Author Topic: Need caliber for Heavy Game....torn between two (Read 1844 times)

Swampman · « **Reply #30 on:** March 07, 2012, 09:39:02 AM »

Everybody needs a .45-70.

Darreld Walton · « **Reply #31 on:** March 07, 2012, 11:27:08 AM »

In the RIGHT rifle, the .375 H&H has got to have your serious consideration. With a 235 gr. bullet at 'around' 2800 fps, it acts like a 'super' .270, and if you take the time to study the trajectory tables for the 260-270 gr. bullets at 2600 fps, you'll find it's HARDLY a rainbow trajectory. Throw in 300 gr. and heavier solids, and the rifle is at the very least adequate for the really big stuff. Load the 220 gr. Hornady flat point at 1800-2000 fps, and you duplicate the .375 Winchester, or load the bejeebers out of it if you want to splat the clockwork of a big cat or wolf all over the countryside, something that the 220 Hornady spire point, or the 235 Speer will also do well. One thing I have found about the .375 is that the heavier the bullet, the less 'felt' recoil I perceive. The lighter bullets beat me up about as bad as a .338 Winchester.
There are three other rounds that you should at least think about. They are the .338 Winchester, 300 Winchester, 458 Winchester. On this continent, you'd be really well served with a good .338 and premium bullets. I packed a .300 Winchester in a stainless controlled feed M70 on my trips to Alaska, and didn't feel undergunned, BUT, I also didn't piss off a bear, either. The .458 is actually more of a stopper, but what on ANY continent is going to argue with it? It's downsides are HEAVY recoil, and trajectory that makes it suitable for shots inside 200 yards.
Using a .500 for any of the critters you have in mind would be more of a stunt. Not saying it doesn't have it's uses. I just wouldn't carry one as a primary weapon. It makes a helluva setup in a paddle holster that's out of the way when you're in a salmon stream with a rod in your hands and a fish on, or boning out a moose with your rifle against a tree 30 feet away.
I really, really, really like my .35 Whelens a LOT. However, you ain't gonna find ammunition for it in Resume Speed, Yukon Territory, if your pannier falls off the suburban on the way up the Alcan! You MIGHT find a box in Whitehorse, but more likely, it'd mean a trip into Delta Junction or Fairbanks. If your ammo stays on the plane, and you're on the ground on the Dark Continent, where ya gonna find .35 Whelen, or for that matter, .45-70?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #32 on:** March 07, 2012, 11:39:10 AM »

Let's keep the discussion on topic fellas, magnum rifle chamberings are not applicable to the Handi which the OP has clearly stated he wants.

Tim

Quote from: 115grfmj on March 06, 2012, 02:22:56 PM

Thank you Gentlemen for all the replies......as far as rifle is concerned it will be the handi. I don't consider a single shot to be that much of a disadvantage, on game since most african hunts (especially dangerous game) have a PH and trackers with large bore backups. Also this is really a cross my fingers and hope the Wife will let me one day proposition.....know what I mean! The whelen seems to have a great rep. so I will probably get one.... the other hand I've heard the .500 is balistically similar to the great old elephant caliber 450 nitro express. Hmm......maybe I should get both I thought I MIGHT be able to resist the urge to start collecting barrels in every caliber....

swb311 · « **Reply #33 on:** March 07, 2012, 01:36:29 PM »

I got excited and searched H&R's barrel page when I saw someone mention .375 H&H

I would go for the .35 or look at .444marlin or if you reload, maybe 45-70.

I really don't see a use for 500S&W in a rifle that can chamber .444 and 45-70.

Couger · « **Reply #34 on:** March 07, 2012, 05:54:24 PM »

Quote from: 115grfmj

Well It's just like that $:-\$ . I already have the 243.....now I need a caliber form heavy game. I'm really torn between the .500 S&W, and the 35 whelen.....to the point of impass. My hypothetical uses for these would be moose, brown bear, maybe big cats, africa plains game etc. I reload so the cost of the .500 would be in reach, and I really like the idea of a thumper . On the other hand I've heard a lot of great things about the whelen being great in africa and almost on par with the belted medium bore mags. Please tell me what you would get between these, and why.

Twas me I would get the Whelen! And modify it if I later decided it was necessary. .500S&W is too unique that I'd want to carry it to Africa.

Another possible alternative would be to get a heavy barrel .308 and have it rebored/rechambered to 9.3X62!

Swampman · « **Reply #35 on:** March 07, 2012, 11:37:27 PM »

The Whelen has too many headspace issues for me to trust it.

Couger · « **Reply #36 on:** March 08, 2012, 01:09:42 AM »

Quote from: Swampman

The Whelen has too many headspace issues for me to trust it.

Sometimes that's indeed the case with the Whelen brass, altho the 9.3X62 is in the same [cartridge] class as the Whelen but much more popular in Africa than the Whelen.

Of course a stoutly loaded .30/06 with 200 grain Partitions is no slouch either.

Mad Dog · « **Reply #37 on:** March 08, 2012, 01:39:28 AM »

Well, guess I'll weigh in on this. Been to Africa, twice. The 1st trip was to RSA, in 2008, for plains game with my son and friends. My son used a .30-06 Handi Rifle, which quick posted the link, to the story. I used a 45-70, albeit in a Marlin 1895 Guide Gun, not a handi. Both calibers handled the plains game we hunted, which included kudu, gemsbok, blue wildebeast, zebra, and other smaller critters. The largest of these were in the 650-700lb. range. Either caliber will handle all of the african plains game, including eland which can get up to 2,000lb. Remember, shot placement is the key. I know little about the whelen, but would suggest the .45-70, primarily for lower pressures in the handi.

Not that a 45-70 wouldn't work on some of the dangerous game, but in most places it's illegal. When my son and I went on our second trip, this last summer, it was for tuskless elephant, hippo, and cape buff. We both elected to take .375 H&H mag, in Ruger no. 1s. To stay on topic, that's all I'll say about that. Lastly, if I were going to pick two cartridges, that come in a handi rifle, that will almost do it all, it would be tha .30-06 and .45-70.

Mad Dog

oldsoldja · « **Reply #38 on:** March 08, 2012, 11:49:11 AM »

number 4 was very interesting.

Quote from: quickdtoo on March 06, 2012, 09:35:57 AM

Yupper, 35 Whelen all the way, if a 30-06 Handi will work, the Whelen will work even better!! FWIW, For a big bore, I'd take a 45-70 over the 500S&W any day.

Tim

30-06 Handi in Africa!!

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/luposafaris1.html

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/luposafaris2.html

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/luposafaris3.html

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/luposafaris4.html

LONGTOM · « **Reply #39 on:** March 08, 2012, 02:45:32 PM »

Once your 35 brass has been shot and reloaded (provided you don't full lengh resize it) the head space problem seems to go away.
I have never had a FTF out of reloaded 35 Whelen with the brass that was shot in that barrel and just neck sized.

LONGTOM

3 feathers · « **Reply #40 on:** March 08, 2012, 03:06:39 PM »

I have a Ruger #1 in 450/400 NE and would take it moose or timber elk hunting, May be better off with a repeater for big bear or Africa but I will never be able to afford hunting that type game anyway.

twoshooter · « **Reply #41 on:** March 08, 2012, 03:29:03 PM »

When you think cats, you have to think differently, it is not about a killing shot, it is about an anchor shot. I have never shot a lion, but I have shot a bunch of feral housecats. Even a headshot with a 22 mag does not do them in instantly, they have nerve spasms, like a decapitated chicken, they can jump, kick and claw for 15- 20 seconds, sometimes more. If I were to be in tall grass or brush where a shot could be 30 yards, just how long do you think it takes a lion to cover 30 yards? I will tell you it is easier to kill a mature whitetail than a 10 pound tomcat.
AS far as plains game, the 35 should be great I agree.
For a Moose, caribou,black timber elk, or even bear, I would still take a 500. I have seen too many archery shows where they were close enough to poke with a stick, and usually in thick stuff, so range is not a real factor. It is one reason why Marlin's guide gun does so well in Alaska.....

parkergunshop · « **Reply #42 on:** March 09, 2012, 05:20:02 AM »

Twoshooter,
I agree for dangerous game a repeating firearm is the way to go. I would hate to have to depend on someone else to save my hide if my first shot did not drop the animal.
That is why I have a 45/70 Ruger No 1, but also four shot .375 H&H and .458 Winchester Mags. The .35 Whelen is a fine round and up to snuff on anything in North America in a repeater, but not good for Grizzlies in thick cover in a single shot or an all around African round.
The comment about headspace issues in the .35 Whelen is nonsense if you know how to handload and fireform brass in a properly chambered firearm. A dimwhit can mess anything up however and give a bad reputation to excellent rounds, like the .35 Whelen.
I would use my Ruger No 1. on anything but Grizzlies in North America and feel comfortable with my handloads which are just shy of .458 Winchester energies. Recoil with the 45/70 in a light weight single shot can be pretty awful with some handloads. In a single shot the 45/70 is still hard to beat as it was in the 1870's when it first came out.
In the gun we are talking about though, the .35 Whelen all the way as it is much more flexible. But all and all I still would rather have a rimmed or belted case in a single shot for sure fire extraction function.

yellowtail3 · « **Reply #43 on:** March 09, 2012, 09:22:05 AM »

Are you guys actually thinking that there are some animals too big for my 30-30?

I don't buy it. If one of you will pay my way to Africa or Alaska, I'll prove it

hunter63 · « **Reply #44 on:** March 09, 2012, 10:27:05 AM »

.500 S&W is just a big pistol round.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.500_S%26W_Magnum

cwlongshot · « **Reply #45 on:** March 09, 2012, 03:01:36 PM »

Quote from: yellowtail3 on March 09, 2012, 09:22:05 AM

Are you guys actually thinking that there are some animals too big for my 30-30?

I don't buy it. If one of you will pay my way to Africa or Alaska, I'll prove it

I would NEVER take such a bet!!! I cannot think of a "prey" animal walking this planet you could not humainely harvest with a well aimed/placed shot.
Its neither ideal or optimal, but you can bet your last dollar it will work!

CW

ihookem · « **Reply #46 on:** March 10, 2012, 07:21:47 AM »

35-06 is a poor mans magnum. More power than a 300 win. I think.

Empty Quiver · « **Reply #47 on:** March 10, 2012, 07:39:13 AM »

I would decide how far I intended to shoot and let that be your guide.

Bowhunters have limited themselves to about 35 yards and are happy enough with the choice. It limits opportunities though. I have a hard time believing you can kill something with one that cannot be killed with the other.

keith44 · « **Reply #48 on:** March 10, 2012, 12:19:12 PM »

Quote from: Empty Quiver on March 10, 2012, 07:39:13 AM

...

I have a hard time believing you can kill something with one that cannot be killed with the other.

With a dangerous game rifle it is not a matter of killing, but rather STOPPING the animal. Rage and sheer size combined with close quarters, or stalking wounded game make the larger thumpers more desireable, in certain circumstances.

Empty Quiver · « **Reply #49 on:** March 10, 2012, 09:16:49 PM »

Quote from: keith44 on March 10, 2012, 12:19:12 PM

Quote from: Empty Quiver on March 10, 2012, 07:39:13 AM
...

I have a hard time believing you can kill something with one that cannot be killed with the other.

With a dangerous game rifle it is not a matter of killing, but rather STOPPING the animal. Rage and sheer size combined with close quarters, or stalking wounded game make the larger thumpers more desireable, in certain circumstances.

Were that my concern I certainly would not look to a hot pistol round. I would likely find a platform that would support a magnum round and not fret over it any longer. But it ain't me is it?

Swampman · « **Reply #50 on:** March 10, 2012, 10:56:07 PM »

Everything on the planet has been cleanly harvested with the .44 Magnum out of a pistol. If you can stand your ground and shoot well most of those mentioned will work fine. For me it would have to be a rimmed cartridge because IMO the rimless cartridges aren't reliable enough.