Author Topic: Cute little dimples leave me frustrated (Read 1483 times)

wyb · « **on:** February 27, 2012, 07:15:24 AM »

I finally got my new 7.62x39 out to the range yesterday, after spending too long getting it scoped. Had to wear snowshoes to walk the quarter mile to my range. Strong winds and blowing snow. Had two boxes of Tulammo with me. Got all set up, snow down deck, ears freezing. Lined up the cross hairs and click. Cute little dimple in primer. No ignition. Tried another round. Same thing. Tried the other box. Same thing. Feeling hot, now, despite cold and wind. Packed up gear and headed home. I measured the firing pin protusion at .034". If I pushed on the transfer bar manually, I could get .057", with a shim between the hammer and TB I could get .053". What do you Handi-men think is my best option? Make a permanent shim, make a longer firing pin, remove material from the top of the hammer, save the Russian ammo for the Russian guns, or something else. How much protrusion is too much? If I make modifications to fire my cheap imported ammo, will that give me problems if I get Boxer primed ammo later?

Any advice will be appreciated.

Thank you.

Matt

reloaderman · « **Reply #1 on:** February 27, 2012, 07:29:26 AM »

How cold was it ??
Too much oil in it?
Gunked up?
I would look at this first.
I do find those cute little dimpled rounds at our range, but no telling what gun tried to fire them.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #2 on:** February 27, 2012, 07:52:38 AM »

Good afternoon,

WELCOME Matt and Reloader man!!

Matt,
At .034 your protrusion is too little for my tastes. I like .040+. .050 on the outside. Too much more and you will get pierced primers.

Dissassemble and Remove the hammer then grind off the top portion where it contacts the frame to increas pin protrusion.

Also how is the cases in the chamber? Are the good and flush or below flush when fully seated?

CW

wyb · « **Reply #3 on:** February 27, 2012, 08:03:59 AM »

The receiver is clean, lock-up is good. Barrel is new and still unfired, darn it. Cases seat a little below flush, I'd have to check the depth when I get home. The temperature was around 20F.

Thanks for your interest in my dimples.

Matt

bikerbeans · « **Reply #4 on:** February 27, 2012, 08:10:16 AM »

wyb,

Hi & Welcome.

IF you have a chamber that is a tad too deep reloading your own ammo can take care of that problem. FWIW, I believe the main reason H&R discontinued production of the 7.62x39MM was because of FTFs with the imported ammo. On the bright side there are many folks in this forum who love how the "39" performs with a proper handload. There is a one fellow here who lives in da swamp who might be along with some advice.

BB

cwlongshot · « **Reply #5 on:** February 27, 2012, 08:14:35 AM »

Yea below flush is an issue. Its called excessive head space and amplifies your already short pin protrusion, Some have shimmed the extractor ( see FAQ's) others have tried more drastic measures like dimpling the rim recess....

Try grinding the hammer and see what you get. As I said .034 is less than the accepted .040...

Good luck,
CW

gendoc · « **Reply #6 on:** February 27, 2012, 08:41:13 AM »

bb, im gunna wait an see how many more idea's are said.........;-)

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #7 on:** February 27, 2012, 08:49:37 AM »

did you try to fire any a second time ?

trotterlg · « **Reply #8 on:** February 27, 2012, 09:24:23 AM »

Think I would grind a little off the hammer stop, hammers are cheap and it is an easy fix. Larry

quickdtoo · « **Reply #9 on:** February 27, 2012, 09:31:51 AM »

Quote from: wyb on February 27, 2012, 07:15:24 AM

I finally got my new 7.62x39 out to the range yesterday, after spending too long getting it scoped. Had to wear snowshoes to walk the quarter mile to my range. Strong winds and blowing snow. Had two boxes of Tulammo with me. Got all set up, snow down deck, ears freezing. Lined up the cross hairs and click. Cute little dimple in primer. No ignition. Tried another round. Same thing. Tried the other box. Same thing. Feeling hot, now, despite cold and wind. Packed up gear and headed home. I measured the firing pin protusion at .034". If I pushed on the transfer bar manually, I could get .057", with a shim between the hammer and TB I could get .053". What do you Handi-men think is my best option? Make a permanent shim, make a longer firing pin, remove material from the top of the hammer, save the Russian ammo for the Russian guns, or something else. How much protrusion is too much? If I make modifications to fire my cheap imported ammo, will that give me problems if I get Boxer primed ammo later?

Any advice will be appreciated.

Thank you.

Matt

First, make sure to read the Handi Basics sticky, not pulling the trigger fully to the rear can result in light pin strikes. There are several links in the FAQs on FTFs(failure to fire) and misfires, if it was mine, short or returning it to H&R for repair which is always an option, replace the hammer spring with a Wolff extra power single coil, do the firing pin improvement in the FAQs, and/or remove a little from the face of the hammer to increase pin travel, I've gone as high as .063" with no problems on my 260 Rem Handi with Federal 210 primers, usually .~050" is sufficient tho, but with the excess headspace, if you don't plan on handloading for it, a bit more shouldn't hurt, just remember to make slight changes, it's easier to take a little more off than adding metal or buying a new hammer.

Tim

gendoc · « **Reply #10 on:** February 27, 2012, 12:47:04 PM »

i'll tellya what WYB, you try all that has been mentioned.....
and if you still hava problem... pm me

i ain't gunna post any fixes or test results anymore because all tha noitalls here.

tim has been the most percise as he should be!!!!!.
take note of the remark he made about "handloading for it"...very true
ask yourself... why will it shoot handloads and not milsurp stuff

but i don't believe any of tha big boys that have replied even hava "commie handi" and if they do... i really don't care. well, this young feller has 4 "39's"

and none shoot steel case, corrosive, berdan primed, junk... now, you can pull some them bullets and they make fine match grade bullets. depends on manufacturer.
i jus hate to see you grasp at air when you've been mostly told to "bark uptha wrong tree"
petemi's "39" shoots'um fine....
goes ta show ya....again yall !!!! NO 2 GUNS ARE THA SAME !!
so what works well for some, might be BS for others.

you do what you think is right.
i'm done now.................

quickdtoo · « **Reply #11 on:** February 27, 2012, 01:22:35 PM »

Seems to me I recollect someone making a titanium firing pin to resolve the milsurp misfire problem with the 39.

Tim

cwlongshot · « **Reply #12 on:** February 27, 2012, 01:25:45 PM »

Quote from: gendoc on February 27, 2012, 12:47:04 PM

i'll tellya what WYB, you try all that has been mentioned.....
and if you still hava problem... pm me
i ain't gunna post any fixes or test results anymore because all tha noitalls here.

tim has been the most percise as he should be!!!!!.
take note of the remark he made about "handloading for it"...very true
ask yourself... why will it shoot handloads and not milsurp stuff

but i don't believe any of tha big boys that have replied even hava "commie handi" and if they do... i really don't care. well, this young feller has 4 "39's"
and none shoot steel case, corrosive, berdan primed, junk... now, you can pull some them bullets and they make fine match grade bullets. depends on manufacturer.
i jus hate to see you grasp at air when you've been mostly told to "bark uptha wrong tree"
petemi's "39" shoots'um fine....
goes ta show ya....again yall !!!! NO 2 GUNS ARE THA SAME !!
so what works well for some, might be BS for others.

you do what you think is right.
i'm done now.................

Throwin' down a glove huh Doc...

OK...

I stand by my assessment of a longer FP stroke correcting the problem. Based on the explination in the first post.

The gun is not able to shoot Military surplus ammo. No mention of handloading or trying commercial ammo. Just the gun not shooting surplus stuff.

What we know: The FP has a possible stroke of .057, yet is currently .034.

In the second post by WYB, we find out that the ammo sits a bit below flush in the chamber. So we know that is a head space problem. BUT if its the ammo or the chamber is as yet a mystery.

WYB,
Please post up what you find and what you do. My interest is perked... I am very interested to see what is found... Assessing these issues on another persons discriptions is not so easy.

CW

gendoc · « **Reply #13 on:** February 27, 2012, 01:31:41 PM »

no glove thrown.....its jus well known that the milsurp ammo primers are very hard.
and rim thickness varies, even tho its rimless
if you look in my signature line.... look closely at my listing on my 7.63x39...
do you see tha TFP....it means = titanium firing pin.

wyb · « **Reply #14 on:** February 27, 2012, 01:44:20 PM »

Well, I've checked the depth of the shells in the chamber, and measured .013". I have one Winchester round, so I gave that a try: .013". The depth of the primer in the case was within .002 between the red and the red white and blue. Admittedly, my data pool was very small.

I haven't started reloading yet. I feel a tickle in the back of my throat, so I think it's only a matter of time before I break out in a bad rash of purchases from that bug, too.

GD, will none of your 39's shoot "steel case, corrosive, berdan primed, junk" because it won't work, or because you won't feed your kids junk food?

I've made my way through the sticky, but I will confess that sometimes I go a little crosseyed trying to take everything in, before it becomes relevant. I checked for firing pin, and ftf, looked at the perkloafm link, and got some ideas. Without knowing how much is too much, and what treatments will solve other problems, I figured I would run my scenario by the experienced, the experts, and the noitalls. I just hope I can tell the difference

wyb · « **Reply #15 on:** February 27, 2012, 01:45:44 PM »

Do current production Berdans have the same problems as the surplus stuff?

Matt

gendoc · « **Reply #16 on:** February 27, 2012, 02:04:47 PM »

Quote from: wyb on February 27, 2012, 01:44:20 PM

GD, will none of your 39's shoot "steel case, corrosive, berdan primed, junk" because it won't work, or because you won't feed your kids junk food?

right out tha box, 1 did..... 2 others were hit and miss.
my most accurate handi and custom match grade rifle, the one with tha
TFP and other things

would not even think about ignition.

petemi's 39 will shoot anything its fed !!!!!!

i just went and grab'd a handfull of milsurp 39's for my russian and romainian sks's
there rim thickness varies from .056 to .052...

unfired empty case length varies from 1.515 to 1.519...

this stuff is mass produced in much greater volume and speed than U.S.
manufacturers could imagine. itsa QC thing

good luck, and great adventures in handloading..........

petemi · « **Reply #17 on:** February 27, 2012, 02:38:10 PM »

petemi's 39 will shoot anything its fed !!!!!!

It's true. I nusta got one that was made on Wednesday. I've got brass, bullets, primers, etc. for it and still haven't reloaded cause I'm still shooting up brass and steel cased imports. I've also shot a couple of U.S. brands and have yet to have a FTF with anything. My .32-20 shares a couple of different bullets with the '39 and when loaded with a PSP looks like a 7.62-39 short

When you get her shooting, I think the accuracy will pleasantly surprise you.

Good luck,

Pete

tacklebury · « **Reply #18 on:** February 27, 2012, 03:23:10 PM »

my .223 doesn't care what primer you put in front of it either. It'll eat em all!

OldSchoolRanger · « **Reply #19 on:** February 27, 2012, 04:06:05 PM »

If it were mine, and since it's brand new. I would send a PM to Brian56 or call H&R and ask them for a postage paid factory return label, and send it back to H&R, to have them fix it.

I understand that some guys want to tinker with reloads to make the gun shoot, I also work with reloads to make the gun shoot better. The operating word is better. Sorry guys, but my attitude is that I want my rifles to fire no matter what I feed it. Even junk Ruskie stuff.

ratdog · « **Reply #20 on:** February 27, 2012, 04:23:03 PM »

have a 8mm mauser that was doing the same thing would fire on second try some times even pierced primer. changed to different old milsurp ammo fixed problem. could be your ammo is sized with shoulder pushed to far back.

Ol BW · « **Reply #21 on:** February 27, 2012, 04:55:28 PM »

Well I got a "39" handi, but I have not even tried milsurp in it. You need to try some different ammo before you jump to conclusions. I went to a firing range at a training facility and it was littered with steel cased dud ammo of ALL calibers.

But don't feel bad, I had the same problem with a CZ 527 '39 and little dimples. I never had a problem with domestic ammo. I did end up putting a new spring from the factory in the CZ.

All that said, I am more inclined to say that it's the fault of the ammo.

trotterlg · « **Reply #22 on:** February 27, 2012, 07:23:33 PM »

.034 fireing pin protrusion is not enough on any rifle, and for sure not enough when there is .013 Headspace. If you can grind a little off the hammer and get near the .053 it will probably be happy, it would be better if it were .060. The fireing pin does not have enough mass to fire the primer on it's inertia alone, it needs the mass of the hammer behind it to set off the primer. This is a simple problem to fix, just make the hammer push the fireing pin in to it's limit at .053 or .052 and things will be good. I think the Russian rifles that normally shoot that ammo are running about .070 on the pins. Larry

Duckdog · « **Reply #23 on:** February 28, 2012, 04:09:58 PM »

I have a Rossi that does the same thing as yours. Lapua brass will fire every time, while the others is hit and miss. What I am probably going to try is firing any FTF reloads in one of my SKS,s and see if they either work in the Rossi, or if I can just bump the shoulder back a bit to see if it helps the headspace issues we're all seeing.

I might have to think about increasing firing pin protrusion.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #24 on:** February 28, 2012, 04:33:34 PM »

Quote from: Duckdog on February 28, 2012, 04:09:58 PM

I have a Rossi that does the same thing as yours. Lapua brass will fire every time, while the others is hit and miss. What I am probably going to try is firing any FTF reloads in one of my SKS,s and see if they either work in the Rossi, or if I can just bump the shoulder back a bit to see if it helps the headspace issues we're all seeing.

I might have to think about increasing firing pin protrusion.

Just to clarify.. Pin protrusion is not the blanket fix.. I feel it is for this firearm WYB ownes. But most times you will find mil surp primers are very hard and simply a stiffer main spring is the best bet for relyable ignition in any firearm shooting mil surp ammo..

Also as a rule H&R's can all use the Wolff spring and I put them in all my guns because of that. But WYB posted the pin protrusion as fired and again total possible correctly. Pointing me to the insufficient pin protrusion conclusion I made.

As to your comment about moving the shoulder "back" will only exacerbate the head space problem. In effect what you would need to do is move the shoulder forward.
(ONLY ATTEMPT THIS IF YOU KNOW FULL WELL WHAT YOUR DOING AND ALL POSSIBLE EFFECTS)
Loading a long bullet, seated long so as to enter and touch the rifling. Sufficiently pressing the case head against the breech face so when firing the brass stays fully against the breech and allows the brass to fill the chamber. THEN you will have a properly headspaced case for that chamber. Now when you re-load you need to set up the dies properly so as not to move the shoulder back.. Some cartridges require this when making cases. I have done thins many times in my 7TC/U and my 357 Herrett for my contender.

Your Rossi's design is foreign to me, I am sure its similar to the Handi but cannot say with all certainty it will work for it as it should for the H&R...

CW

jpshaw · « **Reply #25 on:** February 29, 2012, 01:27:29 AM »

Had a case of FTF with my .30-30 once. Found it to be rounds too long. The hammer was actually forcing the round into the rifling a tad cushioning the blow. Some would fire on the second strike and some would not. Seating the bullet deaper fixed the problem. Now gonna ream that throat till I can seat the bullet out where I want it.

With factory rounds that should not have been a problem with your 7.62 x 39 though.

Spanky · « **Reply #26 on:** February 29, 2012, 03:39:39 AM »

Do yourself a favor and PM Gendoc. Ask him for his phone number, give him a call and talk to him. John has the equipment and facilities to test what works and what doesn't. He is a wealth of knowledge and will definitely steer you in the right direction when it comes to your "39".

I'm not trying to discount any of the tips from others on this thread... you've been given alot of good advice but when it comes to the "39" John is the man to talk to.

Spanky

bikerbeans · « **Reply #27 on:** February 29, 2012, 06:08:46 AM »

Spanky +1 on gendoc, but his expertise ain't limited to the "39".

BB

wyb · « **Reply #28 on:** February 29, 2012, 02:58:55 PM »

Thanks for all the input. The barrel is new, but the receiver is not. I bought that second hand as a 30-06 Ultra. I locked up my 243 on the same receiver, yesterday, and it shot fine. I have successfully fired the Tulammo in my chinese sks. I won't be able to get to tinkering for a little while, but I'll keep you posted.

Just to throw a little more on the pile, what other posssible solutions would I have, if I reloaded? or should I say; when I start reloading?

Matt

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #29 on:** March 01, 2012, 01:27:19 AM »

seat the primers . The reason I ask if the runds would fire with a second hit is I have experinced Russian ammo that had primers that were not seated proper and took 2 hits to fire them. The ammo was not military grade. The gun was a mini 30. The store that sold it told you when buying it that there was a problem. It was CHEAP AMMO for plinking .
First hit seats the primer second fires it .