.22 Magnum calmly and quietly

[pastorp]

Don't understand why threads in this forum about guns always go into a combat thread or a bear protection thread. Mostly we just need something to pot small game to eat. And the 22mag is actually pretty good for that and small to medium varmit control.

Think what you want about Native lifestyle, but on the Rez where I live the 22mag is commonaly used for deer & seals as well. 

Regards,

[SHOOTALL]

..... an author named Sockort ( might be spelled wrong) put out a book about self defense Isreli style in it he mentioned the idea of using a 22 mag for riot control. Please check it out if you doubt it. 

Well ...... good!    (I'll take your word for it)  There are pics on the Net showing Israeli soldiers using [suppressed] 10/22's (LR's) to deal with militants and riotors in the Gaza and West Bank settlements.  Captions said the soldiers aimed atheir legs.
 
There are also posted articles w/pics on Soviet .22LR-sniper rifles too, which did not imply the rooskie weapons were for wounding.
 

Also some of the heavy 22 LR out of a rifle is very close to a 38spl. in power , not that I advocate either if better is avalable. 

Your claim here is misleading unless you're interested in only being technically 'right.' **
 
CCI Velocitor's at 1435fps MV (published) generate 183fpe ME.  This with a full-length 40 grain rimfire bullet (CCI Stingers are often inaccurate with their 'short' 32 grain bullets, not offering the same length of bearing surface to stabilize like a Velocitor does). 
 
++Factory .38 Special wadcutters barely going faster than 700fps might generate @ 175fpe ME.  Reloaders of .38's know 700fps is barely a safe enough velocity to ensure a given load will be consistent enough to offer any accuracy, but also ensure a bullet will never get stuck in a bore! I would not offer this kind of advice to anyone except for only shooting paper targets!
 
Most sensible (defensive) .38Spl loadings offer muzzle energies at well over 200 foot-pounds, exceeding all but the highest .380ACP loadings.  And .38+P loadings are even more powerful, sometimes approaching [some] 9mm's.
 
This thread started about .22WMR's, which in a rifle offers energies in the same ranges as many .38Spl +P loadings.  I haven't seen data what a .22WMR might offer from a 4 or 6" HG barrel, which can't be as good. 

 
Did you give consideration to the fact that simi auto 22 LR rifles loaded with say small game bullets which or heavy for cal and quite speedy or such hold 10 to 50 rounds ? 38's ( or 357 revolvers ) hold up to 8 on average ( And most 5 or 6 ) . I don't doubt if a well placed shot was taken either gun would work. If many shots were needed the 22 rifle wins hands down. As distance grows the rifle wins.
There are two stories on the net that put this in perspective. One is of a small girl way up north that killed one of the largest grizzley bears ever taken with a 22 rifle. The other is of most likely the largest bear ever taken , it killed a hiker that tried to defend himself with a 38 spl. Both cases were self defense Nuff said !
 
As for these topics going fight or bear attack , they are worst case . If your choice will meet worst case it should shine in other uses.

[cwlongshot]

All this 22Mag talk of late really gets my juices flowing.... 
I bought a Marlin 782 last month for close coyotes and I have liked the model for a long time

I have been on the fence with the Kel-Tec PMR-30 for over a year..

I all but sealed a deal on three PMR-30's! Pop, my buddie and myself.

AND I just bought another Handi barrel and action in 22MAG...

In the past, I have had two semi 22Mags  postold and sold them. I have had two Marlin 22 Mag bolts.... and sold them ... AND I sold off my 22Mag H&R when I bought a 17 HMR a couple years ago.... SO I guess I have come full circle. I don't think I will make the mistake of parting with them again so easily....

Good post and good reading!!

CW

[keith44]

I never could bring myself to like the 17 HMR.  The smaller lr based 17 intrigued me some, but since it is not very popular I won't be grabbing one of those either.  I guess the big turn off for me was the seemingly too light bullet both in weight and construction.

[SHOOTALL]

I never could bring myself to like the 17 HMR.  The smaller lr based 17 intrigued me some, but since it is not very popular I won't be grabbing one of those either.  I guess the big turn off for me was the seemingly too light bullet both in weight and construction.

 
try a 17 HMR  on a crow at 150 yards and watch it explode you might change your mind.

[keith44]

I never could bring myself to like the 17 HMR.  The smaller lr based 17 intrigued me some, but since it is not very popular I won't be grabbing one of those either.  I guess the big turn off for me was the seemingly too light bullet both in weight and construction.

 
try a 17 HMR  on a crow at 150 yards and watch it explode you might change your mind.

 


    that would be fun

[SHOOTALL]

My son has one its a blast as long as the wind is light .

[spooked]

Today I dusted off an old friend and hunting companion and burned through a few dozen rounds.  At one time this was the most powerful rifle I could afford (both to purchase and to feed) These days it barely gets a mention, and I was curious why.


The rifle is a Marlin Model 25MN chambered in .22 Magnum.  7 shot clip came standard, very simple bolt action.  Anyone ever considered something like this for a survival rifle??  Why or Why not??

Yes! have had same for 20 years!

[Couger]

There are two stories on the net that put this in perspective. One is of a small girl way up north that killed one of the largest grizzley bears ever taken with a 22 rifle. The other is of most likely the largest bear ever taken , it killed a hiker that tried to defend himself with a 38 spl. Both cases were self defense Nuff said !

Perspective?  Gonna call 'bullshot!' unless you can post a link to both stories!     Actually I think that's fair since I know of a story about a 700# boar grizzly that died 3-4 years ago when a logging truck hit it.  The same set of pics have been "used" by other perverts (of fact and truth) or jerks to espouse other "internet stories" that never happened.
 
Do you have the links? 
 
But if you can list a link to your claims shootall, i'm prepared to believe you (BTW, I AM aware of a grizzly killed in alaska 1 1/2yrs ago with a .45ACP, and another one in Cody, WY that was killed by a boy with a .410 shotgun! When it was raiding the family chicken coup).
 
.22WMR's - what's the beef?  First comment I made about the .22mag is I think they work fine and have their place!  The .22WMR will never be as quiet as a LongRifle, but the .22M will certainly be quieter than any centerfire .22's.  All "22's" offer something within their "envelopes!"  (their useful ranges generated by whatever muzzle veocitiy.  I include the .220Swift, .225-250, .223, .222Rem, .221Fireball ...... all the way down to the .22Hornet in that comment.  granted I'm talking about .222 rimfires or .224 calibers CF's as well).
 
I've known a [couple] shooters who shot LongRifles at ridiculously long ranges (300yds), but the .22M is solid performer to 120yds (most days) if not 150+yds(on really calm days).
 
The .22 Hornet (and K-Hornet) shows a lot of promise, as well as the .218 Bee to reloaders.  I was going to possibly get a Hornet (in leu of a WMR), but that brass is "delicate!"  Easy to overwork and sometimes 1 or 2 loadings is all a reloader might get.  Which is why I'm experiementing with the Bee to create handloads (maybe as "light" as the LongRifle or WMR).  I'm still experimenting.     (the Bee and Hornets are great rounds for single shot guns too, because they have rimmed cases)
 
Too bad no one offers a good selection of 45 or 50 grain .22WMF loads!  Trajectory might not be very flat with such hypothetical loads, but I'd love to see what such a load could do and the kinetic energies offered at longer distances (100+yds). 
 
Also like the LongRifle 60 grain SSS load Aguila makes, there was a rumor that Aquila was "supposed to" make a 90 grain SSS sniper subsonic loading for the .22WMR!  If such a load shot similar to the 60grn LR, ......well i was sorry it was only a rumor!
 
Digressing a little,  Aguila is a Mexican ammo company for those not familiar with them, making the Colibri and Super Colibri rounds are probably their best known ammo.  But Agila also makes a complete line of LR rimfire ammo (I'm not sure about .22WMR ammo), along with their Mini-12ga shells and some very innovative pistol ammo.  The Mini-12ga shells in 7 1/2's  perform similarly to some .410's.  Have never tried their slugs or 00Buck.
 
There used to be a .17 Aguila (RF) round similar to but not identical to the .17M2.  Haven't seen the .17 Aguila recently, although .17M2 might be hanging on for .17 fans or squirrel hunters. 
 
We don't hunt [tree] squirrels in the west (nor have I ever met or heard of anyone who killed and ate a jackrabbit), but reports I've read say the .17HMR blows up squirrels unless shot in the head!  The .17HMR is supposed to be great for "blowing up" gophers and ground squirrels, and crows (oops!) as you someone else pointed out.
 
Post your bear links! 
 
   

[BUGEYE]

the .22 mag is one of the handiest cartridges ever invented.  however, I have my savage mark II .22lr with 4-12x40 scope set up for harvesting songbirds.

[keith44]

the .22 mag is one of the handiest cartridges ever invented.  however, I have my savage mark II .22lr with 4-12x40 scope set up for harvesting songbirds.

I've thought about setting up a Ruger MKII or III similarly


what ammo did ya settle on?

[cwlongshot]

Cougar,

I do not know of the Hiker and the 38 spl. But I'm here to tell you the Grizzly stork is gospel truth.

It was so long ago I doubt there is much is anything on the web sans such writings as what you here here. It was a small Indian girl "Bella" and her younger siblings out picking berries when the bear was seen aproaching. The story goes she gathered them up and his in a bush hoping the bear word pass them by. But it got too close for her comfort she took the SINGLE SHOT 22 RF she had and shot the bear in the side of the head at fur singing distance. Then preceded to shoot it with all remaining bullets. It's speculated the first shot did it in.
This was likely a calm bear hit in the "sweet spot" for the instant kill. That bear stood as the record bear killed for many years.

I read the story 30+ years ago in the back of a Outdoor life magazine. Then again years later in a book on bear attacks. That happened in 1953... Here is a picture!!





I have read dozens of police reports on shootings involving the lowly 22RF. What it lacks in size it makes up for in preformance. 
I remember one story where some gang bangers where tired of this bum/whino Lying on the street. they decided they would shoot him in the ass for fun... Well they did, the bullet ricocheted off his pelvis traveling upwards, doing a pin ball imitation on his inturnal organs. He dropped dead on the spot.

Another story involved two drunken college students. During an argument the decided to settle it and have a duel. One kid emerging with a 22RF the other a 1911 45. Shots rang out, both idiots where hit. The guy with the 22 got up, changed and drove himself to the hospital. He had a couple wounds one serious IIRC. The kid with the 45 was dead in the hall... Better shot dumb luck quite possible. But do not under estimate the lowly 22RF.

In my book the singular reason it will not make a primary defensive weapon for me is that it's a RF and prone to missfiring.

CW

[BUGEYE]

the .22 mag is one of the handiest cartridges ever invented.  however, I have my savage mark II .22lr with 4-12x40 scope set up for harvesting songbirds.

I've thought about setting up a Ruger MKII or III similarly


what ammo did ya settle on?

I have everything I own using federal auto match. the savage will keep them between 3/8s and 1/2.  in case of SHTF, I figure most people will ignore birds. not me.....
If you can hit songbirds with a pistol, you are way better than me. my Smith 22A is for finishing off something in my snares if needed.
my main carry rifle is a cricket with peep sight.
I have around 10,000 rounds of other brands but those will be handed out to folks who may be short on ammo.

edited to add, since this is about .22 magnums, I keep my old bounty hunter loaded with shot cartridges for snakes.  the magnum should be good at 10 or 15 feet.

[mannyrock]

 
   Cougar old buddy.  I really enjoy your posts and you make a lot of good points.  But what's with all of the bold print, underlining, and blue and red colors?   It detracts from the substance of your reply.  Your words are clear enough.  The extra stuff makes them neither more nor less true, nor more or less convincing. :-)
 
   Best, Mannyrock

[Drilling Man]

  Some of the dumpest things you will read on the net is, just because someone does something once or even twice with some lowely cartridge, (in this case a 22RF) it then somehow elevates it to some kind super cartridge??  Really?
 
  I've hunted/killed enough bears, both brn and blk to know that i don't want to meet up with one with only a 22RF on me!
 
  DM

[Couger]

CWLongshot, thanks for the post and pic.  Last documented grizzly in my home state of Utah was known as ol'Ephraim or similar.  Story I read about its demise was someone who met up with the bear in Logan Canyon (somewheres!  its a looong canyon that connects Logan with Bear Lake).  That shooter only had a .25-35WCF levergun and shot ol'Ephraim 30X-40X.  More recently, the black bear population in Utah is slowly growing (esp in the Fish Lake and Manti-La-Sal Nat'l forests.  Knew a couple people who scored rare permits).  There's also been in the last 15-20 years, at least 2 or 3 maulings with at least one (or 2?) fatality when a 7-8yo boy was dragged through a window in his granddad's camper!
 

Some of the dumpest things you will read on the net is, just because someone does something once or even twice with some lowely cartridge, (in this case a 22RF) it then somehow elevates it to some kind super cartridge??  Really?
 
I've hunted/killed enough bears, both brn and blk to know that I don't want to meet up with one with only a 22RF on me!    DM

Good for you DM     (some people like what they know - only!)  I was intriqued by a couple Alaskan duck hunters who defended themselves last year when a brownine,  charged into and through their blind.  Killed the brownie after it barely missed them, shot 5-6X with shotguns.  (heckuva adventure that early in the AM  )

[SHOOTALL]

Cougar , Sorry was out shooting yesterday , I see in ansewer to your calling my post BS that the little girl story was posted. As for the hiker with a 38 , google giant bear killed in Alaska if you want to see the story. I had not read it for a couple years or so. It seems there are two versions . Enjoy the reading.

[Couger]

It seems there are two versions.

That's usually the case. 

[SHOOTALL]

they were both good enough to point out the 38 wasn't a good choice 

[blind ear]

I killed a Purple Grackle when it flew over me. Had to be the most unlucky bird that I ever shot at, perhaps the unluckiest bird to ever have lived.    . ear

[mcwoodduck]

CW Longshot,
On the 2nd sunday of every month I go to a NO aliby falling plate match where we shoot 22 LR out of either a handgun or a rifle.
Every now and then you get a mis fire when the pin hits and you get a click.
We were thinking if we were to design a new rimfire gun we would make a forked firing pin as you spin that same dud round 90 to 180 degrees in the chamber and it goes bang.  The priming material just missed that small section and having a pin hit it in two places would decrease the likelyhood of a misfire for the gun.

[SHOOTALL]

Someone already does that but for the life of me I can't remember who.

[JSTRAW]

The Savage model 19 NRA has dual firing pins. One example.

[cwlongshot]

CW Longshot,
On the 2nd sunday of every month I go to a NO aliby falling plate match where we shoot 22 LR out of either a handgun or a rifle.
Every now and then you get a mis fire when the pin hits and you get a click.
We were thinking if we were to design a new rimfire gun we would make a forked firing pin as you spin that same dud round 90 to 180 degrees in the chamber and it goes bang.  The priming material just missed that small section and having a pin hit it in two places would decrease the likely hood of a misfire for the gun.

Excellent idea!!

 Freedom arms does this in the excellent quality SAA 22LR.. Its firing pin has two protrusions that strike the rim at opposing sides. Doing pretty close to what your suggesting!

CW

[schoolmaster]

Drilling Man it seems that you have some exceptionally accurate .22 mag rifles. I still feel that the .22 long rifle cartridge is more inherently accurate than the .22 mag on the average. Now I have owned and shot my fair share of .22 mag rifles over the more than 40 years that I have been shooting them. The most accurate .22 mag I ever owned was an Anschutz 164. It would put 5 shots on a dime at 50 yards consistantly which is what I expect a good squirrel rifle to do. I traded it for a 164 Anchutz in .22 LR that would do half that. I have owned 2 winchester lever actions, 2 marlins, a ruger, a win 597, a stevens single shot, a Brno 611, and a savage 93, the savage does pass the dime test the rest did not. We are blessed with a lot more different 22 mag rounds now then when I started out so it is easier to find a "Dime sized" .22 mag combo. Problem guns? I wouldn't call them that. The accuracy of all the .22 mags I have owned is plenty good enough for the varmints and pests I use them for and of course I like the extra punch.