Author Topic: Interesting small gun in Florida Silver Springs Park Museum (Read 1856 times)

copdoc · « **on:** February 26, 2012, 05:56:45 AM »

I don't know anything other than what the tag says but took some pics. It was supposed to have been used by the Florida 2nd Cav. I am not sure how they would have carried it. I thought you guys would be interested and I would appreciate any information or comments, well educational comments.

KABAR2 · « **Reply #1 on:** February 26, 2012, 09:12:58 AM »

Foundry cast small size and bore most likey a signal cannon..... doubt verymuch it was a Civil War piece....

cannonmn · « **Reply #2 on:** February 26, 2012, 10:56:08 AM »

Agree 100% with what Allen said. It has nothing to do with the ACW. Many museums don't have the resources to check things out, and simply repeat in their signage what "history" came with a piece upon donation.

Artilleryman · « **Reply #3 on:** February 26, 2012, 03:09:00 PM »

It appears to be about two foot long. Are there any measurements on this piece?

copdoc · « **Reply #4 on:** February 26, 2012, 04:28:21 PM »

Thanks for looking. It does appear 20-24 inches long. Bore is 2.25 per info and does appear that size. They had no other info on it when I asked one of the employees a few years ago. Has anyone seen an extended muzzle like this one?

cannonmn · « **Reply #5 on:** February 26, 2012, 07:00:29 PM »

Quote

Has anyone seen an extended muzzle like this one?

I haven't seen a muzzle design just like that. Come to think of it, have not seen one very close to it at all.
One way to verify that some of these old iron guns were salute guns and not tactical weapons is to lift them by the trunnions and see if the muzzle tilts up or down when it is off of the ground. If the piece is muzzle-heavy and looks even very generally like that piece, it is almost certainly a salute gun. If it is breech-heavy, it still may be a salute gun but at least has one of the most basic characteristics of a m/l cannon-type weapon, namely "preponderance" or breech-heaviness..

copdoc · « **Reply #6 on:** February 27, 2012, 01:07:22 PM »

Quote

I haven't seen a muzzle design just like that. Come to think of it, have not seen one very close to it at all

Me either and I have looked at quite a few over the years. If it were vertically cast/bored that muzzle would be extra work and for what.

? It is kind of reminiscent of the breech of the breech loaders from the 15th century. Certainly not a civil war field piece although I guess it could have been fired in the CW. I wondered if it were post war piece used for reunions and that is where they got the history.

BTW I had not posted for a while and can not seem to paste or use spell checker. Have there been changes to how it works? Misspelled word is underlined but I can not click to correct. I have to think...

jamesfrom180 · « **Reply #7 on:** February 28, 2012, 04:42:49 AM »

http://civilwarflorida.blogspot.com/2010/11/jj-dickisons-cannon-on-display-at.html

Does not add any clarity to the party but interesting to say the least. As the second battle of Gainesville I believe a cannon was captured by the rebels. This will require a visit and some good research.

P.S.
I've looked into this scrimmage a few times. Every time I come up with a new questions. It appears 3 union guns and 2 confederate gun engaged each other at the 2nd battle of Gainesville. It appears that 1 union gun a 12 pound howitzer was captured. Conflicting reports seem to say possibly only one union gun was present and J.J.Dickinson captured that gun in a Union disorderly retreat.

http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00018183/00001/1j <interesting article on the battles

If the gun is indeed a 2 1/4" bore that would mean it could fire a 12.40lb cast iron ball. So what pattern piece did the Union gun crew have in Battery A, 3rd Rhode Island Heavy Artillery? Or what pattern gun did the rebels have?

Zulu · « **Reply #8 on:** February 28, 2012, 06:07:04 AM »

Isn't a 12 pounder 4.62"?
Zulu

Artilleryman · « **Reply #9 on:** February 28, 2012, 06:41:53 AM »

I think 2 1/4 inch iron projectile is around 1 1/4 lbs.

cannonmn · « **Reply #10 on:** February 28, 2012, 07:39:08 AM »

The piece in the museum was never used nor tested by the Union army. I've been "all over" the records of what was used and what was tested, as those records exist in the National Archives, and there's nothing like this, even though there were many even stranger contraptions.
Will you be able to find out if it is muzzle-heavy?

jamesfrom180 · « **Reply #11 on:** February 28, 2012, 08:24:07 AM »

The 12 lbs was a calculated value using cast iron. I doubt it is very accurate numbers. I thought a 4 1/2" was close to a 12 lb. I have no idea what that gun is. I still suspect its a salute gun.

yup or I didn't cube the radius. So it looks like it was me.

GGaskill · « **Reply #12 on:** February 28, 2012, 12:37:28 PM »

Maybe you used 2.25" as the radius instead of the diameter.

Artilleryman · « **Reply #13 on:** February 28, 2012, 12:45:00 PM »

Interesting location of the casting part line, ninety degrees off the normal location through the trunnions.

cannonmn · « **Reply #14 on:** February 28, 2012, 04:15:00 PM »

Quote

Interesting location of the casting part line, ninety degrees off the normal
location through the trunnions.

Agreed, you don't run into that too often. Here's one of the few "real" cannons I've run into with that feature, the one on top left (mis) labelled "British iron...field." Craig, the site author, does not agree with me when I say it isn't what he says it is, but people will differ. That gun is marked "LANGLEY" in stipple engraving on the breech, and that could be a maker's name. I don't have any info on a cannon founder by that name. The gun is displayed outdoors at (George) Washington's Office Museum in Winchester, VA, has been there "forever" and I'm sure the small museum has no idea about it. To me the vertical parting line indicates a founder that was trying an expedient and wasn't doing many cannons, but I would have a hard time proving that because I'm not familiar enough with old-time iron foundry procedures aside from basic knowledge of cope and drag, risers, etc.
http://markerhunter.wordpress.com/2011/04/21/6-pdr-field-gun-origins/#comment-5845

jamesfrom180 · « **Reply #15 on:** February 29, 2012, 03:02:20 AM »

I find this topic interesting for a few reasons.

Florida would have been relatively full of possible cannon. Between mixed international possession and on going conflicts with the native population artillery has been in Florida since the first Europeans. That and the fact the wrecks of many armed merchant seamen would have been on her coast would mean any unknown piece could have been salvaged.

Second antebellum Florida would have had less Union presence and I would assume that something heavy like a cannon would have been left. I think someone more familiar with the Civil War could agree or offer the true facts on that supposition.

The guerrilla fighter this cannon is attributed to was known to have an used a howitzer through most of his fighting. We have found that this was not a known or a tested design utilized by the Union army, so the conclusion could be that this gun would not have been the captured piece from Gainesville.

Could this barrel be some salvaged piece? Could it have been imported at some time through the Caribbean? Or is this some saulute gun manufactured for a veterans group? It would be nice to measure and see if the preponderance is toward the rear.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #16 on:** February 29, 2012, 04:29:32 AM »

Do you know if this barrel has a reduced powder chamber?

copdoc · « **Reply #17 on:** March 03, 2012, 06:12:25 PM »

It would be interesting to know the history.

I'll look at the other pics. I remember trying to see if I could see a powder chamber.

Sorry for slow response. Things are hectic and I did not get an email that there was a response.

copdoc · « **Reply #18 on:** March 04, 2012, 02:39:30 AM »

Here is a pic where I shined a flashlight in the bore. I still was not sure if it had a powder chamber.

copdoc · « **Reply #19 on:** March 04, 2012, 02:40:50 AM »

Here is a closeup of flash hole

Artilleryman · « **Reply #20 on:** March 04, 2012, 04:46:20 AM »

Lots of erosion in the vent, but probably not from firing. From the large "cup" at the top of the vent it would also appear that it was made to be primed with loose powder.

copdoc · « **Reply #21 on:** March 04, 2012, 05:05:08 AM »

Quote from: Artilleryman on March 04, 2012, 04:46:20 AM

Lots of erosion in the vent, but probably not from firing. From the large "cup" at the top of the vent it would also appear that it was made to be primed with loose powder.

The close ups show a lot of erosion over all the cannon, but it is in Florida. Agree it looks like the vent was enlarged to take loose powder.

I think the unusual muzzle will be the key to ID but if no one here recognizes that style so I am probably out of luck. I wish I had the time to take it out of the case and make some measurements.

jamesfrom180 thanks for references.

cannonmn · « **Reply #22 on:** March 04, 2012, 06:19:50 AM »

Quote

I think the unusual muzzle will be the key to ID but if no one here recognizes
that style

It sounds like you've been looking for similar pieces somewhere, which I don't think you will ever find. Many of this general type of saluting gun was made as a one-off, so this will be the only one like it, in my opinion anyway.

Here's what may have been a typical scenario. Someone, a vet's unit or whatever, wanted a parade/salute cannon and went to the nearest foundry. That foundry had never cast a cannon before so they sent the vet's post rep back home to make a sketch of what he wanted. When he came back with it, they sent him to a local pattern-maker. He came back three weeks later with a wood pattern. The foundry worked that one-off into their production schedule and told him to come back in about a month. He did, and picked up the casting in his wagon, and took it to the local machinist for boring and finishing. When he got it back from the machinist, the appointed or volunteer vets at his post got busy and cobbled up a carriage for it. Sound like a possibility?

copdoc · « **Reply #23 on:** March 04, 2012, 06:32:15 AM »

Quote from: cannonmn on March 04, 2012, 06:19:50 AM

Quote
I think the unusual muzzle will be the key to ID but if no one here recognizes
that style

It sounds like you've been looking for similar pieces somewhere, which I don't think you will ever find. Many of this general type of saluting gun was made as a one-off, so this will be the only one like it, in my opinion anyway.

Here's what may have been a typical scenario. Someone, a vet's unit or whatever, wanted a parade/salute cannon and went to the nearest foundry. That foundry had never cast a cannon before so they sent the vet's post rep back home to make a sketch of what he wanted. When he came back with it, they sent him to a local pattern-maker. He came back three weeks later with a wood pattern. The foundry worked that one-off into their production schedule and told him to come back in about a month. He did, and picked up the casting in his wagon, and took it to the local machinist for boring and finishing. When he got it back from the machinist, the appointed or volunteer vets at his post got busy and cobbled up a carriage for it. Sound like a possibility?

Yes, my best guess is it is a post war "reunion piece" but who knows. Thanks to all who looked. It is a nice little museum by the way if anyone of you are close.

jamesfrom180 · « **Reply #24 on:** March 06, 2012, 07:56:40 AM »

Quote

Mr. Ares,

Thank you for the interest in the cannon and for informing me of the online discussion regarding it. The exhibit text associated with the gun reads "2 1/4" Howitzer reputed to have been used with Dickison's cavalry unit."

]The cannon is on loan to our museum from the Florida Museum of History in Tallahassee. The exhibit text is based on the state records associated with the gun. They were supplied by the donor and are as follows:

]The gun was donated to the state during the 1960s by a R.L. Hawkins of Palatka, FL. The gun was formerly the property of the Newbeck Family of Palatka. The gun came into the Newbeck family through a woman that married into the Newbecks. She was the mother of a Joe Grooms who served as a Private in the 2nd Florida Cavalry. He also fought at Brown's Landing with Dickison and was later promoted to Captain and served in the Volunteer Rangers under Dickison. A cannon (and possibly this one) is said to be mentioned by Dickison in his memoirs Florida Soldiers in the Civil War.

I have not researched the story behind the cannon and would welcome any insight your group can offer. Please feel free to contact me here at the museum and also to distribute this information to the rest of the group you are involved with.

Thank you for your interest in the gun and we appreciate you contacting us.

Scott E. Mitchell, Director Silver River Museum & Environmental Education Center 1445 NE 58th Avenue
Ocala, FL 34470
(352) 236-5401 scott.mitchell@marion.k12.fl.us www.SilverRiverMuseum.com
Marion County Public Schools
An Equal Opportunity School District
From: James Ares [jamesfrom180@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2012 9:33 AM
To: Mitchell, Scott - Silver River Museum
Subject: One of your exibits is being greatly debated.

Hello,

Mr. Mitchell I would like to bring to your attention the fact that an exhibit at your museum has caused a kind of buzz on an online community I am part of. I myself would not have known about this part of your museum except for this posting, though I have been aware of the museum itself for quite a wile. My name is James H. Ares and I have been interpreting history as a child my whole life. My family exposed me to this hobby and I have been involved with multiple events from Williamsburg, and St. Augustine, to the Harvest fair in Dade County. One era of US history I am rather un-involved with is the Civil War. Just recently I have become active in ordnance. This leads me to why I have contacted you. First here is the link to the forum discussing the J.J. Dickinson cannon.

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,252656.0.html

If you could it would be nice if you could either elaborate or have someone familiar with this piece answer some of the questions posed. If you do not have time I will be more than happy to discuss this topic with the appropriate curator or historian in charge of this. This community is one of the most knowledgeable and helpful bunch of individuals I have ever found regarding this sometimes confusing topic. I do hope to make it to your museum in the near future as I have put off that trip too long. I live in Gainesville so it really isn't that far.

Sincerely,

James H. Ares

I thought I would share this correspondence. I thought it might be of some interest to the group here.

copdoc · « **Reply #25 on:** March 06, 2012, 08:48:56 AM »

Thanks James

I appreciate the interest and the shared information. This may get some attention to a very nice little museum and park. Maybe they will invite us all for a cannon shoot and gator roast. The Silver river have plenty of them. Gators that is.

jamesfrom180 · « **Reply #26 on:** March 06, 2012, 10:01:33 AM »

My company has a loose affiliation with Pete Butt who was attacked on the Silver River by an 11 foot gator. Its a hazard of working around here. It would be good to have the museum get some attention as too many people are here in Florida and do not know the very rich history in this state.

copdoc · « **Reply #27 on:** March 06, 2012, 10:02:20 AM »

addition

Here are two more cannon from the museum if anyone is interested. Pics of Ross Allen's Randall available but I guess they don't fit here.

copdoc · « **Reply #28 on:** March 06, 2012, 10:10:34 AM »

Quote from: jamesfrom180 on March 06, 2012, 10:01:33 AM

My company has a loose affiliation with Pete Butt who was attacked on the Silver River by an 11 foot gator. Its a hazard of working around here. It would be good to have the museum get some attention as too many people are here in Florida and do not know the very rich history in this state.

I hated to hear about that attack. The gators are a real hazard that are getting worse with their protection and the population explosion. Florida does have a very rich history. I wish I had more time to learn about it. I have many pics of the gun of the Castillo also. I think I posted some of them a long time ago.

cannonmn · « **Reply #29 on:** March 06, 2012, 09:08:18 PM »

Quote

I have many pics of the gun of the Castillo also.