Author Topic: 5.56 nato reload problem!!! --Fixxed problem , LOCK IT UP!!! (Read 1993 times)

ironglowjr · « **on:** March 07, 2012, 02:55:19 PM »

Hey guys thought I would bring this problm I had to ya'll. I have a AR 15 with a 5.56 NATO 1-7 twist BBL on it and I find that my reloads will get stuck in chamber locking my bolt forward. However if I use factory 5.56 ammo or 223 rem ammo they round great as well as steel case. All demensions are checked and checkout fine, this only happens when i run them through the sizer die (Lee Dies). Has anyone else had this problem ?? And does anyone know what it could be? Thanks Guys!!!!
Ironglowjr

Larry L · « **Reply #1 on:** March 07, 2012, 04:21:30 PM »

Sounds like you need to be looking for a small base sizer die. You can taker a marks-a-lot and put a vertical line from the tip of the bullet down to the rim and chamber a known round that sticks. Gently pull the round out, it should show you where it's binding. Most often it'll bind at the head which would indicate the need for the small base sizer.

ironglowjr · « **Reply #2 on:** March 07, 2012, 06:03:39 PM »

Thanks i apreciate the help... I was thinking it was that and that is what i heard already so i guess that is prob my problem...Thanks for the help....

shot1 · « **Reply #3 on:** March 08, 2012, 02:13:34 AM »

Before you go and get a SB die be sure that you are getting all you can out of your original die. Be sure you screw it down to the shell holder then back the shell holder away and turn the die down another 1/4 turn or so and raise the ram and make the leaver cam over. This will take all the slop out of your press and really let you FL size a case.

Old Syko · « **Reply #4 on:** March 08, 2012, 03:02:00 AM »

Small base dies are only a work around of a symptom of another problem. Miscut or rough chamber, bad dies, improper die set up, previously over loaded brass, or any number of things are the real problem. No AR should ever need ammo loaded with small base dies. I go through thousands of rounds of reloads a year, a large amount of which were originally SAW fired and all are loaded with standard FL dies.

As a former armorer the OP should have little trouble in finding the real problem.

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #5 on:** March 08, 2012, 05:38:05 AM »

Just a guess here , check for case lube left on the reloads , that will lock one up real quick .

stimpy

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #6 on:** March 08, 2012, 06:52:13 AM »

I have an AR that fed factory remington perfect but not Hornady. Its a 6.8 SPC. The bullet was hitting . I took a dowel with 900 grit wet dry paper and cleaned the leade into the bore and the problem wet away. So I would ask if ithe bbl was new and had a coating or such in it maybe holding a piece of metal or such or just crusted in the chamber ? old bbl and maybe had shot some steel cased ammo that had a poly coating that could have collected in the chamber ?
also was the brass from that AR ? Did you set the shoulder far enough back if the brass came from another gun ?

ironglowjr · « **Reply #7 on:** March 08, 2012, 12:39:48 PM »

Thanx Guys I apreciate all this info I will Start Trying some of these suggestions and get back to you as soon as i get the problem worked out....

ironglowjr · « **Reply #8 on:** March 08, 2012, 08:41:18 PM »

Thanks for the help guys. I fixed the problem with the 5.56 brass, not sure what exactley it was but i took my die apart and it was suprisingly rusty so i gave it a good cleaning andthen i reset the die by botoming it out and then a 1/4 turn with ram down.... I made 3 "dummy rounds to put ina mag and they cycled through great sobetween the rust and resetting my dies it is fixed....Yeah!!!!!

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #9 on:** March 09, 2012, 10:36:56 AM »

i own 6 ars. Some have a bit tighter chambers then others. I use small base dies to load ALL my 223 and 308 ammo anymore. The ar15s and ar10s are guns i might have to protect my family with and i want them absolutely reliable. Small base sizing and trimming after every firing insures this. Ive shot ammo out of my ar15 and ar10 with ammo loaed with small base dies and regular dies and it makes absoultely no differecne in accuracy. As a matter of fact i even use it in my bolt 308s .

Savage · « **Reply #10 on:** March 09, 2012, 02:29:24 PM »

To insure function in my 3 ARs, and any other AR I might have to use in a serious social situation, all my 5.56 ammo is loaded using small base dies. The number one requirement for ammunition is, it absolutely must function in any firearm of proper caliber.
Savage

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #11 on:** March 10, 2012, 12:34:34 AM »

amen to that. If ### ever did hit the fan the last thing i want is to have to sort out ammo for each individual gun. I want to know that any ammo i grab will work in any gun of that caliber.

Quote from: Savage on March 09, 2012, 02:29:24 PM

To insure function in my 3 ARs, and any other AR I might have to use in a serious social situation, all my 5.56 ammo is loaded using small base dies. The number one requirement for ammunition is, it absolutely must function in any firearm of proper caliber.
Savage

Old Syko · « **Reply #12 on:** March 10, 2012, 01:30:17 AM »

On the other hand, in an extreme situation, I would rather have a gun that would chamber any ammo as was a problem for some recently in Afganastan and Iraq when only foreign manufacture ammo of questionable quality was available. For them it was proven more important to have adaptable weapons rather than have to adapt their ammo. I will never again use SB dies for just this reason unless they are to be used for one specific gun and none of those will be ARs. As I said earlier, SB dies are a work around for a symptom rather than a cure for a problem.

Larry L · « **Reply #13 on:** March 10, 2012, 05:49:47 AM »

From the Speer website under Tech Tips:
Reloading military rifle brass that may have been fired in an automatic could require resizing with a Small Base Die (available from RCBS) to ensure they fit in your commercial chamber. Only needed for the first resizing.
While the OP didn't state if the brass was military most of the brass folks are using is once fired military. Some of it has been pretty beat up even being once fired and does require a small base die to get it back to right. I rarely use one with the exception of the 5.56 and the 6x45 on AR platforms. But I have seen where old pump action rifles have the need for a small base die or the rounds won't load. With all respects, not all guns are created equal and to destroy an antique or not shoot it because you have an issue with small base dies just doesn't make sense. They make them for a reason and that's to solve chambering issues with guns that might not be perfect.

ironglowjr · « **Reply #14 on:** March 10, 2012, 10:55:20 AM »

Great point on the Small base dies and i totally understand what all are saying. It might not hurt to get a snall base die for the ole AR afterall......Thanks again for the wealth of knowledge guys......

Savage · « **Reply #15 on:** March 10, 2012, 04:32:40 PM »

Quote from: Old Syko on March 10, 2012, 01:30:17 AM

On the other hand, in an extreme situation, I would rather have a gun that would chamber any ammo as was a problem for some recently in Afganastan and Iraq when only foreign manufacture ammo of questionable quality was available. For them it was proven more important to have adaptable weapons rather than have to adapt their ammo. I will never again use SB dies for just this reason unless they are to be used for one specific gun and none of those will be ARs. As I said earlier, SB dies are a work around for a symptom rather than a cure for a problem.

Don't think our troops in the field have the capability to modify their ammo. I'm unclear on what you mean about "Adaptable Weapons". Don't know how you'd adapt them to chamber out of spec ammo short of an oversize chamber reamer. All the SB die does is return the cartridge case to factory dimensions in the web area of the case where FL dies frequently cannot. Especially problematic when using mixed brass from unknown sources. I'm having difficulty understanding how this is a "Work Around" as well. I'm ready to be educated as to the proper way to correct the "Failure to Chamber" due to over size cases problem.
Savage

ironglow · « **Reply #16 on:** March 10, 2012, 05:08:15 PM »

Quote from: Savage on March 10, 2012, 04:32:40 PM

Quote from: Old Syko on March 10, 2012, 01:30:17 AM
On the other hand, in an extreme situation, I would rather have a gun that would chamber any ammo as was a problem for some recently in Afganastan and Iraq when only foreign manufacture ammo of questionable quality was available. For them it was proven more important to have adaptable weapons rather than have to adapt their ammo. I will never again use SB dies for just this reason unless they are to be used for one specific gun and none of those will be ARs. As I said earlier, SB dies are a work around for a symptom rather than a cure for a problem.

Don't think our troops in the field have the capability to modify their ammo. I'm unclear on what you mean about "Adaptable Weapons". Don't know how you'd adapt them to chamber out of spec ammo short of an oversize chamber reamer. All the SB die does is return the cartridge case to factory dimensions in the web area of the case where FL dies frequently cannot. Especially problematic when using mixed brass from unknown sources. I'm having difficulty understanding how this is a "Work Around" as well. I'm ready to be educated as to the proper way to correct the "Failure to Chamber" due to over size cases problem.
Savage

ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Savage;
We can just ask Ironglowjr what latitude combat troops have in this regard in the field ? As a Special Operations Marine, he spent some deployments in Al Anbar's "Sunni Triangle", when the triangle was hot. I know of at least one way they can modify their ammo...but it is highly frowned upon!

I guessing what Old Syko means by 'adaptable'..is a chamber of looser dimensions..but he will have to clarify.

Do you think the rusty dies are the answer...fully or even partially ?

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #17 on:** March 11, 2012, 12:34:03 AM »

well i allready have a bunch of ars and dont feel the need to buy more guns. The ones i have now function just fine with sb sized ammo and ive have enough of it loaded to supply a small army. Another reason i use sb dies is i buy brass once fired. No way i can afford to buy new brass for the ars. I just shoot them to much. If you do go with once fired brass you will find like the other poster said that its been fired in loose chambers and if you use a standard die it just wont work in most other chambers. If i do run out of ammo which is very unlikely, the chances are that the ammo im going to pick up elsewhere isnt going to be handloaded ammo anyway and new ammo runs in about anything. in my opinion sb dies are a cure for symptom. If you even bought a couple thousand once fired brass and went through the major job of sizing depriming, swageing pockets and loading just to find out the brass was fired in a sloppy gun and wont work youd know that. Another thing i have to ask is why not? What does it hurt? Its no harder to load with them and if they make your ammo more reliable why not? Also what if you load with standard dies and they work fine in your gun then ### does hit the fan and your neighbor needs some ammo to help protect you and they dont work in his gun. Just doesnt make any sense whatsovever to me not to sb size and trim your brass so the ammo will function in anything.

Quote from: Old Syko on March 10, 2012, 01:30:17 AM

On the other hand, in an extreme situation, I would rather have a gun that would chamber any ammo as was a problem for some recently in Afganastan and Iraq when only foreign manufacture ammo of questionable quality was available. For them it was proven more important to have adaptable weapons rather than have to adapt their ammo. I will never again use SB dies for just this reason unless they are to be used for one specific gun and none of those will be ARs. As I said earlier, SB dies are a work around for a symptom rather than a cure for a problem.

Dave in WV · « **Reply #18 on:** March 11, 2012, 04:18:57 AM »

Without buying small base dies first, try running your .223/5.56 brass through a carbide .357 mag die with the decapping rod removed. It will squeeze the web area of the brass if needed.

Savage · « **Reply #19 on:** March 11, 2012, 06:11:38 AM »

Do you think the rusty dies are the answer...fully or even partially ?

Ironglow,

While rusty dies can cause problems, stuck cases being the most common. With some brass a FL sizing die just won't return the case to spec in the web area. This is not a AR specific problem. Occasionally a round sized with a conventional FL sizing die is just not going to chamber in any chamber of correct dimensions. Throw in the use of cases fired in another chamber, the odds go way up. Anyone loading for any length of time has learned this lesson. Just a minor annoyance in a hunting rifle where a reasonable person will chamber check his ammo before going afield, a real problem in a business gun. Like Lloyd, I trim, chamfer, deburr, swage, and size using SB dies. Lots of work, but essential for ammo that simply must work.

Savage

ironglowjr · « **Reply #20 on:** March 11, 2012, 09:46:39 AM »

Savage,

I realize that probably was not the only problem . I also had rerset my dies over so i think it might not have been getting a full length resize of the shell. I put the die in with the ram up and had the die touch then back off the ram and did another 1/4 turn. Afdter a cleaning and this set up again they work great . I think i was a little foolish when I got the dies and he said they were set to go, I should never of believed that. Needless to say they work now and i am having no problems but i will keep what you said in mind.

ironglowjr

parkergunshop · « **Reply #21 on:** March 11, 2012, 11:10:47 AM »

Lloyd is correct and an experienced handloader will use small base dies when reloading for any auto or semi-auto and for most pumps and lever actions as they just don't have the camming power to fully seat cases that have been in particular been fired in over sized or even in spec chambers.
The fellow up the road had problem with his AR15 and with his BLR 30-06 both were solved by using small base dies. I pointed out his problem when I noticed that the 5.56 die in his reloading press did not have S.B. stamped on it, being new to reloading for an auto and lever action he simply thought his new guns should work the same as a bolt action.
To make matters worse the 5.56 rounds would chamber in his gun, but the firing pin would not fall due to incomplete lock up, what would have happened if they had fired? This is probably the reason for some of the Remington model 742 blow ups out of spec ammo and an out of tolerance mechanism from wear.

ironglow · « **Reply #22 on:** March 11, 2012, 12:27:09 PM »

A lot to be learned with the info exchanged in this thread, thanks guys ..

Old Syko · « **Reply #23 on:** March 11, 2012, 02:29:40 PM »

Quote from: parkergunshop on March 11, 2012, 11:10:47 AM

The fellow up the road had problem with his AR15 and with his BLR 30-06 both were solved by using small base dies.

I doubt the problem was solved. It is more likely a symptom of the real problem was pushed aside with the use of the SB dies and the real problem is still there. Will the use of SB dies make the gun cycle and shoot? Absolutely, but the cause of the problem is usually something else. On most ARs it has to do with the chamber being rough or chattered by the use of a dull reamer. Manufacturers want to get all the use out of their tooling they can and so will use it sometimes beyond what they should. Given a choice I would prefer a barrel that was the first to be cut with a particular reamer but since that isn't possible I polish the chamber of my ARs. They will all be on the high side of the spec but still within allowed tolerances. There's more to these things than merely assembling random parts into a complete gun if you want them to perform correctly.

The one thing SB dies will accomplish with impunity is shortened brass life. Lloyd has mentioned the cost of replacement brass and that seems to get worse every day. I want to see as many loadings as I can from my brass and I can't do that with SB dies and I don't want to spend my time test fitting each round after their loaded. I've chosen to learn a better for me at least, way to get by.

After over 40 years of enjoying this sport and loading probably 95% or better of the ammo I've used in that time I feel I've found what works best for me and have helped others to do the same with the same result. Anyone who wishes to use SB dies is welcome to it if it makes them happy.

BTW, burnt up around 1300 rounds today in multiple guns without that first hiccup. Just like always.

Savage · « **Reply #24 on:** March 11, 2012, 03:37:07 PM »

Old Syko,
Couple questions if you will:
What exactly is this "Better Way" of which you speak? Do you load ammo for one particular rifle, with a single lot of brass and keep it separate from others? Are you loading for an auto loading rifle?
Short of the above fixes, (None of which are satisfactory to me.) I'm still having problems getting my head around anyone having problem with sizing the fired cases to factory specs, whether they use a traditional full length sizing die or a small base. I've had to discard cases due to split necks, but I can't recall having a case fail in the case head or web with reloads in my ARs. In 3 gun you normally lose as much brass as you pick up, so no way to insure the brass you pick up came from your rifle. Just curious, not trying to dog you out here.
Savage
edit:
Ok, just reread your last post. You polish your chamber. Nice to do, but doesn't solve the problem of out of spec ammo. Cheers---------

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #25 on:** March 11, 2012, 04:40:01 PM »

Putting the SB die issue aside , Mr K knew many years ago , when he designed the dreaded AK47 , that not all ammo would be created equally , and not all rifles would be cleaned properly , thus he designed the chamber spec's of his rifle to be very forgiving , just to account for these very problems .

The problem with today's AR's is that the chambers are cut to a very close tolerance , thus not allowing for the variations in today's multi-national produced rounds , were the spec. from one company may not be the spec. for another , even though the book says that they should .

stimpy

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #26 on:** March 12, 2012, 12:29:10 AM »

syko thats another thing that im about anal with with it comes to home defense/self defense ammo. 5 firings and my brass goes to the junk bucket. I just cant see taking a chance on a case head seperation or any other case failure with ammo that could be called on to defend my family. 223 brass is cheap enough that even if a guy tossed it after 3 firings it isnt going to break you. I can EASILY get 5 firings out of brass that is small based sized. In all reality youll shorten your brass live alot quicker by pushing it to higher pressures. I also never load max loads in black guns. All my loads are at least a grain below max. an extra 100 feet per second means nothing in a fire fight and goes along ways toward insuring brass life and reliability. Like you i shoot my ars ALOT. In the summer i proably go through a 1000 rounds a week shooting my differnt ars. I too have found what works for me. Im not one that will tolarate ANY malfuntion in a ar. Loading ammo like i do I can shoot the snot out of them without worrying about stopping to clean them. Just a few drops of oil occasionaly and they keep running. Worry about sizing to much to save brass life and a 1000 rounds down the line gunk has your gun stopped. In a shtf senerio gun cleaning may not be possible. things like brass life and even accuaracy come in a distant second place to reliability. thats why i sm base size for ars that dont really even need it to function.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #27 on:** March 12, 2012, 04:34:03 AM »

Ya'll got me wondering , I use Redding dies most of the time , just like the way they work. What I wonder is if different brands size different ? I load for lever guns , autos and at one time a pump. So far I have not had a problem other that when the cases were not trimmed to the same length and some crimps were to much crushing the case ot causing a bluge at the shoulder. I had rounds loaded from picked up military brass ( LC) that I loaded for my ground hog gun . A friend had his M-16 at the range and offered to let my sons shoot it. All 300+ rounds went thru no problem. I have 308 Military brass from the 60's that was shot from a machine gun as it had marks from the belt on it. I reloaded with Reding dies and it has functioned in a BAR , M1A , never a hickup. All my loading for rifles is on single stage presses . I have never used SB dies.
Also I have shot brass many loadings. Back in IMHSA days pratice ammo was loaded in brass with split necks . We has an easy out welded to a steel rod for removing seperated cases.
My SD ammoo is kept seperate from pratice ammo .

Old Syko · « **Reply #28 on:** March 12, 2012, 09:05:45 AM »

Not only are there dimensional differences in brands but differences within the same brand. Just like chamber reamers, the tooling to cut and polish dies wear over time and cause slight variations from the beginning to the end of a run. In most cases QC keeps this variation within a specific tolerance which is satisfactory to the vast majority of shooters. Shame it ain't a perfect world.

All I try to do is make my guns as reliable as an AK while maintaining or enhancing the inherent accuracy of the AR. For me these guns and ammo are just for fun. In a SHTF situation they will function as well as any for as long as I can hold out I'm sure. If I run out of ammo maybe Lloyd can loan me some. I'm sure it will work well. Not sure I will be able to reciprocate though.

Lloyd, nothing malicious intended. Merely a little humor.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #29 on:** March 12, 2012, 10:13:31 AM »

shootall redding dies are top shelf i my book too and i cant swear to this but i was told there 223 and 308 dies are cut to tighter then normal dimention so in fact are sb dies. they sure are nice dies to use.

Quote from: SHOOTALL on March 12, 2012, 04:34:03 AM

Ya'll got me wondering , I use Redding dies most of the time , just like the way they work. What I wonder is if different brands size different ? I load for lever guns , autos and at one time a pump. So far I have not had a problem other that when the cases were not trimmed to the same length and some crimps were to much crushing the case ot causing a bluge at the shoulder. I had rounds loaded from picked up military brass ( LC) that I loaded for my ground hog gun . A friend had his M-16 at the range and offered to let my sons shoot it. All 300+ rounds went thru no problem. I have 308 Military brass from the 60's that was shot from a machine gun as it had marks from the belt on it. I reloaded with Reding dies and it has functioned in a BAR , M1A , never a hickup. All my loading for rifles is on single stage presses . I have never used SB dies.
Also I have shot brass many loadings. Back in IMHSA days pratice ammo was loaded in brass with split necks . We has an easy out welded to a steel rod for removing seperated cases.
My SD ammoo is kept seperate from pratice ammo .