.357 FTX bullets at XTP max. velocities

[jackddavis]

I received a box of 140 gr. FTX bullets as a gift and found that published reloading data calls for reduced powder charges to obtain the correct COL. In a Handi, this doesn't make sense to me. Why not use full powder charges and seat the bullet to the XTP depth? Loading singly, there are no recoil or feeding problems to contend with, so no reason to seat to the cannelure.
 
18 gr. of IMR4227 (XTP data) makes more sense to me than 13 gr. of IMR4227 behind the FTX 140 gr. in the Handi. (hodgden data)
 
Am I wrong?

[quickdtoo]

Sounds like a good varmint load, certainly way too fast for the 140gr FTX on anything bigger, Hornady lists it as a pistol bullet with a maximum muzzle velocity of 1600fps, data goes to 1650fps in their 357mag rifle data, they don't list it for use in the 14" TC Contender 357 Max data, just the 140gr XTP and bigger. FWIW, the 140gr FTX factory ammo averaged 1763fps 1811fps(CRS!  ) in my 357 Mag Handi.

As to the mechanics of swapping bullets, as long as you don't seat the base of the bullet any deeper than the original bullet data and use start data, there shouldn't be any problem, then the only difference is the bearing surface of the bullet which with start data shouldn't be a problem, swapping bullets and using an existing load wouldn't be a good idea tho.

Tim

 http://www.hornady.com/assets/files/ftx_load_data/357MagFTXRifle.pdf

[OSOK]

I too received some .357 140 gr. FTX bullets during the holidays. In my Max I have the bullet seated about 1/8" into the case. It's not anywhere near the rifling, I could seat it out further, I just don't feel like they are very secure any further out. I load my Max with H110, still working up a load. Haven't shot any across the chrony yet, but they sure seem fast! I'm going to shoot some milk jugs and see which is more explosive, it or the 158 gr. Remington JHP.
I can't wait to catch an armadillo in the yard, I bet it'll be instant stew meat!

[jackddavis]

There is a difference in the bullet nose, so could interfere with rifling lands in some SS rifles, I suppose, but it does not touch the lands in my Handi.
 
As far as velocity goes, it seems to me that the velocity limitations are not due to bullet construction, but is due to the limited powder when it is seated to the cannelure...the case is full and no more can be squeezed in. When seated to the XTP depth, you can get a full max. load, whatever that may be.

[quickdtoo]

As far as velocity goes, it seems to me that the velocity limitations are not due to bullet construction, but is due to the limited powder when it is seated to the cannelure...the case is full and no more can be squeezed in. When seated to the XTP depth, you can get a full max. load, whatever that may be.

If that were true, they would recommend trimming the brass as they do for the 357mag, they list 180gr and 200gr spitzers in their TC Maxi data. As I stated before, Hornady's recommended muzzle velocity range for the 140gr FTX is 850 to a maximum of 1600fps, see page 117 of their 8th manual. You can confirm it by contacting Hornady.

Tim

http://www.hornady.com/contact_us

Please keep in mind that you’ll need to trim your cases shorter than
normal when loading FTX® bullets. This allows you to maintain the correct
cartridge overall length, which is critical to function in both lever guns
and revolvers.

[quickdtoo]

I don't think we're are on the same page here, you mentioned "max" in your subject, I thought you meant 357 Maximum as opposed to 357 Magnum.  But you don't need to seat the FTX to the cannelure since it doesn't need to be crimped in a Handi as it does in a revolver or levergun, so you should be good to go seating the bullet so the base is the same depth as the XTP and disregarding COL.

Tim

[yukondog]

I bought a box for the fun of it, the best accuracy I get is from 360 DW in the max using H-110, I haven't ran them across the chrony yet but using the same grn. in the max with a 180 xtp I'm getting 1850 fps so they should be zipping right along, I think a load/ range trip with the chrony is in order.

[jackddavis]

I did some testing. First I seated the 140 gr. FTX as shallow as I dared so that it would still hold the bullet firm. That depth was ~1/8". This, in a case trimmed to 1.28" with Lee case trimmer, gave me a COL of 1.875". Than I chambered this dummy cartridge in my Handi to see if it was too long. It wasn't. It does not touch the rifling lands and chambers easily and extracts just like any other standard .357 cartridge.
 
Then I loaded three rounds, one at a time in the same case.
 
FTX 140 gr. w/1.875 COL, primer CCI 500.

1st round IMR4227, 17.1 gr. No signs of excess pressure.

2nd round IMR4227, 18.5 gr. No signs of excess pressure.

3rd round IMR42276, 20 gr. Very slight flattening of primer. No other adverse signs noted. This load was slightly compressed.

All test cartridges were loaded in the same case. I did throw several charges and weigh them. They averaged 20 gr. with 20.1 max. and 19.8 min. in my LEE 1000 Turret loader. I did not weigh the actual test charge.
 
This is ~ 2 gr more than the maximum charge for XTP 140 gr on Hodgden's website.
 


 

[jackddavis]

As far as velocity goes, it seems to me that the velocity limitations are not due to bullet construction, but is due to the limited powder when it is seated to the cannelure...the case is full and no more can be squeezed in. When seated to the XTP depth, you can get a full max. load, whatever that may be.

As I stated before, Hornady's recommended muzzle velocity range for the 140gr FTX is 850 to a maximum of 1600fps, see page 117 of their 8th manual. You can confirm it by contacting Hornady.

Tim

http://www.hornady.com/contact_us

Please keep in mind that you’ll need to trim your cases shorter than
normal when loading FTX® bullets. This allows you to maintain the correct
cartridge overall length, which is critical to function in both lever guns
and revolvers.

I'm referring to a .357 magnum cartridge, maximum loads, not .357 Maximum. Can you copy that page in the manual you mentioned and post it here for all to see. I don't have it and I find no mention of velocity limits on their website loading data....which if there were limits...you'd think they would mention it.
 
The passage you quoted from their website about trimming cases to 1.24" is simply to comply with COL for proper operation of lever guns and revolvers. And the velocity limits are obviously because you simply can't stuff any more powder in a short case with a bullet seated that deep. I now....I tried. I'm talking single shot Handi Rifle. But if there really is a limit to the recommended velocity of the 140 gr. FTX, I'd certainly be interested in knowing that and why.
 
Researching, I found this. Read down the page near the bottom. http://www.gandermountain.com/modperl/product/details.cgi?i=423322&pdesc=Hornady_FTX_Bullets_357_140_grain

[quickdtoo]

I sent an email to Hornady.

Tim

From: Hornady Manufacturing, Inc [mailto:webmaster@hornady.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 10:02 PM
To: tech
Subject: "Technical Inquiries" Contact from Tim

This is a response sent by Tim using the feedback form on the website. The details of the message follow below:
 Subject:    Technical Inquiries
First Name:    Tim
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Comments:
Can you tell me what the recommended maximum impact or muzzle velocity is for the .357" 140gr FTX?

Thanks,

Tim


Tim the range is from 850 fps to 1600 fps. thanks

[cudatruck]

sounds like someone need to do some expansion testing of their own with this bullet. Fire this bullet into a stack of milk jugs filled with water and recover the bullet. All expanding bullets have a range of impact velocity. too slow and they don't expand and usually over penetrate. too fasst and they over expand and give unsatisfactory penetration. But you actually have to test for yourself to see what speeds give you the results you want. You could probably launch this bullet at 4000 fps and it would be fine until it hit something! also would be interesting to put layers of denim or bathtowels or even better leather in front of the milk jugs to see how that changes things. Let us know what you find.

[jackddavis]

I did write to Hornady, asking the question differently, asking what velocities it could be loaded to in a single shot rifle without OAL length constrictions. No reply yet.
 
I was wondering what the throat depth of my rifle was. I dropped a bullet into the chamber, letting it rest on the land, then measured from the base of the bullet to the back of the chamber. It is a full 1/4" deeper than the 1.875 OAL of my handloaded cartridge.....a full 1/4" bullet jump, even with this long cartridge.
 
I bought this rifle used (like new) from Cabela's. I'm now wondering if it hasn't been reamed to .357 Maximum. I think I'll make a chamber cast with lead to see what this rifle is chambered for.

[quickdtoo]

Deep throated 357 Mags have been discussed many times, those that rechamber to Maxi with a PTG rifle reamer will attest that accuracy is definitely improved whether shooting 38 Special, 357 Magnum, 360 DW or 357 Maximum ammo even tho the actual freebore isn't changed much, the leade to the lands is cut differently, see the 357 Maxi info in the reamer sticky.

Tim

 http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,125780.msg1098446320.html#msg1098446320

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/734226/ptg-solid-pilot-chamber-finish-reamer-357-maximum?productNumber=734226

Excellent reamer will easily re-chamber a 357 Mag to a Maximum. True 6 deg ramp. You can chamber completely or stop when your target / hunting load touches the bore. I have re-chambered 3 Handi Rifles with this reamer and all three shoot excellent groups.

[jackddavis]

Thanks for the info. I now don't believe it is reamed to .357 Maximum. The chamber tapers down to bullet diameter at just over 1.3". Then rifling starts way out from there. It just has a very long throat. Actually, the long cartridge I'm playing with is a better fit in this chamber than the SAAMI OAL.
 
Still no reply from Hornady, but I did find, on Hornady's site at http://www.hornady.com/team-hornady/scrapbook/35-rem-ftx-caribou-hunt-mark a story from a man who loaded the 140 gr. FTX bullets in his .35 Remington and brought down a caribou at over 200 yds (according to his story). I'm betting the Muzzle velocity of that bullet was well over 2000 fps although he doesn't say.
 
Also, on their site at http://www.hornady.com/bullets scroll down to the FTX logo. This seems to contradict the email posted.
 
Very confusing. Even if they consider the FTX 140 gr. to be a handgun bullet, it's still listed at 800-2100 fps and 2100 fps MV is about where I think this load should be.
 
 

FTX® The Flex Tip design makes the FTX safe in all tubular magazines and delivers controlled expansion across a broad range of velocities. The FTX also delivers the flattest trajectories EVER from lever guns. More about FTX Rifle products... More about FTX Handgun products...   Rapid, controlled expansion with deep penetration. Recommended muzzle velocity range: Handgun 800 to 2100 fps Recommended muzzle velocity range: Rifle 1800 to 3000 fps.

[quickdtoo]

Still no reply from Hornady, but I did find, on Hornady's site at http://www.hornady.com/team-hornady/scrapbook/35-rem-ftx-caribou-hunt-mark a story from a man who loaded the 140 gr. FTX bullets in his .35 Remington and brought down a caribou at over 200 yds (according to his story). I'm betting the Muzzle velocity of that bullet was well over 2000 fps although he doesn't say.  

Don't count on it, it's actually right in the recommended velocity range, with a MV of 2600fps, at 200yds it's down to 1626fps and just 822lbs energy, it's got the BC of a brick!  The problem will be over expansion at closer ranges where it's working outside it's intended velocity range, it's a pistol bullet, not meant for rifle velocities, that's why they don't list rifle data for it above 1650fps. If you want to use a 140gr bullet, use the 140gr XTP, it has a slightly better BC of .169 compared to .160 for the FTX, and rifle data goes to 1900fps from their 16" barrel.
 
Tim

http://www.hornady.com/cgi-bin/ball10.cgi?firearm=Rifle&desc=35+Remington+140gr+FTX&wght=140&coef=.160&vel=2600&sight=1.5&temp=59&barom=29.53&zero=0&wspd=0&calcbutton=Calculate

http://www.hornady.com/store/38-Cal-.357-140-gr-HP-XTP/

http://www.hornady.com/store/38-Cal-.357-158-gr-HP-XTP/

 

[jackddavis]

OK, Tim. Which one of us is most confused? I did say MUZZLE VELOCITY well over 2000 fps. Then you said "don't count on it" then upped it to MV 2600 fps. Then talked about IMPACT velocity. We can't be talking about both in the same breath as being one and the same. Can we? In my rifle I'm estimating a MV of around 2100 fps. The down range velocity is going to be much different, as you point out. Your question to Hornady mentioned both "impact or muzzle velocity" and Hornady's reply didn't specify whether he was referring to impact or MV. Thus the question and answer were confusing to me.
 
I'm looking for a good hunting load and in this load, I'm expecting ~2100 fps MV. Hunting ranges in my neck of the woods range in the neighborhood of 50-150 yds. The impact velocity at a median range of 100 yds is, according to my software....1638 fps.
 
I think we are on the same page...just confusing MV and impact velocities. They are not one and the same thing. What I'm confused about is whether Hornady's answer to you is MV or impact velocity as your question to them mentioned both and their answer is brief and ambiguous.

[quickdtoo]

Sorry for the confusion on my part, my point is at muzzle velocities over their velocity range that any close shots will cause the bullet to expand violently like a varmint bullet would, it would just depend on the range you anticipate using it. I believe their range of muzzle velocities is the working range that it will have good terminal performance, you'll have to confirm that with them, but I think anything over 1600fps MV may be way too much for the bullet to be reliable on a shoulder shot, but may work just fine on a behind the shoulder hit. 

Tim

http://www.hornady.com/ballistics-resource/ballistics-calculator

[jackddavis]

I'm with you now, Tim. Still no reply from Hornady....but then it is Saturday.

[jackddavis]

A reply from Hornady:
 
"The Hornady item #35745 .38 cal. [.357" dia.] 140 gr. FTX bullet is designed for the .357 Magnum cartridge and in the Hornady reloading manual we are calling for the maximum velocity of 1600 fps muzzle, but, we have a cushion of around 2000 fps.

 

From: Hornady Manufacturing, Inc [mailto:webmaster@hornady.com]
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2012 10:46 AM
To: tech
Subject: "Technical Inquiries" Contact from Jack Davis

  This is a response sent by Jack Davis using the feedback form on the website. The details of the message follow below:
 

Subject:	Technical Inquiries
First Name:	Jack
Last Name:	Davis
Email:
Address1:
Address2:
City:	Elmira
State:	OR
Postal Code:	97437
Country:	United States
Phone:
	Comments: I'm reloading for a .357 magnum Handi Rifle and since it is a single shot, I'm not constrained by COL for a revolver or lever gun. I've found that with the FTX 140 gr., by seating the FTX shallow, I can push the 140 gr. FTX well in excess of 2000 fps. The COL is 1.875. Signs of excess pressure are non-existant. There are other reloaders that might like to use this bullet in a .357 Maximum. Some have told me that this bullet should not exceed 1600 fps. Gander Mountain advertises that it can be pushed to 3000 fps. If it is used in a .357 Maximum or a .357 magnum that does not have COL constraints, is there any reason it cannot exceed 1600 fps? Thanks Jack"

[cudatruck]

"cusion"!!? does that mean up to 2000 or up to 3600?

[jackddavis]

"cusion"!!? does that mean up to 2000 or up to 3600?

When someone mentions cushion to me, I add that cushion to the base figure. That would mean 3600 fps. But some how I doubt that is what he meant. But, maybe. In my case it irrelevant. 2100 fps (est.) is about all I can get. And that's close enough. I wish their replies weren't so ambiguous.