Author Topic: Pickups: Gas or diesel? (Read 3302 times)

Conan The Librarian · « **on:** February 28, 2012, 07:30:35 AM »

If you've seen some of my other recent posts, you can tell I'm wrestling with future decisions about a tow vehicle. For a pickup that will be used to tow, is it worth the extra price of a diesel? Or are there too many extra hassles with that so that gas is a better choice? Thanks!

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #1 on:** February 28, 2012, 08:23:54 AM »

From what I have read, diesel gets a little better mileage. Engine should last longer. Don't know if it is worth the extra cost.

blind ear · « **Reply #2 on:** February 28, 2012, 08:30:18 AM »

Over the road trucks are diesel.

I used a diesel as a daily feed truck pulling a couple of thousand pound trailer. Handeled it well plus got excellent fuel mileage even though it was a 4X4. Be carefull about 4x4 and get familiar with the particulars of each model. Some setups do much better than others. Turbocharged doesn't always mean more power or better fuel mileage.

If you plan to keep it forever (the motor will outlast the truck) it is well worth the extra cost.

ear

Old Fart · « **Reply #3 on:** February 28, 2012, 08:32:05 AM »

We went with a diesel. I'm glad we did. We pulled a large 5th wheel w/2 slides thru the mountains and barely felt it back there. My normal mileage was around 22-23 mpg, when we took the trip thru the mountains it dropped down to around 19 average. One thing I have noticed about the diesel is they vary some. My buddies ford sucked in the mountains as well on the flat land. Mine had the turbo, his didn't. You can open a whole other can of worms in this disacussion when we start argueing which brand is best. I did my homework when I bought mine in 2005. My brother in-law is a top line certified Ford mechanic. At that time he told me to stay away from the Ford, so I did. I talked to the diesel instructors here and they encouraged me to go with the Cummins, so I did.

Check the guys in the truck forum here http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/board,56.0.html & some of the truck forums.

Brett · « **Reply #4 on:** February 28, 2012, 08:44:33 AM »

Depends on how much weight and how often you intend to tow.

The negatives:
A diesel's initial cost is higher than that of a gas truck, tune ups are more expensive and diesel fuel cost a lot more at the pump. Diesel is not available at every street corner gas station.

The positives:
Diesel engines generally live longer than gasoline engines, but will the rest of the truck fall apart or will you get tired of it before the engine has expired? They generally get a little better fuel millage per gallon but the gap is closing in newer vehicles and as stated above diesel fuel costs more than gasoline so you would have to see an appreciable gain to offset the deference at the pump. Power (torque)... this is where the diesel shines.

If you are towing one heck of a large boat across country, frequently the diesel is winner hands down. If you are pulling an average bass boat only on weekends, three months out of the year, and keeping relatively close to home I would think gasoline is a better option.

OLDHandgunner · « **Reply #5 on:** February 28, 2012, 09:11:55 AM »

If your going to be towing. Diesel is a definite choice. A little more money up front but well worth it.

My Diesel #1: Bought new a 2000 Dodge with a Cummings. 3/4 ton HD. Use it for plowing and towing my equipment trailers. It's a real work horse.

My Diesel #2: Last year I bought my son's 2005 GMC 3/4 Ton HD with a Allison diesel & Duramax tranny. This trucks plows, tows my equipment trailers and our 5th wheel camper. Nice riding truck.

My son who had the 2005 GMC traded for a 2011 Dodge Cummings. He trades every 4-5 yrs so I can see another diesel coming down the road. The only complaint that he had with the new Dodge was the milelage wasn't as good as the GMC was. Now my GMC usually gets 20-22mpg (not towing) and 16-18mpg (towing).

gypsyman · « **Reply #6 on:** February 28, 2012, 09:16:52 AM »

A few years back, I was using a Dodge with the Cummins diesel to pull a trailer. The engine had plenty of power, what I ran into was tranny problems. It was an early 3 speed auto with overdrive. I think Dodge has changed their auto tranny's for the diesel, but if it was me, and I wanted a diesel with an auto tranny, I'd go with the Chevy with the Duramax. If you don't mind a stick, go with the Dodge with a 6 speed manual. gypsyman

Drilling Man · « **Reply #7 on:** February 28, 2012, 09:36:35 AM »

I've bought nothing but diesel pu's since 1982, but i just bought a 2012 gas.

Unless you are towing a LOT and i mean a LOT, i don't think you will ever see your money back by buying a diesel. With heavy towing, the diesel will burn less fuel and have more power... BUT, if your not going to use your pu for towing most of the time, i think in the long run you will spend more money to own the diesel.

Some folks buy them just because it's what they want, i've even done that myself, but i no longer am willing to spend $7,000.00 extra for something i really don't need, and won't see a return on the extra dollars spent..

DM

Buckskin · « **Reply #8 on:** February 28, 2012, 09:56:59 AM »

Don't forget about resale value, you will get your money back when you sell it. Much better fuel milage and fuel costs are coming in line with gas by me, only a dime difference now... Although was 8 dimes not too long ago.
If you are pulling anything, diesel is the way to go. But yes you do pay for it up front.

A negative that I should mention is the current gov regulations now make diesel engines use some kind of catalytic system to reduce emissions. Chevy had a terrible system in the beginning, I had a couple and they would gel up and go to 1/2 power if temps got below -15, if you had a bra on the front you were good to go though. And they weren't designed to idle for more than 10 minutes or the particulate filter would clog and you would have to go to the dealer to get it fixed.. So don't buy an older Chevy, I think it started in 07' and was upgraded in 11'...

Now days most have urea systems, so you have to add that once in a while. Have a Ford F250 now with that system, so every 10,000 miles you have to put in a few gallons of the urea.... Get over 20 mph on average, better if I could keep the petal off the floor...

You can by-pass all that crap, but don't take it to a dealer after it's done!!! Or tell too many people.

LONGTOM · « **Reply #9 on:** February 28, 2012, 02:45:13 PM »

All I will say is I have been towing heavy trailers for a living in my business on average over 150,000 miles a year since 1973 up until the last few years with the economy the way it is.
By heavy I mean up to 45,000 lbs and on trips that average as much as 1900 miles round trip with up to 900 miles non stop.
I have owned all the major brands, both diesel and gas, auto and manual trans, 2 wheel and 4x4.
What do I own?
2002 GM GAS BIG BLOCK (8.1L-497 C.I.) 4x4 Crew Cab Dually Allision. (prefer a stick shift) but the Allision is great.
I have not found a stock factory truck set up any other way that will run and pull with it from any company.
You may get better mileage empty or with small trailers and there won't be that much difference but with the heavy stuff, I WILL be there before you.
Diesel is not the way to go for the average person.
What good is an engine that will last 3 to 5 hundred thousand miles when the rest of the truck is shot long before that.
With proper care you can get a couple of hundred thousand miles out of a gas motor.

LONGTOM

Like the light up sign in the back glass says,
" YOU DON'T WAN'T NONE! "

Drilling Man · « **Reply #10 on:** February 28, 2012, 03:33:08 PM »

Quote from: LONGTOM on February 28, 2012, 02:45:13 PM

I won't get into this discussion, I will leave that up to you guys.
All I will say is I have been towing heavy trailers for a living in my business on average over 150,000 miles a year since 1873 up until the last few years with the economy the way it is.

I'm just trying to figure out what kind a truck you used in 1873?? It must have been one tough SOB, cuz i think the roads were pretty rough back then! lol

DM

LONGTOM · « **Reply #11 on:** February 29, 2012, 02:29:40 AM »

Thanks DM, it has been corrected.
In 1873 it only had 1 HORSE power, I guess that is why it lasted so long!

LONGTOM

Buckskin · « **Reply #12 on:** February 29, 2012, 03:03:44 AM »

Gas engines make more horsepower, but diesels produce more torque. And torque is what is needed for towing. How many big rigs and large farm implements have you seen run on gas??? One gallon of diesel contains approximately 147,000 BTUs of energy, while a gallon of gasoline only has 125,000 BTUs. Diesels are more fuel efficient, period, towing, idling or bobtailing.

briarpatch · « **Reply #13 on:** February 29, 2012, 03:35:57 AM »

Had just a little less than 200,000 on a Dodge Cummins. Got a Ford gas f150, does everthing the old Dodge would do but with a lot more gas.
Buying a new desiel is much more expensive but I have seen what I would call super deals in Florida on used desiels trucks by owners. Ive not looked at prices in a year or two so dont know if that still is the case. If you do your homework you can negate the 7000 extra a desiel cost or at least cut it down a lot and let the original owner take the hit.

Conan The Librarian · « **Reply #14 on:** February 29, 2012, 03:38:42 AM »

In practical terms, what is the importance of horsepower vs. torque. I thought horsepower was just a function of torque, and that it's really torque that moves a wheel.

Buckskin · « **Reply #15 on:** February 29, 2012, 04:03:50 AM »

Quote from: Conan The Librarian on February 29, 2012, 03:38:42 AM

In practical terms, what is the importance of horsepower vs. torque. I thought horsepower was just a function of torque, and that it's really torque that moves a wheel.

Here is blurb from a Truck Trends article.
Because of the relatively high-compression ratio necessary to ignite the diesel fuel (17:1 diesel versus 9:1 gas), a diesel makes all its torque and power low in the rev range. As an example, the GM 8.1L gasoline V-8 in Chevrolet and GMC pickups puts out 340 hp and 455 lb-ft of torque, while GM's 6.6L V-8 turbodiesel makes slightly less hp at only 300, but makes up for it in torque with a healthy 520 lb-ft of grunt.
Again, show me one piece of machinery that is used for pulling, digging or hauling that is run on a gas engine... We used to have an old D-17 tractor on the farm that was gasoline driven, it had a hard time pulling a hay wagon. Also had a similar HP tractor that was diesel driven and it could pull a cultivator.

LONGTOM · « **Reply #16 on:** February 29, 2012, 04:21:02 AM »

Quote

Gas engines make more horsepower, but diesels produce more torque. And torque is what is needed for towing. How many big rigs and large farm implements have you seen run on gas??? One gallon of diesel contains approximately 147,000 BTUs of energy, while a gallon of gasoline only has 125,000 BTUs. Diesels are more fuel efficient, period, towing, idling or bobtailing.

You can get torque through gearing.
Torque isn't a big factor at high speed, it only really comes into play at low speed and starting a load off.
A 6 cylinder gas engine geared low enough will pull with any diesel on the road but won't run very fast.
Torque is what starts your load out from a stop.
You really don't need torque from the engine to do this, gearing will do the same thing.
It takes horsepower to give you the torque at the higher speeds.
That is why I will put my 497 C.I. big block up against any factory diesel pickup on the road.
I have gears low enough to get it rolling from the start but enough horsepower to keep it up to speed out on the open road and on the hills.
We have run them back to back on the same trip and empty the diesel got much better mileage.
Loaded it was barely better mileage but the gas engine would out pull the diesel on every big hill with ease.
I know what has worked for us from over 40 years of hauling and for the heavy loads, we will stick with a big gas motor.
Remember, we are talking pickups, not big trucks.

LONGTOM

Conan The Librarian · « **Reply #17 on:** February 29, 2012, 04:21:23 AM »

I think I understand torque vs. horsepower now. Torque is the ability to do work. Horsepower is a function of both torque and time. So, a higher horsepower engine can do more work in a shorter time. For a car, this means accelleration in situations like passing and other times when accelleration at relatively hgh speeds matters.

For example, a high horsepower might be able to rev up from an idle to 8000 RPM very quickly, and if there's enough torque, the car will accellerate quickly along with the engine. If there's not much torque, the engine may be able to rev high, but will bog down or stall instead. If there's a lot of torque and low horsepower, the engine will rev slower, and the car will accellerate slower, but it will have the power to accellerate, albeit more gradually.

LONGTOM · « **Reply #18 on:** February 29, 2012, 04:30:07 AM »

You got it Conan!

That's why big trucks and farm equipment run big diesel engines and cars, pickups & drag cars run big gas engines.

LONGTOM

bilmac · « **Reply #19 on:** February 29, 2012, 04:33:15 AM »

I had a diesel car once. Didn't like it much because when you changed the oil you just as well could have put ink on your hands.

LONGTOM · « **Reply #20 on:** February 29, 2012, 04:44:07 AM »

Quote from: bilmac on February 29, 2012, 04:33:15 AM

I had a diesel car once. Didn't like it much because when you changed the oil you just as well could have put ink on your hands.

I put that question to an oil man once and this is the answere he gave me.
I asked why my oil in my cat motor always looked black even after just a few hundred miles.
His reply was that the oil was doing its job of cleaning the insides of the engine.
If it ain't black it aint working!

LONGTOM

BBF · « **Reply #21 on:** February 29, 2012, 05:56:29 AM »

Have you ever wondered/asked yourself why locomotives use Diesel/Electric powerplants?

Conan The Librarian · « **Reply #22 on:** February 29, 2012, 06:06:16 AM »

The diesel electrics locomotives are interestinig because the full torque of the electric motor is available instantly. There is no revving up. The diesel is already revved up and the power of the electric is fully available to get the train started moving.

It's fun to watch some of these trains. They have a sand sprayer that puts grit on the track so the wheels don't slip when the power is first applied.

BBF · « **Reply #23 on:** February 29, 2012, 05:19:03 PM »

There is another way to get real heavy trains to move.
A. Apply brakes on the last two cars.
B.Put locomotive in reverse to remove all slack in the linkages/bumpers.
C.Shift forward and release brakes on last cars.

OOPS, off topic !!

anachronism · « **Reply #24 on:** March 01, 2012, 02:28:07 PM »

If you're going to tow a lot of weight, and often, get the diesel. Although diesel engines generally (not always) live longer than gas burners, maintenance is higher, as are repairs. A friend just replaced 4 injectors in his diesel. They were over $200.00 ea, exchange. Electronic injectors are painfully expensive. I told him I could almost replace the engine in my gas burner for what 8 injectors would cost him. He's now looking for an early 90s Ford Dually, to go through. The plan is to rebuild a 5.9 Cummins mechanical engine for the truck, when he finds what he wants. Oh, oil changes are much more expensive too, diesels typically have a large oil capacity.

Land_Owner · « **Reply #25 on:** March 02, 2012, 02:57:59 AM »

I just like diesels, although my 1999 F250 diesel went through 3 trannys in 5 years so I got rid of it.

Before making the "jump" from gas to diesel I asked my Construction Contractor and Friend why he didn't run diesels for business trucks? His response was all I needed. He said his business would never own another diesel PU. I was floored. When I asked why he said his workers tear up the bodies, interiors, suspension, trannys, etc., and he was exhausted from throwing "perfectly good" engines away, with barely 200K-miles on them at the salvage yard, some engines not really broken in yet, and it hurt his heart to do that.

I am on my 2nd diesel in 13 years. The current F350 has 200K-miles on her already. No tranny work - but it is coming, no engine work - it too is coming (white smoke), and compared to the gas engine F250 PU I had from 1988 to 1999, for which I paid two times to replace every single item on that gas truck, it has been a Dream to have had almost no maintenance issues on the diesel since 2004, except routine changing of the oil - a key to long-life engine success.

Buckskin · « **Reply #26 on:** March 02, 2012, 03:06:52 AM »

I agree with Longtom that the Allision transmission is the best thing on the road, had Chevy's all my life and several 2500 diesels with Allisions in them, never had a lick of trouble and dragged 10k trailers all over the country and over the Rocky's several times. The F250 that I have now, it's tranny is not even close... Unfortunately.... But Obama made me leave Chevy and become a Ford guy.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #27 on:** March 02, 2012, 03:26:20 AM »

I have had a Ford , 3 Dodge and 1 chevy diesel PU trucks all 3/4 ton HD when aval. They all towed good. The Ford was a 97 and got 22 MPG , Chevy a 2004 17 MPG. the dodges one a 2007 got 16 mpg and the other 2 -2001 got 15 mpg. All when not towing. When towing all got a lot less mpg. I tow up to 24 ft trls. up to 10000 lbs. We no longer have diesels as the cost of fuel is high. As they were worn out we replaced them with gas engine trucks. The Ford has been the best replacement . Two cheys have had trans trouble and the dodges front ends have been problems. We have been using 5.4 engines but have ordered a 6.3 or 6.2 gas engine truck. The 5.4 engine trucks get about 13 MPG , they have tool boxes full and ladder rack. We have several . They don't pull as well as the diesel but they do well enough and cost less.

eye shot · « **Reply #28 on:** March 02, 2012, 03:45:53 AM »

TM7
Funny you mentioned pulling boats out a ramp. I have a 31' Silverton about 7 tons wet. A bud with a new Ford at the time 7.3 turbo diesel tried to pull it out. The back axel of the tri axel trailer was off the end of the ramp and after powering the boat on the trailer that dually just sit there and smoked. He had allready put a new tranny in at ten thousand miles so I told him to stop befor he fried another. Had him back up a few inches and then give it hell and he finally smoked his way up the ramp. I was planning retirement and got a Chevy Duramax- Allison and a 32' 5th wheel. I think the big differance is the torque convertor- tranny because that Allison pulled the same boat out at 1500rpm and never missed a lick. My diesel runs a 3.73 gear a gasser to get the same power would be running a 4.88-5.13 gear at a lot higher rpm- less mpg.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #29 on:** March 02, 2012, 05:17:52 AM »

Like I posted I have all three brands diesel trucks and put alot of miles on all three brands. First pulling 7 tons up a wet ramp I would opt for 4WD . As for pulling gas equal to diesel go with a Dodge 10 cyl. They can keep up and pass most , I had one . Draw back 7 MPG . The Allison is a great tran. but you need to change fluid every 25000 miles ( I used Amsoil made for the Allison trans in buses and larger trucks ). As for pulling , I once pulled a lowboy trl with a 30000 rating loaded with a PU over Afton mt. If you have ever been over it you know it would be a challenge. The Ford with the 7.3 did fine maintained 65 to the top.
Most diesels work if eletronics are good. Most trans work if serviced . What most don't consider is front end componets and their life span. Look under all three brands and see who beefed up the suspinsion and frame to carry the weight of the diesel engine anbd transmission. You can save alot on fuel only to pizz it away on shocks, springs , etc. Been there done that.