Need caliber for Heavy Game....torn between two

[115grfmj]

Well It's just like that . I already have the 243.....now I need a caliber form heavy game. I'm really torn between the .500 S&W, and the 35 whelen.....to the point of impass. My hypothetical uses for these would be moose, brown bear, maybe big cats, africa plains game etc. I reload so the cost of the .500 would be in reach, and I really like the idea of a thumper . On the other hand I've heard a lot of great things about the whelen being great in africa and almost on par with the belted medium bore mags. Please tell me what you would get between these, and why.

[keith44]

since you mention plains game on the dark continent I humbly submit that the venerable 375 H&H be considered over the others.  Professional hunters in Africa recommend the 375 H&H over most others.  Brown bear (Kodiak, and grizzly included here) need a heavy hitter and the two you have chosen will do nicely, but again so will the 375. 


So power wise any will do.  What action type do you want??  In a standard length bolt action my vote is .35 Whelen.  If you want an excuse for a magnum Mauser action, the 375 H&H would be my choice.  A lever gun might be found for the .500, but I am not sure of that, I know single shots are chambered for the .500, but I would want at least a double rifle for heavy game, and dangerous game as well (Bears).


So for me I would take the .35 Whelen, but if I found a .375 while looking I'd take that instead.  The .500 just does not make my list of possibles.


enjoy the search, it's part of the fun

[RPRNY]

http://35whelen.blogspot.com/

35 Whelen. An American Original and designed for exactly what you are talking about. Overlooked, Misunderstood and Vastly Underrated. I have nothing against 500 S&W, but 35 Whelen is a proper rifle round. If you were to expand your search beyond these two options, I believe there would be substantial advocacy for the 45-70.

[cwlongshot]

To my mind the only reason for considering the 500 would be defensive extremely close range hunting. It's bullets will have rainbow trajectory and shed their energy/velocity quite rapidly making range estimation and bullet placement needlessly difficult at even medium range.

The 35 Whelen is a excellent caliber, made even better if cut as a Brown/Whelen !
Handloaded to its full potential, it's a real powerhouse just behind the 375 H&H with factory loads. Every bit equil to a couple classic and well respected African calibers, like the 9.3X74 and 9.3X64 calibers.

There is another member here who either hunts Africa or does so vicariously thru his son. But does so with a H&R single shot.

Of your two choices, my choice is hands down the 35 Whelen.
To look at different calibers and if you felt you needed larger diameter I would advise you to go with the 45/70 with hand loads. It will do anything the 500 claimed to only with ballistic ally superior bullets.

CW

[44 Man]

Were I going for 'sporting' purposes, I'd like a Handi in .280, or maybe 30-06.  There are lots of tough bullets designed for the job at hand and they would do nicely.  Were it 'dangerous' game, I'd leave the Handi home and opt for a good bolt action in those calibers or a .338 Win mag, but my personal preference is to get away from bolt actions when possible.  So I'd likely choose a Marlin lever in 45-70 to carry when I had to leave the Handi home.  This is another one of those times when an infinite number of calibers might do.  As long as it has a big case and tough bullets available for it, everything beyond that is just personal preference.  44 Man

[eye shot]

.444M might be good for plains game and most of the others.

[AtlLaw]

I really like the idea of a thumper

I know you said "between these,"    hi-ebber, and day always be a hi-ebber, if you really like a "thumper," you be talkin a 45-120 or 499 Hubel!      Not some pissy little 500 S&W!   
 
But, of the two you mentioned, and I have and like both, the 35 is a lot more flexable!   

[cwlongshot]

.444M might be good for plains game and most of the others.

I was going to suggest it too as it has adaquite bore diameter , plenty of case cap for good horse power but is saddled with poor bullets for truly big heavy game.

Yes on plains game it would do well. But with tougher hides on african game, you really need tougher bullets than are offered for the big44. (Remember most are made for the 44 mag revolver round) Now thinking about that, Barnes may offer a couple.

CW

[LONGTOM]

Since this is an H&R forum, and from the two calibers he has mentioned I would assume he is talking Handi Rifles.
Of the two he listed I would take the 35 Whelen only because he said plains game which may be at some distance beyond what the 500 can handle.
With the right bullets it will do the job on all the animals he mentioned, even the big cats.
Don't get me wrong, I love a big bullet in big bores but the 35 does have a few advantages, namely, range!
Now that .499HE might change things a little.
Still doesn't have the range of the 35 but what a bullet.
But, that set up wasn't an option.
 
 
LONGTOM

[quickdtoo]

Yupper, 35 Whelen all the way, if a 30-06 Handi will work, the Whelen will work even better!!  FWIW, For a big bore, I'd take a 45-70 over the 500S&W any day. 

Tim

30-06 Handi in Africa!!

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/luposafaris1.html

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/luposafaris2.html

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/luposafaris3.html

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/luposafaris4.html

[mcwoodduck]

Plains game is Plains game and almost anything can work,
I have not been to Africa yet abut have read a lot about it.
The one thing that comes up is caliber Minimums for any of the big 5.  So if cats are on your list check with your outfitter and see what the mins are in the country you plan to hunt.
Of the two I think 35 Wh is more versital and can be used in a wider variety of loads and hunting situations an enven a round nose bullet will fly flat compared to the flat nose 500.
 
As others have said the 375 H&H would be my choice as a 1 gun for Africa.
It is minimum for most of the big 6 in most countres and a used Sako, CZ, Winchester, Ruger, or Remington bolt gun will not break the bank. 
You may want ot invest in a few books before heading to the gun shop.
Safari by Peter Capstick
Buffalo, By Craig Bottington
These will talk about rifles and calibers.
 
As far as Moose and Bear and other larger woodland
American Hunting Rifles by Boddington talks about rifles and calibers for each type of hunting and game as well as the caliber in general.
 

[geartow]

I had never thought about the 35 Whelen before but after reading this post and reveiwing a ballistics chart I may need one. I thought I had my bases covered but after the chart review it is apperant I am lacking .

[streak]

.35 Whelen gets my vote! Good range of bullet selection both in factory and reloading scenario.
Hard pounding round with top performance and good range!

[r29l20]

.35 gets my vote as well.

[Sourdough]

I often make recommendations for people coming to Alaska.  Usually older Gentlemen, who can afford anything they want.  Most do not want, or can not stand the massive recoil of the 373H&H.  Also the .375 has a trajectory like a rainbow, which is rediculious for such a heavy kicker.  I usually recommend the .35 Whelen, and the 45-70.  Both cartridges are availiable in most locations.  Both will handle anything in Alaska, and a lot of things in Africa. 

[115grfmj]

Thank you Gentlemen for all the replies......as far as rifle is concerned it will be the handi. I don't consider a single shot to be that much of a disadvantage, on game since most african hunts (especially dangerous game) have a PH and trackers with large bore backups. Also this is really a cross my fingers and hope the Wife will let me one day proposition.....know what I mean!   The whelen seems to have a great rep. so I will probably get one.... the other hand I've heard the .500 is balistically similar to the great old elephant caliber 450 nitro express. Hmm......maybe I should get both   I thought I MIGHT be able to resist the urge to start collecting barrels in every caliber....

[twoshooter]

I have only a few ideas to mention. #1 the 35 Whelan in a handi. .....FTF possibly. On dangerous game, or even just expensive hunt. #2, I have heard that 375 is a minimum caliber in many countries in Africa...... 35 would be illegal. The 500 would pass.
  True, in a bolt, the Whelan is a much better long range gun, no question, but up close, within 100 yards, I would take the 500.
   I cannot swallow the 1 gun scenario, especially since you can have an extra barrel here for about $130 average. In this case I would get a 35, use the 225 gr loads, put a scope on it, and get a ghost ring peep and large fiber optic front sight on the 500. And for the price of a decent bolt you could probably also pick up a 280 barrel which @ 26" will crank out 160 gr range bullets at a top velocity.

[mcwoodduck]

I have only a few ideas to mention. #1 the 35 Whelan in a handi. .....FTF possibly. On dangerous game, or even just expensive hunt. #2, I have heard that 375 is a minimum caliber in many countries in Africa...... 35 would be illegal. The 500 would pass.
  True, in a bolt, the Whelan is a much better long range gun, no question, but up close, within 100 yards, I would take the 500.
   I cannot swallow the 1 gun scenario, especially since you can have an extra barrel here for about $130 average. In this case I would get a 35, use the 225 gr loads, put a scope on it, and get a ghost ring peep and large fiber optic front sight on the 500. And for the price of a decent bolt you could probably also pick up a 280 barrel which @ 26" will crank out 160 gr range bullets at a top velocity.

Some of the calibers aslo have a power factor for DG and the 500 may not make it.  Again check with your outfitter.
 

[AtlLaw]

I've heard the .500 is balistically similar to the great old elephant caliber 450 nitro express.

Say what!?      I dunno who you been talking to...
 
Don't get me started... 
 

I thought I MIGHT be able to resist the urge to start collecting barrels in every caliber....

Ahh, I see... the symptoms are just beginning to show!      Stick around boy, you'll be making shims with me before you know it!   
 
A barrel in every caliber he says!      Ain't that the cutest thing!   

[quickdtoo]

I've heard the .500 is balistically similar to the great old elephant caliber 450 nitro express.

The 450 NE would push a 480gr bullet at 2150fps, the 500 S&W Handi won't do that, or even close, 440gr @ 1947fps or 500gr @1546fps is as close at it gets, and that's at the muzzle, the .45 cal 450NE bullet maintains it's energy better than a .50 cal.

Tim

http://www.lone-star-armory.com/library/Ballistics-Classic-Cartridges.pdf

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_1_53/ai_n16866654/pg_2/?tag=content;col1

[Brewster]

Have the FTF issues with the 35 Whelen been id'd and pretty much addressed?

[Dixie Dude]

Plains game in Africa do not require a 375 HH, only the large dangerous game, like cape buffalo, elephant, rino, etc, IF you can afford the permit.  Plains game is taken with .308, 30-06, etc. 

[quickdtoo]

Have the FTF issues with the 35 Whelen been id'd and pretty much addressed?

A long time ago, bad transfer bars. 

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,216635.msg1099172152.html#msg1099172152

[Brewster]

I knew about the service notice of certain Handi's in 2010 that involved the transfer bar, but had also heard about FTF's in other weapons of the same caliber.

[keith44]

Well It's just like that . I already have the 243.....now I need a caliber form heavy game. I'm really torn between the .500 S&W, and the 35 whelen.....to the point of impass. My hypothetical uses for these would be moose, brown bear, maybe big cats, africa plains game etc. I reload so the cost of the .500 would be in reach, and I really like the idea of a thumper . On the other hand I've heard a lot of great things about the whelen being great in africa and almost on par with the belted medium bore mags. Please tell me what you would get between these, and why.

Big cats, and brown bear, combined with plains game.  I want as big a thump as I can hold.  The .375 is not painful to shoot in an 8 or 9 pound rifle, the .35 Whelen has plenty of thump for bear, and will likely do fine on plains game, but big cats seem to have my attention here.  It may be due to my lack of personal experience with them, but thinking about going after a Lion with a single shot Handi chambered for a .35 Whelen just does not sit well in my little thinker. 

[quickdtoo]

An internet search will reveal the 35 Whelen with the right bullet is fine for lion over bait.

Tim

http://www.google.com/search?q=35+whelen+lion+over+bait&hl=en&newwindow=1&rlz=1T4GGHP_en___US445&prmd=imvns&ei=QKVXT6zQK-aiiQLkjtGjCw&start=10&sa=N&biw=1522&bih=678

[Singlebarrel]

Not to get too far off subject here, but how is recoil in a 35 Wheelen Handi? 

[quickdtoo]

From the FAQs: HANDIRIFLE RECOIL by Caliber

[cwlongshot]

Keith,
 Paper ballistics being what they are. If you do cross check them you will find that the 35 Whelen reall stacks up well!

As for worrying about the big cats, none are known to have such a tenacity for life as some others. It's simply what we know they are capable of. I too like the idea of more than is needed as for caliber. BUT the Whelen is more than adaquite for this task. I have a very good friend who hunts Africa yearly almost and he has many cats under his belt. One of his favorites is a English double in 9.3x74r. It's a 286g bullet about 2400fps... Sound fermilular?

This is a well liked and highly regarded caliber for this kind of hunting in Africa. Kinda falling aside in the wake of bolt guns but still highly respected by anyone taking the time to research it.


A big male will go nearly 600 and females 400. Roughly the size of elk or med plains game. The lion is a thin skinned animal. Many people use 375/458/460/505 because they are also after one of the other "big five" as well and one rifle is what they have. The extra margins is calming to them. But anyone who knows will take a well placed shot form even a 30/06 with good bullets to a flinching trigger jerk from a guy with a 505 Gibbs that Might hit the vitals. Leapards are more dangerous than the big Lion and Tigers have worse attitudes out of all of them. Even our own Cougar has little real fear of you or I and many a hunter has found killing one in a tree under dogs with a 22 Mag completely humanize and quick. It's a accurately placed shot that makes all the difference!

CW

[keith44]

Oh I agree, it's just the comfort factor of the larger shell casing and the slightly larger bullet.  and yes the 286 grain .366 diameter bullet traveling at 2,400 fps sounds alot like a 285 grainer moving out at 2,300 to 2,400 fps.