Author Topic: Kid Rock endorses Mitt Romney  (Read 5153 times)

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Offline flmason

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Re: Kid Rock endorses Mitt Romney
« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2012, 12:42:53 AM »
Quote
"Cost $80, sell for $90", LOL! Try "a keystone". Markups at each level from manufacturer, to distributor, to retailer are like 100% at each hop. End consumer gets *nailed*. Internet was supposed to kill some of that via "disintermediation"... ain't seen it yet. But offshoring has certainly *nailed* the little person from the salary direction as well.

 
 
Yeah.    ::)     Find a company making a 50% profit (100% markup) and they could sell stock like nobody's business.  Just ain't happening.


Went shopping for some new furniture with the wife.. Markup has got to be 200%.  Ridiculous some of the prices :)
00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
 
   This seems to be a common misunderstanding of capitalism which most liberals suffer from.  If some retailer is taking too much of a markup...don't buy from that retailer!  If customers walk away, that retailer has two choices; a) lower prices... or.. b) go out of business.  Nobody has their arm twisted as they enter a retail establishment !
   An exploitative business is certainly guilty of greed, but if you're looking for a place to vent your anger..look to your fellow consumers !  If they were not so gullible or stupid (take your choice) but to buy from an overpriced pigsty..that pigsty would no longer be in business.
  Capitalism is the fairest, most levelling type of economy... until the people elect communists to over tax and destroy the system.

Yes, a true 50% net would be a find, LOL! Not sure how many do or ever have without some research.
 
 I'm not a liberal, at least not in the way you use the word, I want personal freedom to much to be aligned with today's liberal. But you seem to suffer from the belief that folks can just up and not buy food and the like. That they can realistically, by choice, disengage from the economy and the Federal gov't.

Well... let's see... last time someone tried that... Oh yeah... it was called the "Civil War"... and they lost, LOL!

All kidding aside, the practical reality is the owners of resources and capital have the rust of us by the proverbial short ones, simple as that. Everything on the planet is now "owned", and thus you have to buy from *someone*, be it a retailer or not. On the day you are born, if you are lie most of us, you have nada, zero. So you must get the commodities required for survival from somewhere. And for the most part, those are already claimed.

Capitalism left ubridled leads to oligopolies and the like. History shows that. You do remember such wonderful things as child labor, right?

Ah well, if you can't see that, don't know how I can get you to see past your programming and just look at what is.

Liberal or conservative, yeah it matters a little, but Rich v. Poor is the real dividing line.

Online ironglow

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Re: Kid Rock endorses Mitt Romney
« Reply #31 on: April 28, 2012, 01:13:35 AM »
Quote
"Cost $80, sell for $90", LOL! Try "a keystone". Markups at each level from manufacturer, to distributor, to retailer are like 100% at each hop. End consumer gets *nailed*. Internet was supposed to kill some of that via "disintermediation"... ain't seen it yet. But offshoring has certainly *nailed* the little person from the salary direction as well.

 
 
Yeah.    ::)     Find a company making a 50% profit (100% markup) and they could sell stock like nobody's business.  Just ain't happening.


Went shopping for some new furniture with the wife.. Markup has got to be 200%.  Ridiculous some of the prices :)
00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
 
   This seems to be a common misunderstanding of capitalism which most liberals suffer from.  If some retailer is taking too much of a markup...don't buy from that retailer!  If customers walk away, that retailer has two choices; a) lower prices... or.. b) go out of business.  Nobody has their arm twisted as they enter a retail establishment !
   An exploitative business is certainly guilty of greed, but if you're looking for a place to vent your anger..look to your fellow consumers !  If they were not so gullible or stupid (take your choice) but to buy from an overpriced pigsty..that pigsty would no longer be in business.
  Capitalism is the fairest, most levelling type of economy... until the people elect communists to over tax and destroy the system.

Yes, a true 50% net would be a find, LOL! Not sure how many do or ever have without some research.
 
 I'm not a liberal, at least not in the way you use the word, I want personal freedom to much to be aligned with today's liberal. But you seem to suffer from the belief that folks can just up and not buy food and the like. That they can realistically, by choice, disengage from the economy and the Federal gov't.

Well... let's see... last time someone tried that... Oh yeah... it was called the "Civil War"... and they lost, LOL!

All kidding aside, the practical reality is the owners of resources and capital have the rust of us by the proverbial short ones, simple as that. Everything on the planet is now "owned", and thus you have to buy from *someone*, be it a retailer or not. On the day you are born, if you are lie most of us, you have nada, zero. So you must get the commodities required for survival from somewhere. And for the most part, those are already claimed.

Capitalism left ubridled leads to oligopolies and the like. History shows that. You do remember such wonderful things as child labor, right?

Ah well, if you can't see that, don't know how I can get you to see past your programming and just look at what is.

Liberal or conservative, yeah it matters a little, but Rich v. Poor is the real dividing line.
000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
 
  FL;
  First off, let's get this straight..you said " But you seem to suffer from the belief that folks can just up and not buy food and the like'  I made no suggestion such as that, Scoot was talking about furniture, not necessities (e.g. food, shelter. clothing).
  With furniture, one can usually wait but in the rare instance they can't..they can shop around, or buy 2nd hand.
   You're talking poor vs rich..today in the US there are very few truly "poor" people..compared to Haiti, Somalia or N Korea.
 I am not "rich" but I'm not "hurting" either. I don't envy those who are rich, because the millionaires I know, all worked long and hard to get it.  My neighbor is perhaps worth 150 million, he 80 and is in the office of his trucking co at 3AM every morning.  Her started out with one beat up truck, hauling cans of milk from the local farms (left school at 15).
 
  Sure, some like the Kennedys or John Kerry had it given to them..but I still don't envy them..they have their OWN problems.
   
  If the tax was a flat 10% and no loopholes or "goodies" for socialist politicians to hand out, we could function much better as a nation. 
  Sounds like you would like to be in business.. Today it is hard for the average guy to go into business..startup permits, incorporating costs and taxes, rules and regulations, minimumwages, Obamacare, EPAs own ridiculous requirements, lawyer fees etc, etc..    Big govt causes all these stumbling blocks..big govt ..not your friend !
    Sure I am very conservative but i can easily see the need for a few NECESSARY laws to govern such things as monopolies, child labor and the environment, some of our most conservative leaders have backed all those things.  Nixon launched the EPA to provide reasonable protection for our environment...but not so some pip-squeak egg-head could "crucify" ligitimate businesses !
  These days the corporations have to fight the gestapo-like EPA in court at very turn.  The taxpayer is paying for both sides of thiese games..one side in direct taxes the other side in raised costs for goods and services.
    Big government is NOBODY'S FRIEND..nobody but socialist politicians...
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline DDZ

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Re: Kid Rock endorses Mitt Romney
« Reply #32 on: April 28, 2012, 04:48:04 AM »
If it were not for rich people in this country we would be in trouble, but yet the liberals love to complain about people with money, and the fact that they don't pay enough taxes. They also love to use the words "tax fairness". I have even read it here a number of times. I'm still trying to figure out what standard of FAIRNESS dictates that the top 10% of income earners pay 70% of the tax burden, while 47% of Americans pay no federal income tax.
People who pay little or no income tax, become constituents for big spending socialist politicians. If you pay no income tax, what do you care if income taxes are raised? Also you won't be happy about tax cuts, because you'll see them as a threat to your handouts. If we want to really talk about fairness everyone needs to pay something. Otherwise it just isn't fair.   
Those people who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants.    Wm. Penn

Offline DDZ

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Re: Kid Rock endorses Mitt Romney
« Reply #33 on: April 28, 2012, 05:11:55 AM »
TM, please explain how taxes are flat when almost 50% pay no income tax. Do you see it as fair that these people pay nothing in income tax? Where is the middle when half pay nothing and the other half pays everything?
Those people who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants.    Wm. Penn

Offline scootrd

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Re: Kid Rock endorses Mitt Romney
« Reply #34 on: April 28, 2012, 06:31:28 AM »
without getting scientific , let me just provide this generalized statement

  • There are those below the poverty line who pay nothing to very little. (except they still pay tax on purchases, gas etc.)
  • Then there is the middle class who receive almost zero tax breaks anymore and who pay the most taxes in America. ( I think we now work from January to July or some such date to pay for all the taxes). 
  • Then there are the uber wealthy who because they make money off money they pay a lower tax rate than everyone else.
 
oh yeah and lets not forget

US corporations loopholes in the tax systems that allow them to shelter monies to avoid paying actual corporate tax rate.  A recent study by GAO found that 55 percent of United States companies paid no federal income taxes during at least one year in a seven-year period it studied.  (corporations are people too my friend -  Romney's an idiot! sorry I digress)

Then there are the multi national corporations who put their costs in high-tax countries and profits in low-tax countries," to avoid paying US taxes altogether. The United States tax code rates with a bounty of subsidies, shelters and special breaks has made American multinationals “world leaders in tax avoidance,”

Corporate taxes accounted for only 9 percent of all federal revenue in 2010.

So let's review ,
Poor pay very little
Rich pay lower rates
Corporations pay none or well below actual U.S rates.

Hmm wonder who paid the other 91% (82% actually but you get the drift) lets see -  Ah yes,  there we have it the working poor middle class stiff.  quite a far cry from what our founding fathers envisioned.


 
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Offline Casull

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Re: Kid Rock endorses Mitt Romney
« Reply #35 on: April 28, 2012, 06:57:16 AM »
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Flat Tax'' in common parlarnce and as proposed by so-called conservative talkers is a socialistic concept, really neo-Bolshevik, is regressive as he!!....

 
 
BS!!!!!!!!!!!!!    Show me how a flat tax on income is regressive.   ::)
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Offline scootrd

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Re: Kid Rock endorses Mitt Romney
« Reply #36 on: April 28, 2012, 09:00:34 AM »
Until the 16th amendment is repealed it matters not flat tax , progressive or fair tax reform proposals are adopted. The 16th Amendment removed our "no direct taxation" safeguard which the founders fathers placed in our original document.

As Thomas Jefferson documented in Congress July 4, 1776 , The unanimous Declaration of the Thirteen United States of America (speaking of King George--"He has erected a Multitude of new Offices, and sent hither Swarms of Officers to harass our People, and eat out their Substance." “For imposing   Taxes on us without our Consent”

As long as the 16th Amendment remains in effect, we will always suffer the tax burdens placed upon us by Government bureaucrats, tax collectors, and tax enforcement personnel.

"if your old flathead doesn't leak you are out of oil"
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Offline Casull

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Re: Kid Rock endorses Mitt Romney
« Reply #37 on: April 28, 2012, 09:05:38 AM »
Well, if it were passed per the Constitution (some question of that), then it was enacted as the Founders set forth.  The main argument that the Constitution is not a "living document" is that the Founders put in place provisions for its amendment.
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Offline Casull

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Re: Kid Rock endorses Mitt Romney
« Reply #38 on: April 28, 2012, 09:38:57 AM »
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Before I answer your sincere and kind inquiry...tell us what your idea of a regressive tax is .

 
 
 
Sorry if my response was a bit blunt.  But, I tend to call that when I see it.  Here is the definition (not my idea) of regressive as it relates to taxation:
 
 3. Decreasing proportionately as the amount taxed increases: a regressive tax.\ 
 
 Now, I'll eat my words if you can show me how a flat tax on income can be regressive.
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Offline scootrd

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Re: Kid Rock endorses Mitt Romney
« Reply #39 on: April 28, 2012, 10:38:02 AM »
Just a quick google of a few sites regarding is flat tax regressive ?

It all comes down to interpretations.

Excerpts - 


Reasonable views -

The most common objection is unfairness. You might wonder what is so unfair about making everyone pay the same percentage of their income, but the argument goes something like this:

1. Poor and middle-class people can’t afford to give up as large a percentage of their income as better-off folks.

2. Rich people would pay a smaller percentage of their income than under the current system. Under all proposals, people making over $200,000 pay less than now, so whether your definition of wealthy is the same as President Obama’s ($200K for an individual, $250K for a family) or Warren Buffett’s (several million $/year), wealthy people pay less than they do now. If a flat tax plan eliminates capital gains taxes as well, wealthier individuals really save money.

3. Many local and state taxes are regressive. State sales taxes, gasoline taxes, cigarette taxes, etc. often result in lower income individuals paying a higher percentage of their income in taxes than wealthier people. A flat federal tax, while not regressive, is not progressive either, meaning it will not compensate for the state/local taxes.

Even under a flax taxation program, Americans aren’t really paying equally. Higher-income individuals and families would still pay quite a bit more than lower-income people; it just wouldn’t be a difference in the percentage of their income. Using a 20% flat tax rate as an example, someone with $50,000 in taxable income would pay $10,000 in tax, while someone with $1,000,000 in taxable income would pay $200,000 in federal tax.

Christian Science Monitor  -

How would a flat tax affect low- and middle-income households? A flat tax would be much more regressive than the current income tax. For one thing, it’s unlikely to include the refundable tax credits (like the EITC and child credit) that augment the earnings of low earners. It’s not impossible to add refundable credits. As a result, poor people will pay a larger share of their income than they do at present. Middle-income people will also pay more.

Moreover, spending falls as a share of income as income rises. Low-income people spend all their income or more. High-income people spend only a tiny fraction. (See chart.) A VAT or flat tax inevitably exempts most of the income of high-income people from tax. If it is going to raise the same amount of revenue as the current system, it must raise somebody else’s taxes. That would be low- and middle-income people.

Washington Post - Tax Policy -

In its purest form, a flat tax eliminates all loopholes and tax breaks, ends taxation of investment income, and puts everyone in the same tax bracket no matter how much they make. Arguably, you could file your flat-tax return on a postcard: Wages times X percent, attach check. A pure flat tax is inherently regressive, because the poor pay the same percentage of their income in taxes as the rich.
"if your old flathead doesn't leak you are out of oil"
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Offline Casull

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Re: Kid Rock endorses Mitt Romney
« Reply #40 on: April 28, 2012, 11:18:49 AM »
Scootrd, if you read those passages, NONE of them show a flat tax on income to be regressive.  They can't, since that is an impossibility.
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Offline flmason

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Re: Kid Rock endorses Mitt Romney
« Reply #41 on: April 28, 2012, 11:18:55 AM »


Quote
"Cost $80, sell for $90", LOL! Try "a keystone". Markups at each level from manufacturer, to distributor, to retailer are like 100% at each hop. End consumer gets *nailed*. Internet was supposed to kill some of that via "disintermediation"... ain't seen it yet. But offshoring has certainly *nailed* the little person from the salary direction as well.

 
 
Yeah.    ::)     Find a company making a 50% profit (100% markup) and they could sell stock like nobody's business.  Just ain't happening.


Went shopping for some new furniture with the wife.. Markup has got to be 200%.  Ridiculous some of the prices :)
00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
 
   This seems to be a common misunderstanding of capitalism which most liberals suffer from.  If some retailer is taking too much of a markup...don't buy from that retailer!  If customers walk away, that retailer has two choices; a) lower prices... or.. b) go out of business.  Nobody has their arm twisted as they enter a retail establishment !
   An exploitative business is certainly guilty of greed, but if you're looking for a place to vent your anger..look to your fellow consumers !  If they were not so gullible or stupid (take your choice) but to buy from an overpriced pigsty..that pigsty would no longer be in business.
  Capitalism is the fairest, most levelling type of economy... until the people elect communists to over tax and destroy the system.

Yes, a true 50% net would be a find, LOL! Not sure how many do or ever have without some research.
 
 I'm not a liberal, at least not in the way you use the word, I want personal freedom to much to be aligned with today's liberal. But you seem to suffer from the belief that folks can just up and not buy food and the like. That they can realistically, by choice, disengage from the economy and the Federal gov't.

Well... let's see... last time someone tried that... Oh yeah... it was called the "Civil War"... and they lost, LOL!

All kidding aside, the practical reality is the owners of resources and capital have the rust of us by the proverbial short ones, simple as that. Everything on the planet is now "owned", and thus you have to buy from *someone*, be it a retailer or not. On the day you are born, if you are lie most of us, you have nada, zero. So you must get the commodities required for survival from somewhere. And for the most part, those are already claimed.

Capitalism left ubridled leads to oligopolies and the like. History shows that. You do remember such wonderful things as child labor, right?

Ah well, if you can't see that, don't know how I can get you to see past your programming and just look at what is.

Liberal or conservative, yeah it matters a little, but Rich v. Poor is the real dividing line.
000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
 
  FL;
  First off, let's get this straight..you said " But you seem to suffer from the belief that folks can just up and not buy food and the like'  I made no suggestion such as that, Scoot was talking about furniture, not necessities (e.g. food, shelter. clothing).
  With furniture, one can usually wait but in the rare instance they can't..they can shop around, or buy 2nd hand.
   You're talking poor vs rich..today in the US there are very few truly "poor" people..compared to Haiti, Somalia or N Korea.
 I am not "rich" but I'm not "hurting" either. I don't envy those who are rich, because the millionaires I know, all worked long and hard to get it.  My neighbor is perhaps worth 150 million, he 80 and is in the office of his trucking co at 3AM every morning.  Her started out with one beat up truck, hauling cans of milk from the local farms (left school at 15).
 
  Sure, some like the Kennedys or John Kerry had it given to them..but I still don't envy them..they have their OWN problems.
   
  If the tax was a flat 10% and no loopholes or "goodies" for socialist politicians to hand out, we could function much better as a nation. 
  Sounds like you would like to be in business.. Today it is hard for the average guy to go into business..startup permits, incorporating costs and taxes, rules and regulations, minimumwages, Obamacare, EPAs own ridiculous requirements, lawyer fees etc, etc..    Big govt causes all these stumbling blocks..big govt ..not your friend !
    Sure I am very conservative but i can easily see the need for a few NECESSARY laws to govern such things as monopolies, child labor and the environment, some of our most conservative leaders have backed all those things.  Nixon launched the EPA to provide reasonable protection for our environment...but not so some pip-squeak egg-head could "crucify" ligitimate businesses !
  These days the corporations have to fight the gestapo-like EPA in court at very turn.  The taxpayer is paying for both sides of thiese games..one side in direct taxes the other side in raised costs for goods and services.
    Big government is NOBODY'S FRIEND..nobody but socialist politicians...

OK, if lost the track on "furniture" v. "neccessities". Sorry about that. But it's all relevant if we are talking about economic life in general.

Well, no see, you've seen the opposite of what I've seen. You talk of someone starting with one truck and getting somewhere. There are minions and minions who work just as hard or harder, who I've seen end up nowhere. Caught on the treadmill as it were.  And even the folks you are talking about, statistically, are an anomoly, right? What percentage of startups fail? I may recall this wrongly, but last I know it was something like 95% fail in the first 5 years?

The game is not set up to free the many, it's geared to ensure the top stays on the top. Can that not be seen? Is it even a question? That would be Wall Street, Fed, and truly wealthy types right? And yes, some may be Kennedys or [fill in the blank old money name here]. And, having known one or two of those types, they live very differently from the rest of us. Even folks most would call reasonably rich. (Spent some time growing up in an area where there were many... there's an obelisk to Rose Kennedy in the garden at building I worked in... a public gov't building no less.)

Anyway, to clarify my stance. Like you I'm for smallest practical gov't. By today's use of the word, I guess I'm a conservative, but not anything like what I'd call a current "Limbaugh Conservative", LOL! I'm big on the idea of individual freedom and as much independence as possible. That's what I want my gov't to ensure.

But at the same time I realize that unlimited freedom can lead to unlimited power for the "winners" or those groups sufficiently organized. Note my stance is "Individual Freedom". Accent on "Individual"... well to have that you need protection from the bigger bear or the pack of wolves, to make a nature analogy, no?

Yes, big gov't. USSR type socialist gov't just changes who the winners get to be, but the rest are still subjects. Both forms cause a "master" - "Subordinate" relationship to form. The Boss, just happens to be from different groups.

Now I'm not sure why the environment thing is stuck in your craw. (But that is sounding Limbaugh... "Enviro-Nazi" is his term, no?)

In the end, unless carefully controlled... "Big Anything" is no one's friend, except the insiders.

At the moment that would be defined by who controls the resources... whether it be Big Business, who wants us to be slaves to their bottom line... Or Big Lefty... who wants us to be slaves to their gov't edicts.

See how it's all the same, and it's still all about resource control?

Strikes me that perhaps your perspective is that of someone in a Small or Medium Business?

Mine is that of one who's asking, "Where is Individual Freedom at a high quality of life to be found if you weren't born to it, and are trapped in a system designed to exploit you?"

The list of Fort. 500's on my resume would probably give you pause... yet at the same time I see the work being offshored and putting wage pressure on U.S. citizens to compete against world labor prices... sometimes held down by gov'ts such as China. And our leadership going at it full steam... the bottom line and all, right?

So again, it's not about Left or Right. It's about Up and Down. (I think even R. Reagan said that in one speach?).  It's about control of resources and who has to do the grunt work... about how to ensure that labor never can exert significant price pressure on wealth, ultimately.

That's why 4% unemployment (or whatever the current magic number is) is so important.  It leaves just enough slack to insure the house edge against the many. Combined with the game the Fed plays... it's geared at maintaining status quo.

But heck that idea is even built into our legal thinking as "Stare Decisis".

From the beginning the American form of gov't was a republic. Essentially designed to give the wealthy (land and slave owners at that time) preferred access to the machinery of law.

Recollect that many of the Founding Fathers were worried about "Tyranny of the Masses", seriously, and took steps to guard against it. So one of the things that is built in... one of the things "checked and balanced" against... is "true" democracy.

Which BTW, is not necessarily an attack. Just an observation. Trying to establish the truth, independent of partisan spin from the various economic interests that try to spin these kind of discussions.

We need to be able to establish what something *is*, and what "good" is and what "fair" is, before we can even begin to arrive at solutions. Otherwise, what we have is just a bunch of bickering and jockeying for the $$$ from each respective corner.

Essentially we've not progressed from law of the jungle, we've just codified it and toned down the level of conflict some.

P.S. Regarding third world countries and poverty., Can't really comment. It's unclear to me how much of that really is the result of first world polices vrs. how much is the 3rd world inhabitants themselves. Clearly both factors play a part.

Offline scootrd

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Re: Kid Rock endorses Mitt Romney
« Reply #42 on: April 28, 2012, 03:26:35 PM »
Scootrd, if you read those passages, NONE of them show a flat tax on income to be regressive.  They can't, since that is an impossibility.

read more carefully  -  I'm just reporting what a simple google search provides when seeking "s a flat tax regressive?"
There were many more instances these are just 3 that addressed the question.

Christian Science Monitor  -

How would a flat tax affect low- and middle-income households? A flat tax would be much more regressive than the current income tax. For one thing, it’s unlikely to include the refundable tax credits (like the EITC and child credit) that augment the earnings of low earners. It’s not impossible to add refundable credits. As a result, poor people will pay a larger share of their income than they do at present. Middle-income people will also pay more.
"if your old flathead doesn't leak you are out of oil"
"I have strong feelings about gun control. If there is a gun around I want to be controlling it." - Clint Eastwood
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjaman Franklin
"It's better to be hated for who you are , then loved for who your not." - Van Zant

Offline Casull

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Re: Kid Rock endorses Mitt Romney
« Reply #43 on: April 28, 2012, 06:32:04 PM »
Quote
read more carefully  -  I'm just reporting what a simple google search provides when seeking "s a flat tax regressive?"
There were many more instances these are just 3 that addressed the question.

 
Quote
A flat tax would be much more regressive than the current income tax.

 
 
Scootrd, no problem with my reading abilities.  Again, NONE of them SHOW a flat tax on income to be regressive.  It is an impossibility.  Saying that a flat tax is "more regressive" does NOT make it regressive.  Actually, saying that shows ignorance of what "regressive" is, or more likely, a dishonesty by the writer.
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Offline Swampman

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Re: Kid Rock endorses Mitt Romney
« Reply #44 on: April 29, 2012, 01:16:33 AM »
If it helps Mitt get elected then it's good for America.  I care about that.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline DDZ

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Re: Kid Rock endorses Mitt Romney
« Reply #45 on: April 29, 2012, 05:42:57 AM »
Yeah, those rich guys getting richer. How awful! Maybe we should petition government to start taking their land, cars, furniture, jewelry, or whatever other possessions we feel they have to much of. So the idea is that if you spend money to educate yourself, then strive through hard work, and long hours to make as much money as you can. You then owe a larger portion of it to everyone else. Even if everyone else takes the easy road and says you owe me. At what point do these people say the heck with it, and stop producing?

Lets all be envy of what the rich have, and just take it from them. Heck a little communism can't be all that bad.
Those people who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants.    Wm. Penn

Offline Casull

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Re: Kid Rock endorses Mitt Romney
« Reply #46 on: April 29, 2012, 05:47:34 AM »
I see, tm7, why you are confused.  By your "idea", any tax that doesn't cause more "pain" to those that have more is regressive.  Just what I thought you meant.  I knew you wouldn't be able to show me how a flat tax on income is regressive.  As I said before, by definition, a flat tax on income CANNOT be regressive.
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Offline Casull

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Re: Kid Rock endorses Mitt Romney
« Reply #47 on: April 29, 2012, 08:19:50 AM »
Quote
Nope...that's you trolling and mincing what I wrote again...Seems your idea of regressive taxation is simply not shared by the majority of people and tax experts...and that's OK..your opinion doesn't really matter..
 Go back to post #52 and re-read...

 
 
No trolling here . . . and no opinion (except on your end).  Those so-called experts you refer to evade the definition of "regressive taxation" in order to make arguments based on everything but how a flat tax cannot be regressive.  When they say that a flat tax is "more regressive" than the current progressive tax scheme they are showing their dishonesty.  That would be like saying a cat is more dog-like than a turtle, and thus a cat is a dog.  By definition, a regressive tax puts a higher PERCENTAGE burden on those making less.  Please explain how a flat tax on income can do this.  Hint . . . don't bother, as it is not possible.  Also, please provide your evidence that a "majority of people" believe the definition of regressive taxation is not true (again, DEFINITION, not my opinion).
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Online ironglow

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Re: Kid Rock endorses Mitt Romney
« Reply #48 on: April 30, 2012, 04:22:19 AM »
 
  Let's get rid of a falsehood which is being propagated by the DNC..for those dense enough to swallow it !  They show 40% as "payroll taxes"..just what are "payroll taxes" ?  Payroll taxes are your social security payments, unemployment insurance, compensation insurance, medicare insurance...and if we know Democrats, they probably count health insurance payments too.
   
     Obviously, these are not "taxes" per se..but simply payments for benefits coming to that same employee...although an argument could be made regarding social security, since the Dems started robbing it in the 1960s.
 
  Not mentioned here..the comically named "earned income" tax credit.. where someone who works but has paid no tax..gets to grab some of our tax money and take it home.  ;)   :D   http://www.alllaw.com/articles/tax/article5.asp
 
 
   
 
    C'mon libs...let's at least TRY to be honest !
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline Casull

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Re: Kid Rock endorses Mitt Romney
« Reply #49 on: April 30, 2012, 05:58:48 AM »
Quote
You are dwelling on only one half of the definiton for your reality. Refer back to post #52 for more reality, which clearly states in terms of individual income and wealth, a regressive tax imposes a greater burden (relative to resources) on the poorer folks than on the richer folks

 
 
No, tm7, you, like those quoted in post #52, are attempting to ignore or run around the definition a regressive tax in order to make a nonsensical argument.  Namely, that a flat tax on income somehow taxes those on the lower end at a greater percentage than those at the upper end.  Clearly, that just is NOT true (no matter how much you or anyone else tries to dance around it).
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Offline scootrd

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Re: Kid Rock endorses Mitt Romney
« Reply #50 on: April 30, 2012, 06:14:50 AM »

  Let's get rid of a falsehood which is being propagated by the DNC..for those dense enough to swallow it !  They show 40% as "payroll taxes"..just what are "payroll taxes" ?  Payroll taxes are your social security payments, unemployment insurance, compensation insurance, medicare insurance...and if we know Democrats, they probably count health insurance payments too.
   
     Obviously, these are not "taxes" per se..but simply payments for benefits coming to that same employee...although an argument could be made regarding social security, since the Dems started robbing it in the 1960s.
 
  Not mentioned here..the comically named "earned income" tax credit.. where someone who works but has paid no tax..gets to grab some of our tax money and take it home.  ;)   :D   http://www.alllaw.com/articles/tax/article5.asp
 
 
   
 
    C'mon libs...let's at least TRY to be honest !

IG ,
I'm not sure what the issue is , this is not DNC DATA ..

This chart is the same chart published every year by the Tax policy center no matter which political administration is in office. The Tax policy center provides independent unbiased analysis and has no political affiliations.
They are a non-partisan joint venture of the Urban Institute and the Brookings Institution.


If you are challenging the chart give 'em a call or contact them - http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/aboutus/index.cfm
or you can contact Whitehouse.gov here is the link (also provided on the graph)  -  http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/Historicals/
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Offline scootrd

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Re: Kid Rock endorses Mitt Romney
« Reply #51 on: April 30, 2012, 06:58:57 AM »
Quote
You are dwelling on only one half of the definiton for your reality. Refer back to post #52 for more reality, which clearly states in terms of individual income and wealth, a regressive tax imposes a greater burden (relative to resources) on the poorer folks than on the richer folks

 
 
No, tm7, you, like those quoted in post #52, are attempting to ignore or run around the definition a regressive tax in order to make a nonsensical argument.  Namely, that a flat tax on income somehow taxes those on the lower end at a greater percentage than those at the upper end.  Clearly, that just is NOT true (no matter how much you or anyone else tries to dance around it).
I'm also trying to understand why some consider a flat tax is regressive -
Here is latest Info read. will share more as I read more.

A proportional tax is a tax imposed so that the tax rate is fixed.

Proportional taxes on consumption are considered by some to be regressive; that is, low income people tend to spend a greater percentage of their income in taxable sales than higher income people.

Personally , If it were up to me , I would avoid the whole darn debate, scrap both ideas our present progressive system and the proposed flat tax,  and institute the Fairtax. With some essentials all need as exempt from the consumption taxes imposed, food , clothing etc..

A FairTax would completely abolish Federal income and corporate taxes (now both Rep and dems have nothing relating to corps to argue over -  everyone happy) as well as the Internal Revenue Service (now all Americans are happy)  and Instead institute a national sales tax that would pull in enough to cover all government programs -- taking revenue from what is spent rather than what is earned. - At least it would be a lot closer then where we are now vs how we started out as a nation. AND NONE OF US WOULD EVER HAVE TO FILE A TAX FORM EVER AGAIN!!!!!

http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/22562.html

http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer

JMHO ,
others mileage may vary
"if your old flathead doesn't leak you are out of oil"
"I have strong feelings about gun control. If there is a gun around I want to be controlling it." - Clint Eastwood
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjaman Franklin
"It's better to be hated for who you are , then loved for who your not." - Van Zant

Offline Casull

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Re: Kid Rock endorses Mitt Romney
« Reply #52 on: April 30, 2012, 07:01:52 AM »
Quote
So IG..what's your beef ..?  Corp and excize taxes too low?...and not as the Founder's envisioned..?

 
 
tm7, if it makes you feel better, remember that one-half of the payroll taxes are paid by the employer (primarily corporations).  So, the taxes paid by corporations is closer to 29% of the TOTAL federal tax revenues. 
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Offline Casull

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Re: Kid Rock endorses Mitt Romney
« Reply #53 on: May 02, 2012, 05:03:03 AM »
Quote
In fact property taxes alone are a good example of regressive taxes...just go look up what various owners are paying and compare low value properties to high value properties..

 
 
Well, tm7, like with income taxes, you seem to not understand real estate taxes.  They are an example of a flat tax.  The real estate tax is a flat percentage applied to the assessed value of the property.  If you own a $1,000,000 property, you pay ten times as much as the fellow that owns a $100,000 property.  They are NOT an example of regressive taxes.  Simply NOT true.  I dealt with real estate taxes professionally for 18 years, and if you want to argue this, you are not going to win.
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Offline Casull

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Re: Kid Rock endorses Mitt Romney
« Reply #54 on: May 02, 2012, 05:12:56 AM »
Quote
So??,,workers pay payroll taxes, too...BTW, payroll taxes area near perfect example of regressive taxation in that over a certain income ($105K..?) you escape payroll tax,

 
 
So?  You have made the argument on several occasions that social security should not be privatized, or that individuals should not be allowed to opt out, because it is such a great deal for the recipients (remember something about a lifetime annuity contract with disability benefits or some such).  Well, the workers receive those benefits, and by your own claims, it is a great bargain.  Not a regressive tax by your own argument, but a bargain for all those required to participate.  The corporations do not receive any direct benefit from it and yet they pay for half of it.  You also have argued on many occasions that corporations do not pay enough taxes, but just from that chart, it would appear that they pay nearly one-third of ALL federal taxes.  I believe that would be the "so" that you were asking about.
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Offline Casull

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Re: Kid Rock endorses Mitt Romney
« Reply #55 on: May 02, 2012, 06:36:44 AM »
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IG's chart doesn't say that at all...its says Corps pay 9% of total tax revenue..

 
 
Then you are purposely ignoring the fact that employers pay one-half of the payroll taxes.
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Offline Casull

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Re: Kid Rock endorses Mitt Romney
« Reply #56 on: May 02, 2012, 08:30:39 AM »
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Are you trying to combine payroll taxes into the general fund like a libber

 
 
No, that was you when I was talking about the flat income tax.  I was just referring to the chart.
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Re: Kid Rock endorses Mitt Romney
« Reply #57 on: May 02, 2012, 12:32:54 PM »
Kid Rock: possibly the only Michigan "musician" with less talent and more drugs in his body than Ted Nugent. Doesn't poach deer, though, as far as I know.
Just another of many reasons NOT to vote for the lying, beady-eyed, outsourcing, weasel Romney. Oh yeah: everybody does know that Romney pushed for a permanent assault-weapons ban, and a mandatory 5-day waiting period when he was gov. of Mass, don't they?

Offline Swampman

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Re: Kid Rock endorses Mitt Romney
« Reply #58 on: May 02, 2012, 01:57:00 PM »
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Anybody but Obama, who is the only other choice.

There is an entire sticky in the political discussion forum dedicated to this thought.  Lets keep it there.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline flmason

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Re: Kid Rock endorses Mitt Romney
« Reply #59 on: May 12, 2012, 04:53:15 PM »
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IG's chart doesn't say that at all...its says Corps pay 9% of total tax revenue..

 
 
Then you are purposely ignoring the fact that employers pay one-half of the payroll taxes.

Isn't it really *all* built on thw worker bees' backs?

It's like asking "who pays the house percentage out of a poker pot in the casino?"...

Some folks would say, "The winner pays it."

But step back and realize... "The *losers* pay for everything!"

The winners are just divvying up the spoils (casino and hand winner).

And so it is in the broader world.

So that leaves only one line of questioning. "Who are the losers? Why? Is that fair? What is fair?" and so on.