Author Topic: Marine speaks out against obama on facebook.  (Read 964 times)

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Offline powderman

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Marine speaks out against obama on facebook.
« on: March 08, 2012, 10:09:54 AM »
  Marine's Facebook page tests military rulesAssociated PressBy JULIE WATSON | Associated Press – 20 hrs ago   
  • This undated photo released courtesy of Gary Stein shows the Camp Pendleton U.S. Marine, Stein, who has been criticizing President Obama on his Facebook page. U.S. Marine Sgt. Gary Stein says he has the right … to his opinion like every American and will fight any reprisals by the Corps. Military observers disagree and say service members cannot speak out against their commander-in-chief, especially in wartime. (AP Photo/Courtesy Gary Stein) 
    SAN DIEGO (AP) — Marine Sgt. Gary Stein first started a Facebook page called Armed Forces Tea Party Patriots to encourage service members to exercise their free speech rights. Then he declared that he wouldn't follow orders from the commander in chief, President Barack Obama.      While Stein softened his statement to say he wouldn't follow "unlawful orders," military observers say he may have gone too far.
The Marine Corps is now looking into whether he violated the military's rules prohibiting political statements by those in uniform and broke its guidelines on what troops can and cannot say on social media. Stein said his views are constitutionally protected.
While troops have always expressed their views in private, Stein's case highlights the potential for their opinions to go global as tech-savvy service members post personal details, videos and pictures that can hurt the military's image at home and abroad.

   "I think that it's been pretty well established for a long time that freedom of speech is one area in which people do surrender some of their basic rights in entering the armed forces," said former Navy officer David Glazier, a professor at Loyola Law School in Los Angeles.
"Good order and discipline require the military maintain respect for the chain of command," Glazier said. "That includes prohibiting speech critical of the senior officers in that chain of command — up to and including the commander in chief."
According to Pentagon directives, military personnel in uniform can't sponsor a political club; participate in any TV or radio program or group discussion that advocates for or against a political party, candidate or cause; or speak at any event promoting a political movement.
Commissioned officers also may not use contemptuous words against senior officials, including the defense secretary or the president.
[Related: Military seeks sixth-sense training]
In January, an Army reservist wearing camouflaged fatigues got into trouble for taking the stage during a rally in Iowa with Republican presidential candidate and Texas congressman Ron Paul.
Stein was first cautioned by his superiors at Camp Pendleton, north of San Diego, in 2010 after he launched his Facebook page, criticizing Obama's health care overhaul. Stein volunteered to take down the page while he reviewed the rules at the request of his superiors.
He said he determined he was not in violation and relaunched the page under the shortened account name Armed Forces Tea Party. Last week, he said his superiors told him he couldn't use social media sites on government computers after he posted the message stating he would not follow unlawful orders of the president.
Stein said his statement was part of an online debate about NATO allowing U.S. troops to be tried for the Quran burnings in Afghanistan.
In that context, he said, he was stating that he would not follow orders from the president if those orders included detaining U.S. citizens, disarming them or doing anything else that he believes would violate their constitutional rights.
Another Marine alerted his command about the statement, Stein said.
Stein said he respects the office of the president, but he does not agree with Obama's policies. He said he is within his rights to speak up.
"Just because I'm a Marine doesn't mean I don't have free speech or can't say my personal opinion about the president or other public official just like anybody else," Stein said. "The Constitution trumps everything else."
Stein said it's positive when service members are well-versed on the Constitution and what's going on in government.
"When we know what we're fighting for, we fight harder," he said.
The Marine Corps said Stein is allowed to express his personal opinions as long as they do not give the impression he is speaking in his official capacity as a Marine. Spokesman Maj. Michael Armistead said the Corps is taking a closer look to ensure Stein has not crossed that line.
"At this time, he has not been asked to take down the statement on his page," he said.
Stein appears in a dress shirt and tie on his Facebook page but he also describes himself as "a conservative blogger, speaker, the founder of the Armed Forces Tea Party and active-duty, eight-year Marine Corps veteran."
Marine Sgt. Jerret Wright, who liked Stein's page, said Stein "probably skirted the line a little bit" with his latest message about not following Obama's orders, but his boldness in expressing his views has been refreshing in a community that often feels silenced.
"People assume that we're zombies with an on-and-off switch, and that we listen to orders and do nothing else," Wright said.
Military observers say it's not that simple. They say it is bad form to lash out at the commander in chief. Experts also say his Facebook postings appear to link his professional standing with his political views.
They also point out that the Pentagon policy is necessary in preventing political and religious debates that could divide a unit and disrupt the strong working relationship that is needed to carry out missions, Glazier said.
"There are plenty of examples in the world of militaries heavily involved in influencing political events that have shown that is not conducive to civilian rule of law," he said.
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

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Offline LONGTOM

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Re: Marine speaks out against obama on facebook.
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2012, 11:01:11 AM »
Good for him.
The day of the military robot is over.
I am sure he isn't the only one that feels the way he does.
 
"They also point out that the Pentagon policy is necessary in preventing political and religious debates that could divide a unit and disrupt the strong working relationship that is needed to carry out missions, Glazier said."
 
I guess open gays don't count when it comes to possible divide amongst the unit.
I know several military persons who are on either side of this debate.
One of them said "It might just have you watching both sides of your fox hole at night, if you know what I mean"!
 
 
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Offline Lon371

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Re: Marine speaks out against obama on facebook.
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2012, 11:17:12 AM »
 I think he will regret posting against the so called pres. I agree with his points of view. As a serving military person, I am pretty sure there are regs against it. He was already warned. I think now that it is in the news, he may have to pay his dues.
 
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Offline DalesCarpentry

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Re: Marine speaks out against obama on facebook.
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2012, 01:31:25 PM »
What does GI stand for? Is it Government Issued? From what I understand when you enter the services of the US you belong to them and have given up your rights of a normal citizen. I could be wrong I never read one of them contracts when you join but that is what I was told by my brother that just retired from the Army.  Besides would it not be insubordination at least? Take care Dale
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Offline yellowtail3

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Re: Marine speaks out against obama on facebook.
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2012, 02:13:35 PM »
Just goes to show that jarheads can be as stoop idly stubborn as anyone else. Aren't these guys supposed to follow orders?
Jesus said we should treat other as we'd want to be treated... and he didn't qualify that by their party affiliation, race, or even if they're of diff religion.

Offline teamnelson

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Re: Marine speaks out against obama on facebook.
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2012, 02:16:38 PM »
It is commonly assumed that taking the oath of service is relinquishing your rights, but that is simply not true. All of your rights are intact, but greatly influenced by the Uniform Code of Military Justice. For example,
- your right to vote is not infringed, and recognizing how difficult it is for a service member to register and vote, there are designated voting officers for every unit in the military, and a military sponsored campaign for voter registration and information. Commanders are inspected on this.
- your right to religious freedom. Again, recognizing how difficult it is for a service member to observe their faith while on duty, we've had Chaplains literally longer than we've been a nation, to ensure that those rights are protected and accomodated. There are some restrictions placed, i.e. no sacrificing of chickens, etc. But the military is very liberal in this policy. It is the Commander's Religious Program, not the Chaplain's, and he is inspected on this.
- your right to free speech is technically intact, ... as long as you do not divulge secrets, or make disparaging remarks about your chain of command (Article 88). I was once admonished on FB as a fellow officer felt one of my postings was dangerously close to disparaging. I am doubly sure to affirm my oath publicly and frequently, actively promote constitutional awareness, and question policies, etc. that do not align to the Constitution as part of my responsibility as an officer to ensure all orders I give are lawful. I do not, however, make personally disparaging comments. I reserve my comments to performance and ideology.

This is a new phenomenon, that is revealing an ancient truth - we've never been robots. Technology has just allowed our voice to be heard in a way that the public can consume. But the questions, and the disagreement have always been present. One of the earliest lessons I learned as a Marine NCO was that there was a time and a place for dissent ... dissent was allowed, at the right time and place. And that time was behind the doors, advising the officer. However his job was to make the final call, so when we opened the doors, as long as the order was lawful, even if I thought it was dumb, none of our Marines needed to know that or it would undermine confidence in the mission. Leadership is being able to appear rock solid to everyone else for their sake, especially when you're scared inside. That has been the limiting of my free speech.
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Offline powderman

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Re: Marine speaks out against obama on facebook.
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2012, 04:48:37 PM »
With the current cic I'm sure a lot of our military is really disgusted. This guy just let it out, and probably told the truth.  POWDERMAN.  :o :o
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

Only half the people leave an abortion clinic alive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAiOEV0v2RM
What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
I learned everything about islam I need to know on 9-11-01.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDqmy1cSqgo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u9kieqGppE&feature=related
http://www.illinois.gov/gov/contactthegovernor.cfm

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Marine speaks out against obama on facebook.
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2012, 05:00:08 PM »
Let's see under Clinton a rule of You are not allowed to speak ill of the leadership of the army or the nation is reistuted from WWI.
When Bush was in Office Hillary said it is partiotic to Desent.
And many Soldiers were encouraged to speak ill about Bush and the war in Iraq and Afaganistan.
But then again it is the Democrats and you have the right to fee speach only if you agree with them.
Rush calls a woman a slut, and is roasted for it.  President gets involved and calls him dispicable.
Bill Mar uses the C word to discribe women and gives $1Million to presidentail campaign and President accepts it.
Clearly there is a Double standard by both the Democrats and the Press.
 

Offline teamnelson

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Re: Marine speaks out against obama on facebook.
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2012, 12:56:10 AM »
Liberals claim openness to dissent, they're just shocked and appalled that there is any. I will be paying close attention to how the overseas military vote is counted in 2012, or should I say "if" it's counted.
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Marine speaks out against obama on facebook.
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2012, 02:50:49 AM »
Just goes to show that jarheads can be as stoop idly stubborn as anyone else. Aren't these guys supposed to follow orders?

legal ones  ;D
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Offline mcbammer

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Re: Marine speaks out against obama on facebook.
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2012, 03:00:20 AM »
Technology   has  opened   up  a   can   of   worms   here.  I think  the  military   never   could  have  foreseen   this   when   establishing  rules  &  regulations.  Looks   like   he   might  be  burying   cigerett  butts   for   a  while.

Offline magooch

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Re: Marine speaks out against obama on facebook.
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2012, 05:18:04 AM »
How the Marine Sgt. fares will be entirely dependent on what the officers up the chain think about our disgraceful, pathetic excuse of a leader and how much they want to cover their butts.
 
I witnessed first hand what would probably be considered an insult to our then Commander in Chief (JFK) when an entire flight line errupted in cheers and celebration when it was announced that he had been killed.  No officer, nor NCO did a thing to stop it and not a word was ever heard about it.  I can only imagine the jubilation that would ensue should some ill befall the present poser.   
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Offline Sourdough

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Re: Marine speaks out against obama on facebook.
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2012, 06:01:14 AM »
The UCMJ is very specific about what a military person can and can not do.  While he has the right to say what he wants against the president, as an individual.  He may not identify himself as a member of the military when doing that.

Since he has gone public.  An article 32 will be convened, and if it is determined he violated the UCMJ he will be brought up on charges. 

IMO, with 40 years working with the military, and being married to a military Paralegal, therefore seeing a lot of these, he violated the UCMJ.  You guys got to remember the military are governed by a different set of rules than civilians.  They are governed by the Uniform Code Of Military Justice.  It's quite a bit different than the rules you live under.

I got a chewing from the commander for saying something bad about Jimmy Carter one day.  It was said in private, just myself one other NCO and the commander were present.  Thought I was going to get busted real fast.  He said since no one else outside that room heard it and due to my record he was going to let it pass this time.  I kept my mouth buttoned after that.   
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Offline yellowtail3

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Re: Marine speaks out against obama on facebook.
« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2012, 06:02:29 AM »
How the Marine Sgt. fares will be entirely dependent on what the officers up the chain think about our disgraceful, pathetic excuse of a leader and how much they want to cover their butts.
That, or how they value their oaths and duties vs their political ideology
 
Quote
I witnessed first hand what would probably be considered an insult to our then Commander in Chief (JFK) when an entire flight line errupted in cheers and celebration when it was announced that he had be killed.  No officer, nor NCO did a thing to stop it and not a word was ever heard about it.
did you approve of that?
Quote
  I can only imagine the jubilation that would ensue should some ill befall the present poser.
One can imagine (and hope?) I suppose, when elections don't go the way you might like them to go.
Jesus said we should treat other as we'd want to be treated... and he didn't qualify that by their party affiliation, race, or even if they're of diff religion.

Offline m-g Willy

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Re: Marine speaks out against obama on facebook.
« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2012, 04:44:07 PM »
He should have known better than to say anything,  being neither queer or muslim is just asking for trouble!

Offline magooch

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Re: Marine speaks out against obama on facebook.
« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2012, 03:39:00 AM »
How the Marine Sgt. fares will be entirely dependent on what the officers up the chain think about our disgraceful, pathetic excuse of a leader and how much they want to cover their butts.
That, or how they value their oaths and duties vs their political ideology
 
Quote
I witnessed first hand what would probably be considered an insult to our then Commander in Chief (JFK) when an entire flight line errupted in cheers and celebration when it was announced that he had be killed.  No officer, nor NCO did a thing to stop it and not a word was ever heard about it.
did you approve of that?
 
I had no opinion of it at all; I just thought it was somewhat unusual.

Quote
  I can only imagine the jubilation that would ensue should some ill befall the present poser.
One can imagine (and hope?) I suppose, when elections don't go the way you might like them to go.

To the contrary, I hope nothing bad happens to the present President, because I know for sure that would make him some kind of martyr and even an historic figure and he richly deserves neither.  My greatest hope for him is that he is soundly beaten in the next election.
 
I learned a long time ago that it is only the libs who are free to wish bad things to happen to a Republican that is acceptable and by the way is SOP.
 
To me, a President is just another public servant and not a celebrity and deserves no special attention, adulation, or privileges.  The same goes for all politicians.  If they do their job right--good; if they screw it up, they should be fired.
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Offline ironglow

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Re: Marine speaks out against obama on facebook.
« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2012, 04:22:02 AM »
  A couple guys from JAG when questioned yesterday, said the Marine was legal in commenting, so long as he neither claimed or implied that he was "speaking for the Corps".  Nor should he be wearing his uniform when when he says it, implying official endorsement.
   It will likeyl not end there; since I recall when I was a platoon sgt I would occasionally get a recruit who was a "stockade lawyer", and would challenge me by saying,.... "you can't make me do that"
 
 To which I had a stock answer... "You're correct, I can't MAKE you do anything, I can only make you wish you HAD done it !"
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