Lapping The Savage ML'er Barrels ?

[woodseye]

Randy, are you doing any fire lapping or using any JB paste on the Savage ML'ers you are testing? I have a stainless coming and wondered if this was a common practice. You seem to be getting some right good accuracy out of the guns you've tested so far and I've seen no mention of any bore lapping. I've got the sub bases and powder covered and the 250 dead centers and SST's should complete the equipment needed. Bedding and trigger work I'm quite familiar with but the lapping has me wondering. Is the stainless barrel more prone to problems than the blued? Any advice, personal experience, and info is appreciated.

      Thanks woods

[RandyWakeman]

Randy, are you doing any fire lapping or using any JB paste on the Savage ML'ers you are testing? - - -  Any advice, personal experience, and info is appreciated.

No, I've not done any hand lapping / fire lapping on 10ML barrels, though some have and have reported easier loading, velocity increases, etc. I have gone the J-B Bore paste route on a few guns, but that is such a mild abrasive it is have served more as a really thorough cleaning / scrubbing vehicle for me than anything else.

One thing that is normally not present with bore lapping (and assorted other things) is a thoroughly documented before / after log. More than a few times, I've run into folks at the range (not only muzzleloaders) that have gushed, "Man, does this gun shoot great! I sent it off for accurizing, they polished the heck out of everything, I had it magna-ported, the action re-bedded, trigger was stoned, added an extra pillar, oversize recoil lugs as well, and had the barrel hand-lapped as well. This thing really shoots!!!!![/b]"

So, you answer by congratulating them on their fine shooter, and then ask what their average group size was "before" and "after" all the modifications. "Oh, never shot it before," is often the response.  :roll:

So, the only real advice on lapping that I can toss out is to just relax, have fun, and shoot your new 10ML-II for a while to establish some sort of baseline. The 10ML-II I'm testing right now is a far more accurate shooter than I am. The test target it came with shows that it is just over a 1/2 MOA gun. I've not shot any groups with it that good, personally, but there are three different bullets that have done better than 1" for me day after day at 100 or 120 yards. That's better than most muzzleloaders, and far better than required (for me, anyway) in a 200 yard hunting rifle. 1-1/2" repeatable accuracy to me is just great, and anything better than that is just icing on the cake. That barrel just will never be touched. I'd just look for a problem first before trying to solve it.

The 4140 Chrome-Moly vs. 416SS as "accurate" barrels has been debated quite a bit, but there seems to be no clear consensus on that. The 4140 is easier to machine, so my vague impression is that it is easier for some manufacturers to turn out closer tolerance barrels with it rather than 416. But, bench rest shooters seem to have a strong preference for SS, and Dan Lilja for example has observed that SS barrels last longer, and are more resistant to throat erosion. I personally prefer SS in inline muzzleloaders over carbon steel-- yet the Austin & Hallecks and now the T/C Contender in carbon steel are excellent shooters.

[woodseye]

Thanks Randy, forgot that the gun will come with an accuracy target. Having a terrible time finding an accu trigger gun..........they are almost impossible for me to lay my hands on one. My dealer is making sure that Jerrys is shipping "only" accu triggers as many outfits are still trying to push the old stock before ordering or sending any new ones. I'm waiting on E-Mail confirmations from two different wholesale suppliers that they will ship an accu trigger if ordered.

It seems I have to get a package gun to get one without sights and sight holes and then pedal the scope and rings to make room for the Conquest. Camo gun looks wrong with the stainless action so I guess its black synthetic and a little viagra treatment if the forend is not stiff enough. My gunsmith and I have worked out a good technique for skim bedding on the pillars to keep action level as well as the tang and barrel floating. Can't wait to start playing with the loads and bullet combos.

      woods

[RandyWakeman]

Thanks Randy, forgot that the gun will come with an accuracy target. Having a terrible time finding an accu trigger gun..........they are almost impossible for me to lay my hands on one.     woods

Hi Woods,

I'm told that they all do not come with test targets-- the synthetic Savage stocks are hollow and on the cheap side, at least to me. I believe that anything Savage has shipped this year is an Accu-Trigger gun, apparently some dealers do have them-- but just don't know it?!?

There's a lot of room for mounting a scope . . . depending on what scope you are going with. Can't imagine doing any more than just taking off the rear ramp, if that.

[forester47]

Woodseye, Have you checked on the ones at Natchez? Are they the 04's with Accutrigger? They show a few in stock but I don't know how often they update their web site. Also, Randy if you read this, did I remember an earlier post that all the 04's have been made and no more will be manufactured? If that's the case then it would probably be impossible to find one sometime around September, wouldn't it?

[RandyWakeman]

Woodseye, Have you checked on the ones at Natchez? Are they the 04's with Accutrigger? Also, Randy if you read this, did I remember an earlier post that all the 04's have been made and no more will be manufactured? If that's the case then it would probably be impossible to find one sometime around September, wouldn't it?

I don't remember the specific post, but someone (I believe) had called Natchez and they checked-- their composite models in stock were AT, the laminated were not.

I wish I knew exactly what was what-- I presume that if Savage gets enough backorders they will schedule another run, but I have no exact idea what their production scheduling looks like. Their CF AT rifles seem to be extremely strong sellers as well.

With all the mixed signals, it might be best to just visit your favorite local dealer-- and ask him to bring in an AT model for you from Zanders, Jerry's, Accu-Sport, etc.,  and be done with it.

[woodseye]

With all the mixed signals, it might be best to just visit your favorite local dealer-- and ask him to bring in an AT model for you from Zanders, Jerry's, Accu-Sport, etc., and be done with it

Thats all well and good except that raises the price, and in some cases quite a bit, my dealer is $65-$75 higher for the same gun. I have both the synthetic and laminate stock Savages and don't want the extra pound the laminate stock weighs to lug around. Besides that the stuff we drag these guns thru in these cutovers quickly reduces any finished stock to a mass of scratches and dings in no time. Why do some come with targets and some don't? That makes no sense at all, will check Natchez after work today.......currently checking Midsouth, Winks Sporting Goods, and Dustin who has the site over on the Savage ML'ing forum.

I'm one who always removes the open sights when installing a scope and don't like the holes left that you need to find little screws to fill, and they still don't look as nice and clean as not having the holes in the first place. The scoped guns don't have the holes or plastic open sights to deal with, which I like. I've had both of these kinds of Savage guns also  :wink:

I'm not going to get desperate and take a gun I don't want or settle for whatever is available at any cost. I don't need it till fall so if this remains up in the air its OK. I prefer an accu trigger gun with an accuracy target at a reasonable price and thats pretty simple. It would be one thing if they were selling the older models at a discount to make way for the newer ones but that doesn't seem to be the case. I can make do with an older trigger model and quickly set the trigger and safety right where I like it for hunting(after all a 3# trigger and easy to slide safety is just a 15 minute adjustment away and plenty ample for a winter time hunting rifle being shot with gloves on) but why do this if there is not a money difference?

Didn't realize this was going to be a little harder than I first expected. Well gives me time for the sub-bases to come and locating that Vhita Vhouri powder that no local shops want to stock up here in the puckerbrush of Maine  :?

     woods

[RandyWakeman]

and Dustin who has the site over on the Savage ML'ing forum.

Apparently, test targets are not supplied as SOP at all. Mine did, whether due to one of the first off the line or ?? I don't know.

No reason Dustin can't fix you up.

[woodseye]

Just got Dustins E-Mail reply and he says 14 weeks before he will have any accu-trigger guns to sell. This is wacko if they are shipping how come these regular sellers can't get them? He says six buyers waiting inline for his first shipment sometime in May. Waiting to hear from two more suppliers. Sorry to hear the target doesn't come with each gun as that would give you an idea what it was capable of.

    woods

[RandyWakeman]

Confusing is the word-- I'll try to get a straight answer, with specifics.

[woodseye]

I just located the first accu trigger Savages and they are about $40-50 more than last years models. I'm told they have the larger easier to grip safety, a slightly better ramrod, and of course the accu trigger. Not quite as easy to find as I expected but available none the less.

SS/Laminate $530
SS/Camo $530
SS/Syn $500
Blue/Camo $489
Blue/Syn $460

Does anyone know of better prices on the new accu trigger models at this point? Some suppliers are saying several months before they will have in stock and others seem to have them to sell now.

woods

[RandyWakeman]

Hi Woodseye,

Who has them? A lot of people have been asking! :shock:

[Dragon31]

Woodseye:

When I got my Savage ML II, stainless about 2 1/2 years ago loading it was a pretty difficult task.  Getting the sabot down the muzzle took a lot of presure and I figured I was deforming the sabot and bullet in the process.  I took it to a gun smith that I have total confidence in and who has worked on 20 or so of my other rifles.  Told him I wanted the barrel lapped and would be back in two weeks.  He did an outstanding job.  Maybe two good.  The sabots now load 500% better but, I worry about having enough resistance to ignite IMR 4227 every time.  I've never had any trouble and don't want any.  My gun shoots 48 grain with a double sabot (28 ga) and 300 gr bullet into 2 inch all day.  I learned how to work on the Savage triggers several years ago and adjusted my own trigger.  My only gripe with the ML II is the small safety.  Unless you work on it a bit it is difficult to put into the firing position in cold weather.  The new ones have not only the new trigger but have changed the safety too a much larger one which is much more user friendly.
I stopped by Whittaker's gun shop, Just west of Owensboro, KY and he had the new ones in stock and on the shelf.  They do have an increase in price, so they are out there.

[woodseye]

Agreed in all respects Dragon, I can adjust the small safety to work good and the trigger can be made pretty good to about 3# also. The lapping I will hold on till I get the gun a shoot and load it some and then will decide if it needs JB or even a little better job by my gunbuilder. Thanks for responses all.

     woods

[RandyWakeman]

Hello Woodseye,

I did speak with Savage today-- the "14 week delivery" is not plausible, but distributors are free to say what they will. Part of it is understandable, as they have been burned by "new" models again and again not being available. Witness the Ruger Gold Label. The V-P of Savage has offered his assistance to any dealer that is told "three months delivery" or other such nonsense.

The only other suggestion, based on our cited prices above, is that I personally would not be quick to overlook the laminated stock version. It remains the finest lam. stock I've seen on a muzzleloader, looks great, balances the gun out beautifully, and has functional checkering as well. If you were to buy that stock alone the price would be $225 or so.

[woodseye]

Hi Randy..........sorry for the delay but I wanted to make sure I was covered on my gun before posting up further info. The above mentioned prices are at Winks Sporting Goods in Maryland and a major seller at Gun Broker if I'm not mistaken. He just got all models in with accu triggers,ignore the prices on his website as of Monday he had not updated to the new prices yet but sent me this E-Mail.............

There are no more without the Accu-Trigger available. I have a few of the new ones right now. They are a little more expensive. I need to up-date my website. I have the SS/Lam with the new trigger for 530.00, SS/Camo for 530.00, Blue/Camo for 489.00, SS/Syn for 500.00 and a Blue/Syn for 460.00. I do not have any of the package guns but it is not a problem to take the sights off and plug the holes. Thanks, Gary

Wink`s Sporting Goods
12122A Carol Lane
Princess Anne, MD  21853
Shop-410-621-0400
410-651-1866 / 410-651-1862 FAX
www.winkssportinggoods

The laminate stock which I have on one Savage already is very nice but heavy and not as weather proof for my type of use. New laminate stocks for the centerfires are already available at Brownells for about $159 and their are some like new used ones floating around in short action for $100. I'm sure it won't be long before the ML'er stocks are likewise made available. I think in the future if I wanted a good stock I would get a Stockade stock from Kevin and either modify it myself or see if he is set up to do it. Like the weight and finish as well as the skeleton aluminum bedding block with pillars and recoil lug pad. Think I will go with the synthetic for now.

      woods