.22 Magnum calmly and quietly

[keith44]

Today I dusted off an old friend and hunting companion and burned through a few dozen rounds.  At one time this was the most powerful rifle I could afford (both to purchase and to feed) These days it barely gets a mention, and I was curious why.


The rifle is a Marlin Model 25MN chambered in .22 Magnum.  7 shot clip came standard, very simple bolt action.  Anyone ever considered something like this for a survival rifle??  Why or Why not??

[cwlongshot]

One thing I will say if you do choose it... buy a couple extractors... they are known to break.  It snaps around the bolt, simple instal but once broke you got a hard time reloading...
 
I like the rifle and its siblings.
 
CW

[schoolmaster]

The 22 mag is one of my favorite hunting rounds. I have 3 of them. One is accurate enough to meet my standards for a small game rifle. Ironically it was the cheapest of the 3 and and was bought for a knock around truck gun. It has enough power for deer with a well placed shot and enough punch for groundhogs out to 125 yds or so. It is a great pest gun. The down side is it has no subsonic ammo to use with a sound suppressor. It is hard to find one that is accurate enough to shoot squirrels with consistantly. The ammo is more expensive and heavier than the .22 LR. A positive is that you can have a companion pistol using the same ammo. As much as I like the rifle and the round, it would not be my first choice as a survival gun. However I wouldn't feel too bad if a 22 mag was all I had.

[Couger]

.22 mangle-um?      it has its place!
 
I wouldn't mind having a 16 1/4" Contender or Encore barrel in .22WRF after acquiring other bbls first.  That length would be legal to use on the T/C S.S. as a rifle or handgun. 
 
North American Arms makes those 'novelty' belt buckle size mini 5-shot revolvers I don't have much interest in, until one gets to their four-inch models!  With both the Magnum and LR cylinders such smallish 4" pistol could fit in a small pocket, and still be powerful enough to hunt small game or defend against a thug if need be!
 
I've been playing with a .218 Bee in a handi-rifle, partly to see what handloads can imitate the .22WRF especially (and quietly), or even long rifle velocities.
 
Besides the extra parts if you're supporting a .22WRF, can you find enough ammo!

[mattmillerrx]

I have.  I think it makes a great survival rifle.  Many have discussed the benefits of the 22lr for survival and most of them carrier over to the mag.  Those being: a lot of ammo can be carried, rifles are typically affordable, ammo although over shadowed by the economy of the 22lr is also affordable.  Actually, I am paying 6 to 8 dollars a box for 22lr ammo to get good group for target shooting/matches.  I get the same groups out of my mag with 8 to 9 dollar 22 mag ammo and can maintain better groups at longer ranges.  The mag ammo is hunting ammo not match grade.  The point here is: (1) the price gap is not as large as it seems when comparing the quality of the ammo, (2) you get extended range with the mag, (3) a little extra power.


Now, the range of game you can take with the mag is larger than with the 22lr and in a survival situation I would have no issue stretching that to include deer...you will have to keep your range in mind.  You will also have to choose ammo carefully to do this.  Many of the rounds are fragmenting rounds.  They are great for prairie dogs but not for the larger game.  The tougher bullets like cci hp's or cci gamepoints would be better for the larger game.  You would also want to take as many head shots as possible on smaller game to aviod meat damage.  I need to test my theory, but I believe the gamepoints being tougher bullets may enter and exist small game with little expansion, so there would be little meat damage.


I picked up a cz 452 Lux in 22 mag to do some varmint and predator hunting with as the main purpose for now, but with the secondary purpose of a survival rifle in mind.  This model has the sight that can be adjusted from 25 yards out to an optimistic 200 yards.  This type of sight somewhat extends the range of the gun, since you do not have to guess as much at hold over.  A scope with the extra lines in it would accomplish the same.


If needed it could be used for protection, not ideal of course, and likely a little under powered...but could be used in this roll.


It is a non-military caliper.  Not that this matters much in most survival situations, but in several books I have read these are the first to be banned under martial law or some other type of government ruling.  Again these are fictional accounts, but this is a point that has stuck with me.


Pro:
most rifles are light weight
ammo is small and light allowing for more carry
extends game capabilities over 22lr
extends range over 22 lr
guns and ammo are relatively in expensive
lots of game can be taken


Cons:
Under powered for self defense
under powered for large game

[charles p]

Nice rifle.  Curb your imagination about the end of the world and survival.  How many of your neighbors are you planning to shoot over a pound of dried beans.

[keith44]

Nice rifle.  Curb your imagination about the end of the world and survival.  How many of your neighbors are you planning to shoot over a pound of dried beans.

 


I am not planning to shoot any of my neighbors, though there is one with rather loud pipes...


anyway the idea was if the .22 LR is so heavily promoted what are everyone's thoughts on its larger cousin (not brother / sister due to a different bullet design and diameter)

[teamnelson]

Kel-Tec developed the PMR-30 .22WMR for a reason ... there's a market, and it ain't offhand bullseye competition with a 30 rd magazine. The 22WMR produces a lot of energy, as some have pointed out more energy than a .45 auto, with 1/6th the bullet. There's something else that delivers a .224 bullet that is commonly used for human beings if I recall correctly, the .22WMR just doesn't give you the range and ME but by the time the 223 is at 500 yds (point target, 850 area target) we consider it still effective on troops. Look at the ballistics tables and see what the 22WMR is doing at 100yds. Worked with enough trauma docs to know that the nastiest piece of business is sewing up all the nicks a .22 bullet does when it bounces around soft tissue and organs. I personally feel any bullet wound after the SHTF is potentially fatal, from shock to staph infection, to bleeding out. Please don't shoot me in the stomach if I can't call 911, or have access to clean hot water, and a sterile needle and twine, and some broad spectrum anti-biotics.

If all I had was your .22wmr rifle and brick of ammo, I'd be better than hopeful.

[Couger]

Nice rifle.  Curb your imagination about the end of the world and survival.  How many of your neighbors are you planning to shoot over a pound of dried beans.

 I apolgize for calling you a gubmnt schill, in that I know you're not a troll.     But why do you care whether your neighbor worries about bullets, beans and the long-term preparations?

[Drilling Man]

It is hard to find one that is accurate enough to shoot squirrels with consistantly.

  HUH??  I'm not sure what kind of problem 22WMR's you own, but i have several 22WMR's, and ALL of them are accurate enough to easily take squirrels beyond 50 yards.
 
  My Rem. 597M will shoot thumb nail sized groups at 60 yds, a squirrel would be in big trouble at 100 yards!  Even my short Krieghoff insert bbl. will shoot inch or so groups at 50 yards.
 
  You need to sort out the problems with your rifles.
 
  DM

[SHOOTALL]

The 22 mag has a standard jacketed bullet vs the lead or washed heel type bullet of the LR gun. That should make it more moisture proof. The 22 mag from a rifle is no sissy . What it lacks is stopping power. What I would take to fit the same use would be a 30 carbine. It is about the same size, weight (gun) , auto loading, and ammo taks up about 1/2 as much more space. With SP or HP ammo it would be a better stopper coupled with a self loading weapon. With FMJ's it could take small game with little distruction of the eating parts. With HP or SP it can take deer.

[mannyrock]

 
  On paper at least, the .22 Mag rifle has a whole lot going for it as a one-rifle option in a disruption scenario.
 
   Adequate for self-defense out to 125 yards or so.
 
   Adequate for small game out to 150 yards, and for deer out to 50 yards.
 
   I'm sorry, but I don't understand this constant complaint that .22 mag ammo is "very expensive."  Compared to what?  You can  get 50 rounds of quality ammo for around $14 a box.  What does a box of fmj M1 carbine go for?  And what does a box of M1 carbine soft-point go for?.  Lots lots more.
 
   The  boxes of 50 of the .22 mag ammo come in small plastic cases, that weigh less than one filled 15 round mag of .30 carbine.   You could easily carry 200 to 400 rounds of .22 mag without sweat.
 
   Availability?   I see lots and lots of it in every gunstore I ever go into.  Far more common and available than M1 carbine rounds.
 
   Now, I'm not trying to trash the M1 carbine.  It is a great rifle, with lots of applications, and adequate for self defense out to 200 yards.  But, in a disruption scenario, the ability to travel light, move fast, and carry lots of ammuntion would be a key.  Not everybody can hump 400 rounds of M1 carbine or other centerfire rounds.
 
  And, though I am not much of a fan at all of the .22 Mag in a revolver (simply because it is deafeningly loud!), I could see that it would be smart to have one on your belt, as a companion to the .22 Mag, to carry in a bad situation, for self-defense, not hunting.
 
  Moreover, though it would be illegal, I can almost hear a President in a martial law scenario ordering the National Guard to take every gune carried by folks, except for .22 rimfires and shotguns.  (My understanding it that even in Russia, during the darkest and most oppresive years of communism, folks were always allowed to own a .22 rifle and a side-by-side 12 gauge.)
 
  Just my thoughts.
 
Regards, Mannyrock
 

[mannyrock]

 
    P.S. - I note that Henry firearms and others are currently making high quality pump actions in .22 mag.  They carry 15 rounds.  East of the Mississippi at least, one of these rifles, coupled with a .22 mag revolver, would be hard to argue with.
 
   Effectiveness of the .22 mag?   Check out the Hornaday Vmax varmint rounds.  They give both penetration and explosive wound channel. They run around $15 a box.
 
  Regards,  Mannyrock

[Drilling Man]

    P.S. - I note that Henry firearms and others are currently making high quality pump actions in .22 mag.  They carry 15 rounds.  East of the Mississippi at least, one of these rifles, coupled with a .22 mag revolver, would be hard to argue with.
 
   Effectiveness of the .22 mag?   Check out the Hornaday Vmax varmint rounds.  They give both penetration and explosive wound channel. They run around $15 a box.
 
  Regards,  Mannyrock

  You better double check just how good the pump 22WMR Henrys are, mine was junk.  I think you will find the pump LR models are much better.
 
  You never hear of any complaints about the magnum lever guns though, including from me...
 
  DM

[Couger]

Too bad there isn't much discussion by those who might rely on the .22 mangle-um for personal defense (in handguns specifically).   
 
Nor any discussion about the .22WMR in a Contender HG or carbine ......
 
Its very apparent those that have multiple .22M's love their smallish powerhouses.  Interesting sentiments!
 
I was very sorry when Ruger discontinued their 'steel' version M10/22 magnum!  That rifle with some similar hi-cap 20 or 25rd Butler Creek-like Hotlips Steellips mags would've been SOMETHING!      Never wanted a 10/22M, but one of those carbines would have offered a lot of firepower in a small package. 

[handi243]

This one is a 22m LOVE my 22 mag!!!!!!

[keith44]

well since we are having a show-n-tell, this is my old friend, a Marlin model 25MN.  I've had it for about 20 years.  To get it shooting like I wanted to I bedded the action, and the chamber area of the barrel up to the stock screw, and floated the rest of the barrel.  Since then it's been just a load and shoot kinda gun, with an occasional cleaning and oiling.  The scope is a Bushnell Sportview 4x32 that is older than the gun.

[SHOOTALL]

Cougar the 1022 mag was heavy and seldom worked 100% that's why it went away I had one mine worked most of the time but not with every bullet It refused to cycle remington. A gun for survivle should cycle anything you might find . Better to run like a sewing machine than be a tack driver.

[pastorp]

Well now Shootall, that just depends on if you need supression fire or sniper capabilites, dosen't it... 

To me I'll take a accurate 22mag with a small mag anyday over one with a 25rd mag that hangs up on everything. JMO Fact is my first choice would be a Winchester 9422M with a 3x leupold scope. 

Regards,

[SHOOTALL]

Mine was with the 9 round factory mags it would not feed 100% . That said the only time I have heard of sniping with a 22 mag it was for Riot control in Isreal . The idea to take out a knee of those leading the roit. Mine would hit a rabbits head , the eye was iffy 

[Drilling Man]

  My 597M has run perfectly with anything and everything i've put in it.  But, in a 22mag. i'd take accuracy to a few jams anyday as like was said, it's about having something to "feed" me, not hold off the advanceing city.
 
  DM

[Couger]

Mine was with the 9 round factory mags it would not feed 100% . That said the only time I have heard of sniping with a 22 mag it was for RIOT CONTROL in Isreal??? The idea to take out a knee of those leading the roit. Mine would hit a rabbits head , the eye was iffy     

Ruger jamomatic?  I understand that sentiment since I never owned my own 10/22M sample, altho popular rumor when the 10/22M was cancelled mentioned [chronic] production problems and lack of enough demand.  YES, often with Ruger 'production' bugs and problems have often meant serious design "bugs" that were never resolved.  The Mini-30 in .308 is one such example.
 
Also YES the Israelis use standard .22LR's for riot control!  But the Soviets/"former" soviets have developed sniper and tactical .22LR combat rifles from match rifle designs!  This is fact actually.  And why not!!?? Am I trying to imply such weapons are robust frontline combat weapons?  HECK NO!  But if the rooskie wants a finesse-type precision sniper or designated-marksman type weapon, ..... well, aren't we only limited by our imaginations?

EDITED after this point!  (forgot this was about .22WMR's mostly) Those folks on this board who think the .22LR is the cat's meow for collecting small game and food, but won't have to face gangs or mobs out to steal and cause harm I think are NOT very bright and are badly fooling themselves!  Most of those gang or mob members will want your food!!!  And your .22 and other weapons!  They will be HUNGRY and DESPARATE AS HELL![/b]
 
And who is FOOLISH enough to think an "obaMster" will work?  That you can "talk" and adversary or attacker to death?  Or into "agreement?"[/b]  That you'll be able to "talk reasonably" with thugs and gang-bangers INTENT on killing you!  Maybe they'll cook and eat you after you're dead! (actually if this country fell to anarchy, limited cannibalism would NOT surprise me    )
 
More than bows and arrows, or a solid slingshot, or even the best airguns and pellet rifles, I AGREE the .22 rimfires will be the best hunting/food collecting firearms, but a serious person wanting to live better have suitable defensive weapons and skills/resolve too.     
 

[keith44]

calm down there kitty    don't want to burst anything there do ya.  You make a good point, but the idea of quiet food gathering with the rimfire is to use said rimfire to get back to your main battle weapon only if discovered

[Couger]

Unless you live in a really rural setting, who thinks they'll quietly hunt around the suburbs?  Assuming you're even "home" to worry about it?  Or made it to your retreat if the impossible happens?
 
This thread started started about .22WMR's, but isn't that round inherently/incredibly LOUD to begin with?  And then what would be the advantage to putting a can on a .22WMR when a can works best with a subsonic round under 1050-1070fps?  I think a .22M might be useful to someone who has one, but not when they're trying to be quiet.  Isn't the .22WMR's ONLY REAL ADVANTAGES with ammo faster than the .22LR?  That requires NOISE!
 
Too bad the .22WMR can't safefly or accurately also use CB or Short ammo.

[keith44]

I understand your passion about this subject, but I do live in a very rural area now.  When I lived in city limits there was enough back ground noise that I was able to shoot my WMR weekly without raising any concerns. 

[mcwoodduck]

I have 2- 22 mags rifles one very similar to your M25 a Model 882, I have 4 mags for it and it would make a great survial rifle, But I think it will differ depending on where you live and what you are going to hunt for.
At the farm in NC I think a 22 mag would be great.
There are multiple ammo options.
But if you look in your safe I think you would find a better rifle.
Now under a survival situation I think I would go through the gun safe and keep going untill the rifle ran out of ammo or broke and then move on to the next in the safe.

[SHOOTALL]

Mine was with the 9 round factory mags it would not feed 100% . That said the only time I have heard of sniping with a 22 mag it was for RIOT CONTROL in Isreal??? The idea to take out a knee of those leading the roit. Mine would hit a rabbits head , the eye was iffy     

Ruger jamomatic?  I understand that sentiment since I never owned my own 10/22M sample, altho popular rumor when the 10/22M was cancelled mentioned [chronic] production problems and lack of enough demand.  YES, often with Ruger 'production' bugs and problems have often meant serious design "bugs" that were never resolved.  The Mini-30 in .308 is one such example.
 
Also YES the Israelis use standard .22LR's for riot control!  But the Soviets/"former" soviets have developed sniper and tactical .22LR combat rifles from match rifle designs!  This is fact actually.  And why not!!?? Am I trying to imply such weapons are robust frontline combat weapons?  HECK NO!  But if the rooskie wants a finesse-type precision sniper or designated-marksman type weapon, ..... well, aren't we only limited by our imaginations?

EDITED after this point!  (forgot this was about .22WMR's mostly) Those folks on this board who think the .22LR is the cat's meow for collecting small game and food, but won't have to face gangs or mobs out to steal and cause harm I think are NOT very bright and are badly fooling themselves!  Most of those gang or mob members will want your food!!!  And your .22 and other weapons!  They will be HUNGRY and DESPARATE AS HELL!
 
And who is FOOLISH enough to think an "obaMster" will work?  That you can "talk" and adversary or attacker to death?  Or into "agreement?"  That you'll be able to "talk reasonably" with thugs and gang-bangers INTENT on killing you!  Maybe they'll cook and eat you after you're dead! (actually if this country fell to anarchy, limited cannibalism would NOT surprise me    )
 
More than bows and arrows, or a solid slingshot, or even the best airguns and pellet rifles, I AGREE the .22 rimfires will be the best hunting/food collecting firearms, but a serious person wanting to live better have suitable defensive weapons and skills/resolve too.     

Cougar , an Author name Sockort ( might be spelled wrong) put out a book about self defense Isreli style in it he mentioned the idea of using a 22 mag for roit control. Please check it out if you doubt it. Also some of the heavy 22 LR out of a rifle is very close to a 38spl. in power , not that I advocate either if better is aval.

[mcwoodduck]

If you look at the ballistic tables the 22 Mag out of a rifle is about equal to 9mm out of a pistol in foot pounds.
 
 

[Couger]

..... an author named Sockort ( might be spelled wrong) put out a book about self defense Isreli style in it he mentioned the idea of using a 22 mag for riot control. Please check it out if you doubt it. 

Well ...... good!    (I'll take your word for it)  There are pics on the Net showing Israeli soldiers using [suppressed] 10/22's (LR's) to deal with militants and riotors in the Gaza and West Bank settlements.  Captions said the soldiers aimed atheir legs.
 
There are also posted articles w/pics on Soviet .22LR-sniper rifles too, which did not imply the rooskie weapons were for wounding.
 

Also some of the heavy 22 LR out of a rifle is very close to a 38spl. in power , not that I advocate either if better is avalable. 

Your claim here is misleading unless you're interested in only being technically 'right.' **
 
CCI Velocitor's at 1435fps MV (published) generate 183fpe ME.  This with a full-length 40 grain rimfire bullet (CCI Stingers are often inaccurate with their 'short' 32 grain bullets, not offering the same length of bearing surface to stabilize like a Velocitor does). 
 
++Factory .38 Special wadcutters barely going faster than 700fps might generate @ 175fpe ME.  Reloaders of .38's know 700fps is barely a safe enough velocity to ensure a given load will be consistent enough to offer any accuracy, but also ensure a bullet will never get stuck in a bore! I would not offer this kind of advice to anyone except for only shooting paper targets!
 
Most sensible (defensive) .38Spl loadings offer muzzle energies at well over 200 foot-pounds, exceeding all but the highest .380ACP loadings.  And .38+P loadings are even more powerful, sometimes approaching [some] 9mm's.
 
This thread started about .22WMR's, which in a rifle offers energies in the same ranges as many .38Spl +P loadings.  I haven't seen data what a .22WMR might offer from a 4 or 6" HG barrel, which can't be as good. 

[keith44]

Today I dusted off an old friend and hunting companion and burned through a few dozen rounds.  At one time this was the most powerful rifle I could afford (both to purchase and to feed) These days it barely gets a mention, and I was curious why.


The rifle is a Marlin Model 25MN chambered in .22 Magnum.  7 shot clip came standard, very simple bolt action.  Anyone ever considered something like this for a survival rifle??  Why or Why not??

and the first post to go off topic was:

Mine was with the 9 round factory mags it would not feed 100% . That said the only time I have heard of sniping with a 22 mag it was for RIOT CONTROL in Isreal??? The idea to take out a knee of those leading the roit. Mine would hit a rabbits head , the eye was iffy     

Ruger jamomatic?  I understand that sentiment since I never owned my own 10/22M sample, altho popular rumor when the 10/22M was cancelled mentioned [chronic] production problems and lack of enough demand.  YES, often with Ruger 'production' bugs and problems have often meant serious design "bugs" that were never resolved.  The Mini-30 in .308 is one such example.
 
Also YES the Israelis use standard .22LR's for riot control!  But the Soviets/"former" soviets have developed sniper and tactical .22LR combat rifles from match rifle designs!  This is fact actually.  And why not!!?? Am I trying to imply such weapons are robust frontline combat weapons?  HECK NO!  But if the rooskie wants a finesse-type precision sniper or designated-marksman type weapon, ..... well, aren't we only limited by our imaginations?

EDITED after this point!  (forgot this was about .22WMR's mostly) Those folks on this board who think the .22LR is the cat's meow for collecting small game and food, but won't have to face gangs or mobs out to steal and cause harm I think are NOT very bright and are badly fooling themselves!  Most of those gang or mob members will want your food!!!  And your .22 and other weapons!  They will be HUNGRY and DESPARATE AS HELL!
 
And who is FOOLISH enough to think an "obaMster" will work?  That you can "talk" and adversary or attacker to death?  Or into "agreement?"  That you'll be able to "talk reasonably" with thugs and gang-bangers INTENT on killing you!  Maybe they'll cook and eat you after you're dead! (actually if this country fell to anarchy, limited cannibalism would NOT surprise me    )
 
More than bows and arrows, or a solid slingshot, or even the best airguns and pellet rifles, I AGREE the .22 rimfires will be the best hunting/food collecting firearms, but a serious person wanting to live better have suitable defensive weapons and skills/resolve too.     
 

and now you say:

..... an author named Sockort ( might be spelled wrong) put out a book about self defense Isreli style in it he mentioned the idea of using a 22 mag for riot control. Please check it out if you doubt it. 

Well ...... good!    (I'll take your word for it)  There are pics on the Net showing Israeli soldiers using [suppressed] 10/22's (LR's) to deal with militants and riotors in the Gaza and West Bank settlements.  Captions said the soldiers aimed atheir legs.
 
There are also posted articles w/pics on Soviet .22LR-sniper rifles too, which did not imply the rooskie weapons were for wounding.
 

Also some of the heavy 22 LR out of a rifle is very close to a 38spl. in power , not that I advocate either if better is avalable. 

Your claim here is misleading unless you're interested in only being technically 'right.' **
 
CCI Velocitor's at 1435fps MV (published) generate 183fpe ME.  This with a full-length 40 grain rimfire bullet (CCI Stingers are often inaccurate with their 'short' 32 grain bullets, not offering the same length of bearing surface to stabilize like a Velocitor does). 
 
++Factory .38 Special wadcutters barely going faster than 700fps might generate @ 175fpe ME.  Reloaders of .38's know 700fps is barely a safe enough velocity to ensure a given load will be consistent enough to offer any accuracy, but also ensure a bullet will never get stuck in a bore! I would not offer this kind of advice to anyone except for only shooting paper targets!
 
Most sensible (defensive) .38Spl loadings offer muzzle energies at well over 200 foot-pounds, exceeding all but the highest .380ACP loadings.  And .38+P loadings are even more powerful, sometimes approaching [some] 9mm's.
 
This thread started about .22WMR's, which in a rifle offers energies in the same ranges as many .38Spl +P loadings.  I haven't seen data what a .22WMR might offer from a 4 or 6" HG barrel, which can't be as good. 

So what is it?? You way is the only way??  Guess again, you might wish to study some fairly recent history.  Look to the rise and fall (in popularity) of the militia movement.  Very similar language and attitude as you display.  Careful how far you go, history is a good teacher to those who are able to see.