hard cast bullets in a H&R 45/70?

[original]

I was looking at different bullets to start reloading for the 45/70.     I was looking at the Oregon laser cast 300gr, 350 or the 405.  Does anyone have any experience with these?   Their site says they have a hardness of 21 while there is a place near me that cast their own and they say they have a hardness of 24.   Is there any difference in 3 on the harness scale?  also how fast is safe to load these to?   I will be using the 22" barrel and the 32 BC.  If I do go this route and can get them to shoot good are these bullets that people actually use for hunting?    thanks

[tacklebury]

Typically with a hardness of 21 you should be able to get up to 1600 fps or so without leading, but every rifle is different.  If you are using a non-expanding bullet, I typically like a slightly softer alloy.  Might check out some of these too:
 
http://www.montanabulletworks.com/BB_45_caliber.html
 

[jhalcott]

 Are these for hunting or target shooting? That is a very hard , linotype, alloy.Yes ,it can be used for both hunting and targets, but is harder than neccessary(in my opinion). Casting your own out of wheel weights will get an alloy near 12BHN and works quite well in both my Contender and Mauser rifle.

[BBF]

If you use it for hunting get the bullet with the largest meplat in the weight you want to shoot. Have a look at Beartooth bullets

[GH1]

I use a 405 from Missouri Cast, hardness of 18. Typically bullet fit is more critical than hardness to prevent leading. My 45-70 runs at about 1300 FPS an my .357 goes about 1600, both with no leading. My 45-70 is sized at .459" and my .357 is sized at .358".
GH1

[Larry L]

A friend bought a BC in 45-70 to do the Cowboy Shoot thing. He was loading the 405 Lasercast to 1800'ps and it was beating him to death. I ended up with the gun. It had some pretty decent leading at the last 5" of barrel. As I remember he was using Varget, about 47.0 grs I believe. I'm not into pain so I don't load anything much over 1200'ps. That's right at factory original loading and accuracy is great for the 300gr and 405 gr Lasercast bullets. I'm also using the Remington 405 and 300gr Jacketed HPs at the same velocity with equal accuracy. I've decked one hog at a little over 400 yds with the 300gr Remington and he never knew what hit him. He weighted in at a little over 350lbs. With the 45 70 you don't need velocity to kill anything, just good accuracy.

[flmason]

Just curious... is an H&R Handi Rifle in .45-70 grouped with the Trapdoors, the Rugers or something else in the strength department? How hot of a cartridge are they designed to handle?

[tacklebury]

Typically, they are considered Marlin levergun level or higher.  Some low level #1 loads have been fine in my BC.    They do start to hurt a bit though.  hehe

[shot1]

The old black powder load for the 45-70 pushed either a 500 gr bullet right at 1200 fps or the 405 gr right at 1400 fps and I would not be going out on a limb to say it probably has killed everything on the planet. Put one of those 300 to 500 gr slugs in the proper spot and it will kill. They do not kill by expansion, they kill my shooting a hole through things that are needed to live. I have shot deer in the chest with the Lyman 405 gr cast out of wheel weights which drops at 420 grs from my mold with either black powder or Accurate 5744 smokeless powder at 1400 fps and it will exit the rear end and shoot through a 6" thick tree from 111 yards. I have never recovered any 45-70 bullet from a deer. Accurate 5744 is really a good powder for cast bullets. It does not take much up to 30 grs with 300 to 350 gr, 28 grs with 405 to 420 gr, 27 gr with 500 gr for trapdoor level loads. It is accurate even though it looks like some of the powder does not burn, it does though, in the bore.

[original]

Is there a big difference between the 21 and 24 hardness?   It seems like the oregon trail bullets had pretty good reviews and I can not find any reviews on the the place that is local to me called Better Bullets from kings shooters supply.   They have the softer bullets that are 21 BNh.   Since I will not be trying to push them fast and keeping them in the lower levels would that little bit of a hardness level give me more of the softer lead performance at slower speeds or is that just splitting hairs?  I would rather try and keep my support with a local guy.   thanks

[BBF]

IMO you are splitting hair with the BH numbers. Accuracy and the shape of the nose is what makes a good hunting bullet. You want a flat nose or hollow point.
 
Gas check or not depends what is available and how fast are you pushing the "boolit".

[Blackhawker]

BARREL LEADING:
I've posted this article time after time.  Too many times people think that velocity is the primary thing that leads a barrel.  While velocity can be associated with pressure, generally it's PRESSURE or the wrong sized bullets that are the main contributing factor to cause barrel leading.

Give this article a look 
http://www.grantcunningham.com/blog_files/15e296c61415e831fecfe8fddcc1dc92-414.html

As for harness on the receiving end, as in hunting, you probably want a bullet with a very large meplat or a softer alloy of say 15ish and perhaps up to 18 if your velocity is on the higher side.  Some of the hunters out there can give you a better idea on that aspect, however.  I don't hunt much more than varmints and anything works on them.

[original]

Ok, not to keep this thing going too long.   I was searching for something softer that the others I had found and ones the wouldnt cost as much as jacketed ones.  I came across the meister bullets   http://www.meisterbullets.com/articles.asp#Bullet%20Hardness  and they claim a hardness of 14-16 and .458
another place called j&j   http://cowboybullets.fortunecity.com/    theirs are a hardness of 10 and .459

I dont care about the speed just the better performance on paper and game.   Would the lyman manuals be the best place to get the reloading info for the cast?   thanks again

[BBF]

10 is almost pure lead, that would give me concern from a rifle.
Until you try any type bullet with different powders and different velocities you won't know how they group.
 
I've got two Handis in 45-70. One of them shoots the Saeco 350 gr BB good, the other throws that same bullet all over the place regardless of powder type and power level.

[Blackhawker]

I use the Lyman manuals for most all of my reloading info.  I do cross check my loads with other manuals, however.  For cast bullets, I've found Lyman to be a good source.  You might try to find an older manual as well.  I have the 46th edition and there are a lot more loads listed in that manual  for the 45-70 for each given bullet than in the newer manual.  The only drawback on the old manual is that they don't offer much for the heavy bullets up over 450 grains.  However, they do show loads that one might add a polyfiber wad in place in order to work with a larger variety of powders.  I have found these to work well with my 500 grain bullets.

Ok, not to keep this thing going too long.   I was searching for something softer that the others I had found and ones the wouldnt cost as much as jacketed ones.  I came across the meister bullets   http://www.meisterbullets.com/articles.asp#Bullet%20Hardness  and they claim a hardness of 14-16 and .458
another place called j&j   http://cowboybullets.fortunecity.com/    theirs are a hardness of 10 and .459

I dont care about the speed just the better performance on paper and game.   Would the lyman manuals be the best place to get the reloading info for the cast?   thanks again

[original]

Thanks everyone for all the replies.   I think I have a great starting point now with the cast issue.   

[GH1]

 I have a hard time seeing the need for 405's at 1800 FPS for target shooting, or anything else for that matter. I have no doubt your buddy was being beaten to death.
 As far as leading goes, it seems to me that leading in the last few inches of the barrel is generally a lube problem and given the long barrel of the BC I'm not surprised the bullet runs out of lube before it reaches the end.
 Like shot1 I use 5744, 30 gr gives me about 1300 FPS. 5744 is a very bulky powder and was designed to dulicate original loads in older blackpowder cases. It's bulkiness does a good job of filling the cases, giving consistant ignition and reducing the possibility of double charging a case.
 Another powder that works extremely weel in black powder cases is Trail Boss. It's even more bulky than 5744, 14-16 gr are all that's needed for a 405. It's so bulky, a standard container that holds 1 lb of any other powder will only hold 9 oz of TB. 16 gr might give you 1,000 FPS or so, it's an easy shooting charge with very mild recoil. If you want to reduce the recoil even further get yourself some 150 gr Collarbutton bullets from Western Bullet Co. These pills resemble overgrown air rifle pellets and when paired with TB you'll have a very mild round.
 That's what makes the .45-70 so great. It's easy to load for and can be made to do just about anything. I'm sure you'll enjoy the bejeesus out of yours.
GH1  
 

[Swampman]

1300-1400 FPS is more than enough.  IMR-4198 is your friend.  I've found the Georgia Arms 405 grain cast shoots great.