck died in sight of me.

I do not take shoulder shots on game as a rule and try my best to wait for a broad side shot into the lungs tho that doesn't always happen. Both work but for deer size game I prefer JHPs. Now on larger heavier game I actually do prefer cast. I'm kinda in between the extremes here overall as I like JHPs some times (always on deer) and sometimes I prefer cast.

Thinking back I don't recall ever losing an animal I shot with handguns which is more than I can say for those shot with rifle, muzzle loader and bow/arrow.

[Lloyd Smale]

heres my take on it and for once ill agree with all sides. A hardcast bullet with a decent metplat will kill deer and kill them well. A soft nose or hp cast bullet will kill any deer out there too and probably do it with a bit less tracking on average. So will a jacketed hp if its choosen well and the velocity matches the bullet well. thats where cast have the adavantage. I can change alloys, hp size, bullet weight ect to match the game and velocity im shooting. With a jacketed bullet you dont have those options. Ive seen jhps knock the cork out of animals and ive seen the fail miserably. Ive seen cast hps fail on animals that the alloy and hp size and velocity werent matched to the animal. Ive never seen a hard cast swc or lfn or wfn that was placed well fail to kill an animal. I may have had to walk a 100 yards farther to gut it but they were dead. I also know with a cast bullet if i have to take a shot at an amimal ive allready hit thats going away from me a cast bullet will usually drive the distance into the vitals at any angle and that cant be said for soft nosed or hp bullets. Bottom line is though that any of those designs will kill deer. Deer are a realitively easy animal to kill and it sure doesnt take much to do it.

[Lloyd Smale]

I have to add this to my answer. I think the 357 with hardcast is marginal at putting down deer, It will do it but ive just chased the ones ive shot to far for my liking and if you hunt in an area that has private land you cant tresspass on or has tough tracking conditions its not a good choise and if i was going to hunt deer again with a 357 (and i wont) id load some 158 jhps at the highest velocity i could get out of the gun. In my opinion the 41 is better but still not in the same league as the 44 or 45 colt. (IMO once you step up to a 44 or 45 theres no real reason to use anything but cast) Personaly i prefer jacketed bullets in the 41 too. the .40 falls in that same grey zone. Ive shot a couple deer with my 610 10mm using cast and really wasnt impressed. Part of the problem is theres ont alot of good cast bullet designs out there for the 10s.  Ive shot a couple hogs with it with cast too and again it killed them dead but not on the spot. I shot only one deer with a jhp out of the 610. It dropped like it was hit by the hammer of thor. Now that was just one example and i dont really believe it would happen every time but if i was going to hunt steady with a 10mm id give serious thought to a 200 grain jhp.

[Larry Gibson]

Redhawk1
 
Getting enough "facts"?  I believe the point is made. No hard feelings here.  Hard cast do kill well enough and you certainly are entitled to use them, I use them myself as stated.  However, soft cast  bullets, HP or not, that expand and JSP/JHPs that expand (properly selected and used ones) do kill a bit quicker and to many it is important to kill the animal as quickly as possible.  Just another view/option is all.
 
Larry Gibson

[sixshot]

 I've taken a few deer with jacketed slugs & a lot of deer with cast & I've never had a problem with either. Even though I'm a die heart cast bullet hunter I think jacketed is probably best for deer, especially for the eastern hunter that hunts from a stand & needs a faster kill. Also I think the 357 is marginal although it will work if the stars line up, I've done it a few times but there are lots of better choices. As mentioned, deer aren't hard to kill if the shot is placed correctly & a decent bullet is used so that you get sufficient penetration.
 Moving beyond deer my experience has been almost totally with cast although I've taken one elk with a 270 gr Speer Gold Dot & it worked great. Of the 25 elk I've taken over the years 11 have been with revolvers & I really haven't seen an ounce worth of difference between the 41, the 44 or the 45 with heavy cast slugs. Mine usually aren't cast very hard, maybe 12-14 BHN getting the nod most of the time, I've also taken moose, black bear, lion, pronghorn & African game using the same alloy.
 Two elk with the 41 maggie using cast, one with a 230 gr slug, the other with a 250 gr LBT, one went 20 yds, the other never took a step. Five with the 44 maggie, one traveled 70-80 yds because I hit it too far back with a 250 gr Keith, the others were down in seconds. Four with the 45 Colt & 260 gr & 325 gr cast slugs. I stated a while back I had only taken 3 with the 45.....forgot one! The bull moose was taken with a Ruger 480 & a 370 gr softnose cast, he took 10-15 steps & went down.
  I still think the softnose cast is the finest hunting bullet in the world for the handgun hunter once he's expeimented with them at his chosen velocity
  Jacketed slugs have came a long way since the 60's when I started using them & many are great & have been used on very large game with great results. I know Ken O'Neil & Lynn Thompson have taken game all over the world with jacketed slugs, animals up to 2,000 lbs & never had a problem if shots were placed correctly.
Dick
 

[Lloyd Smale]

sixshot i havent fooled with cast soft nosed bullets for about 3 or 4 years. I was fooling around with them a bit before i lost all my gear in the fire and never got back to it. I did kill a few deer and a couple hogs with the 4570 using soft nosed 405 rcbs rfs though and they sure knocked the snot of what the hit and they allways gave good penetration too. Kind of fun to fool around making too. It takes a bit of technique to get good looking ones.

[Redhawk1]

Redhawk1
 
Getting enough "facts"?  I believe the point is made. No hard feelings here.  Hard cast do kill well enough and you certainly are entitled to use them, I use them myself as stated.  However, soft cast  bullets, HP or not, that expand and JSP/JHPs that expand (properly selected and used ones) do kill a bit quicker and to many it is important to kill the animal as quickly as possible.  Just another view/option is all.
 
Larry Gibson

Not at all, I don't think one bullet kills faster than another. As pointed out, shot placement means more than bullet construction. I use what works, not what someone tries to sell me on. I have hunted with hollow point bullets when I first started out handgun hunting with my 357 Mag. Sure they worked, and I killed deer. But I also put the bullet in the heart lung area, and that is what killed them. The hollow points I used in my 357 Mag, not all would exit, and to me that was unacceptable.  Now when I got into hunting larger game, I hunted in heavy wooded areas, and tracking was difficult. So I wanted to make sure I had an exit wound as well, 2 holes lets out blood quicker, and also makes for better tracking if needed. I also moved up to 44 Mag and larger rounds, where expansion is not heeded when you start out with a 44 or 45 caliber hole.

[Larry Gibson]

expansion is not heeded when you start out with a 44 or 45 caliber hole
 
Just a mater of opinion, yours differs from many and visa versa.  I have to ask if the 357 with HPs killed the deer fine with HPs given perfect bullet placement then why the need for the step up to the .44 Magnum?  Your mention of tracking is just what I mentioned.  The quicker the deer die the less the tracking even with perfect bullet placement.  If one bullet kills as well (as quickly) as the other then why not a round nose .38 SPL or a .22LR or a RN .44 SPL or a .45 FMJ?  If what you say is correct they all will kill just as quickly if put the bullet in the heart /lung area as your hard cast bullets or expanding bullets..........I wonder why all those are illegal to use?  We all know why they are illegal, because they don't kill efficintly regardless of bullet placement and animals suffer a lingering death and many are, or would be, lost as they would go a long distance before dying and would be lost.  Oh well, you've your opinion and I've mine.  I shall continue to proffer such advise to use expanding bullets for hunting.  Those who understand will listen, those who don't won't.  Good luck hunting.......
 
Larry Gibson

[Lloyd Smale]

Ill go this larry. I just like redhawk like an exit wound when i shoot animals. It does make tracking easier and if you shoot enough deer with a handgun youll know that you WILL track deer. Even properly hit deer. Another reason i like cast is the way i shoot deer with a handgun. I dont fool around with behind the shoulder shots. Again because i detest tracking. I shoot a deer with a handgun right on the shoulder. A cast bullet of proper size, weight and alloy will blow through any deers shoulders and usually dump them on the spot. A cast bullet too when used like that does very little meat damage. As to the 357 vs 44/45 arguement ill say this. Lots of deer were shot back in the day with 2520s and 3220s. Ive done it myself. Lots of those rifles went into the closets of guys that bought 06s and other more powerful guns when they became available. Bottom line though I have better guns available. I just cant see risking a once in a lifetime shot at a trophy deer going bad because i wanted to prove a 357 was good enough. The 357 is a great self defense/home defense gun but its not and never will be a great hunting gun anymore then the chances of the 3220 making a big comeback as a rifle/deer hunting round.
 
My arguements will go back and forth at times depending on the thread. Ive posted in the past that yes a 3220 or a 357 will kill deer. Youd have to be an idiot to say differnt. its been done to many times and its been done by me myself. Bottom line is im a firm believer in using enough gun. Sure a buffalo can be shot with a 44 mag. Again ive done it but 99 percent of the time your going to see me hunting them with a 475 or 500. WHY? because the just flat do a better job. Same goes for long range deer shooting when we are doing crop damage shooting. Some may laugh at shooting whitetail with 300 wby 300win 264 mag 7 mag 7stw ect but i use them often. Why? because under those conditions they leave the standard less powerful rifles in there dust.
 
Now back to your statement larry. In a perfect world where bullet placement is perfect every time a 357 will kill deer. Shoot enough deer and your going to eventualy pull a shot and shot placement wont be exact. Ive shot enough deer with handguns, probably as many as anyone here and have found when opening them up that theres not much differnce between the wound channel of a jacketed bullet and one of a good cast bullet. Ive seen jhps fail miserably on game. NOT deer though but ive seen them fail on pigs and bear. Ive NEVER seen a cast bullet fail to kill an animal that was hit in the right place. I think you and i know that redhawk wasnt refering to .22 or round nosed 38s when he made that statement. He was comparing how quickly cast kill compared to jacketed and i do have to agree with him that in my experience there isnt much differnce. Maybe one time a deer might take one less leap or two when hit with a jhp. But when they dont pile right up finding them is defineately easier when there leaking out two holes.

[Mikey]

Lloyd:  don't know if this will be of any help for youor not but there are 4 cast offerings I am aware of for the 38-40/10mm and one of them may float your boat.  3 are by Lyman and I'm sure you would have to search around for their molds but there are two handgun bullets, a 170 and 172 gn - the 170 is a Keith style swc, the 172 is a rnfp carbine slug I'm sure.  A 3rd Lyman slug is a 196 gn (definately Keith/Keith style) swc but it may be too long for a handgun.  A 4th slug, my personal preference, is a Keith design from RCBS, their 40170 swc.  Cast from wheelweight it ran about 180 gns, from pure lead about 185 (great for target work), from a Lyman #2 Alloy formula it ran about 178 gns but with a 10% linotype mix it dropped to 170 gn and from straight linotype it ran at about 165 gn. 
I'm certain that with the advent of the 10mm and the 40 S&W there are more cast out there but I'm not familiar with thier profiles, but HTH.

[Redhawk1]

Larry, I guess in your hast to post, you missed when I put when I moved to larger game, I moved up in caliber.. Slow down and read what I wrote. But even now I prefer larger holes in my game, hence not using a 357 Mag any longer for handgun hunting larger game from deer on up. There is no such thing as over kill! 
 
If you have to ask about that 38 special and .22 caliber, as well as the others you mentioned, you just don't get it do you.
Also if you look at all my posts, I never said anything about round nose bullets, that is just your attempt to muddy the water with rhetoric, and yes you are entitled to your opinion even if I think you are wrong!
 
Never wrestle with a pig, you will both end up dirty!   

[Lloyd Smale]

Mikey when i had my 610 i had a 200 and a 220 grain ballistic cast lfn mold. they did real well in the 10s. I dont know how theyd funtion through semi autos though as i never tried them. I have that lyman 170 rf 3840 mold too. If i was to tackle the 10mm hunting again id probably have a 200 grain wfn cut for it. Im not a wfn fan but in rounds like the 357,40and 41s they do have a bit of advantage as meplats can be on the small side in them using lfns and swcs.

Lloyd:  don't know if this will be of any help for youor not but there are 4 cast offerings I am aware of for the 38-40/10mm and one of them may float your boat.  3 are by Lyman and I'm sure you would have to search around for their molds but there are two handgun bullets, a 170 and 172 gn - the 170 is a Keith style swc, the 172 is a rnfp carbine slug I'm sure.  A 3rd Lyman slug is a 196 gn (definately Keith/Keith style) swc but it may be too long for a handgun.  A 4th slug, my personal preference, is a Keith design from RCBS, their 40170 swc.  Cast from wheelweight it ran about 180 gns, from pure lead about 185 (great for target work), from a Lyman #2 Alloy formula it ran about 178 gns but with a 10% linotype mix it dropped to 170 gn and from straight linotype it ran at about 165 gn. 
I'm certain that with the advent of the 10mm and the 40 S&W there are more cast out there but I'm not familiar with thier profiles, but HTH.

[Gallahad]

Guess i will chime back in now, lots of good arguments, and looks like either will work depending on shot placement. (pretty much exactly what I thought) like I said, just wanted some real world experience, and I got it. thank you gbo! Thanks to all posters. heres some more info. I'm using a glock 24 6" 40 s&w, (with fully supported barrel) and looking at double tap LOADED ammo.  didn't say this at the beginning cause I didn't want to hear any arguments about a 40 being inadequate for hunting. like most said, bullet weight, design, speed, and placement are what dictates a good hunting round.  I hear the dt ammo runs a little slower than their claims, but I should be getting closer to 1100 fps from their 200 gr. loads with the 6" barrel. just rather be conservative. ballistics calculators Iv'e looked at show good trajectory, and good energy past 75 yds. I will go with the cast load. like I said, 200 gr. wide flat nose hard cast gas check, at (1050 fps from a 4" bbl, I'm hoping for better) has a brn. hardness of 21. met plate is .320" Loyde, dt makes a few bullets they sell for 40 and 10 mm. designed for hunting. might want to check em out, unless you wanted to cast your own.?
       I have used several different high powered rifles of 30-7mm calibers. I have always tried to shoot deer behind the shoulder, so as not to waste meat. some have went 20 ft. and some have went hundreds of yds. ALL of them had soup for lungs! deer can do things that don't seem physically possible. Iv'e been resolved for a few years to start shooting for bone (shoulder) because of tight boundaries, but always find myself going for right behind the shoulder, center of deer. I think subconsciously im thinking that with shooter error i have the best chance of cleanly killing the animal aiming there.  never had a problem with the shooter error part, but have seen my father shoot EVERY deer he shoots in a stand square in the shoulder, and almost never tracks one. Now I have shot a deer with the 357, and jacketed soft nose 158 grainers. only deer I ever shot in the shoulder. released ALL its energy before hitting bone. slammed the deer to the ground, which was impressive, but the deer proceeded to jump up, run down the trail, stop look back at me,  and walk another 100 yds to a field where it grazed like nothing ever happened. That was the first handgun hunting experience I had, and it made me really think about bullet choice. If I ever hunted with a 357 again, it would be 200 gr expanding. I have killed deer with 44 mag and xtp's.  no problems, just as much tracking as the rifles with lung shots. the 40 I have no hunting experience with, hence this posting. everything I have shot through this lone wolf barrel has been crazy accurate, so i'm looking forward to shooting the cast loads..........into a bucks scapula.       thanks guys.

[Larry Gibson]

As you note, the "behind the shoulder shot, many times leaves a lot to be desired.  Had an old hunter tell me many years ago that was not the best shot, especially with handguns and rifles of 2200 fps or less.  He said to envision a large grapefruit or soccor ball low against the brisket between the legs.  That area is where the heart is, the thickest and densest part of the lungs and most of the arteries and viens comming and going concentrate there.  It also is low and allows blood to leak out quicker than a higher shot or a behind the shoulder shot.  Put a bullet through the grapefruit or ball regardless of the angle and the bullet will do the most terminal damage resulting in loss of blood pressure to the brain much quicker.  Bleeding will obviously be greater and quicker.  Most often at least one of the legs will be taken out also.  Since taking that advise I've not had a single deer (there have been many) go more than 40 yards when shot with a handgun or rifle.  Most either drop in place or stagger and go down.  Yes, a little more meat is damaged but not that much, especially compared to the amount from a lost deer.  You might consider that shot.
 
Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Larry, I guess in your hast to post, you missed when I put when I moved to larger game, I moved up in caliber.. Slow down and read what I wrote. But even now I prefer larger holes in my game, hence not using a 357 Mag any longer for handgun hunting larger game from deer on up. There is no such thing as over kill! 
 
If you have to ask about that 38 special and .22 caliber, as well as the others you mentioned, you just don't get it do you.
Also if you look at all my posts, I never said anything about round nose bullets, that is just your attempt to muddy the water with rhetoric, and yes you are entitled to your opinion even if I think you are wrong!
 
Never wrestle with a pig, you will both end up dirty!   

Ok, tired of wrestling with the pig.  You win, larger holes (as in made by expanding bullets?) kill quicker so we are in agreement.
 
Larry Gibson

[Lloyd Smale]

gallahand my shooting on the shoulder was stickly a handgun and lever gun with cast bullet thing. With a centerfire bolt gun shooting high velocity ammo i allways, or at least when possible shoot behind the shoulder. A hit with a 257 wby or a 300 mag will do a bit of damage to a shoulder if you hit one 

[Redhawk1]

Larry, I guess in your hast to post, you missed when I put when I moved to larger game, I moved up in caliber.. Slow down and read what I wrote. But even now I prefer larger holes in my game, hence not using a 357 Mag any longer for handgun hunting larger game from deer on up. There is no such thing as over kill! 
 
If you have to ask about that 38 special and .22 caliber, as well as the others you mentioned, you just don't get it do you.
Also if you look at all my posts, I never said anything about round nose bullets, that is just your attempt to muddy the water with rhetoric, and yes you are entitled to your opinion even if I think you are wrong!
 
Never wrestle with a pig, you will both end up dirty!   

Ok, tired of wrestling with the pig.  You win, larger holes (as in made by expanding bullets?) kill quicker so we are in agreement.
 
Larry Gibson

Nope still not in agreement, if you used a larger caliber bullet, you would not need expansion..  Now have a nice day Larry. 

[irold]

After reading and rereading these posts.......its tough to offer an opinion.  Seems everyone has some sort of facts to offer. Well in my limited experience ( 8-10 deer ) I've always used Horn XTP bullets with my 44s and 45s for hunting.  They've always worked , by worked I mean , I ended up with deer IF I put the bullet where it was supposed to be. I've lost 2 deer.......my fault , not the XTP.  ALL my deer had to be tracked....with one exception....shot one with a 460 , thru the front end...it was my only bang -flop with a handgun.  ALL others , even with heart and lungs destroyed have gone anywhere from 40 yards to 150 yds.  MOST handguns do not have the shocking power of a high power rifle to give ya the bang-flops, esp shot through the lungs.  Never used a cast to hunt with...no need to. As far as I'm concerned the XTP type or style of bullet does its job. ( I'm talking for deer , larger game may be a different story) 
 
Redhawk , you mentioned when you first started hunting you used some sort of hollow points.....now, by your own admission that was a long time ago......perhaps the newer XTP style bullets are superior to the older version that you used....maybe ? 
 
Well , anyway , bottom line is: bullet placement is the key....a properly placed XTP WILL kill deer, and effeciently.  And in my opinion , a flattened out 44 makes a bigger mess inside the ribcage than a pencile sized hole running through. ( though most of my kills have been thru and thru )
 
Remember its OMHO .....
 
regards , irold

[Redhawk1]

irold, I did not say they did not work. My whole problem with the other argument is, a hollow point kills faster than a hard cast bullet. I want to see who has been holding the stop watch to check them facts out?  I have been using hard cast bullets for a long time with my handgun for hunting, and they work. I see no need to switch to hollow points. Seen a few that did not do the job, so I am not sold on them, and will not use them. Personal preference. As I stated before, with larger diameter bullets, you don't need expansion.