Author Topic: Wesson & Harrington - different...  (Read 763 times)

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Offline rdlange

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Wesson & Harrington - different...
« on: March 09, 2012, 06:52:41 AM »
This rifle is different from the H&R BC 45-70.  Dovetailed front sight - no hood, thicker butt plate and ejector barrel.  Has the flip up rear sight dovetailed into the barrel breech.  WH receiver serial.  Any idea what year?  FAQs indicate 1960 for W and 2006 for H.  Figure it's a 'special' serial for 'Wesson & Harrington.

Barrel looks to be D&T for scope mount but I can't see holes under sight. 

Any clarification would be appreciated.

Thanks...
Think as if you LIFE depends on it... IT does..!  Be Well...

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Wesson & Harrington - different...
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2012, 07:35:54 AM »
They've been discussed many times before, search is your friend.  ;)

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,247682.msg1099436757.html#msg1099436757
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline rdlange

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Re: Wesson & Harrington - different...
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2012, 08:05:38 AM »
My bad... forgot to search.  Thanks for the links anyway.  Very informative.  You take care of us well.

Thanks.
Think as if you LIFE depends on it... IT does..!  Be Well...

Offline bikerbeans

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Re: Wesson & Harrington - different...
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2012, 11:51:08 AM »
Has the flip up rear sight dovetailed into the barrel breech. 
Thanks...
rd,
Post some photos of that dovetailed rear sight but that doesn't sound factory or maybe not even safe.  I have a W&H 45-70 BC and the only dovetail on the barrel is for the front sight.  A dovetail cut on  the chamber swell would make me nervous.
BB
RIP Tom: Tom Nolan, ( bikerbeans) passed away this afternoon (02-04-2021).

Why be difficult, when with a little extra effort you can be impossible?

Wife's Handis;  300 BLKOUT

MINE:  270W, 308x444, 44 Bodeen, 410 shorty rifled slug gun, 445 SuperMag Shikari, 45 ACP shorty,  45-70 Shikari, 45 Cal Smokeless MZ, 50cal 24" SS Sidekick, 50 cal 24" Huntsman, 50 cal 26" Huntsman, 50 cal 26" Sidekick, 50-70 Govt Shikari, Tracker II 20 ga shorty, 20 ga VR Pardner, 20ga USH, 12ga VR NWTF, 12ga Tracker II shorty WITHOUT scope, 12ga USH, 10 ga  Pardner Smoothbore slug gun & 24ga Profino Custom rifled slug gun.

Offline knight0334

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Re: Wesson & Harrington - different...
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2012, 12:03:23 PM »
They were made in the mid'90s.   I almost bought a W&H Buff Classic back in 1998 or so when Grices in Clearfield PA had them for $279.

Stupid me, I passed up on it.  Still kicking myself.  >:(
RIP ~ Teeny: b.10/27/66 - d.07/03/07

Offline bikerbeans

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Re: Wesson & Harrington - different...
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2012, 12:25:21 PM »
They were made in the mid'90s.   I almost bought a W&H Buff Classic back in 1998 or so when Grices in Clearfield PA had them for $279.


That makes me feel  better, in 2010 I bought an Old Stock NIB W&H BC for $250. 8)
 
BB
RIP Tom: Tom Nolan, ( bikerbeans) passed away this afternoon (02-04-2021).

Why be difficult, when with a little extra effort you can be impossible?

Wife's Handis;  300 BLKOUT

MINE:  270W, 308x444, 44 Bodeen, 410 shorty rifled slug gun, 445 SuperMag Shikari, 45 ACP shorty,  45-70 Shikari, 45 Cal Smokeless MZ, 50cal 24" SS Sidekick, 50 cal 24" Huntsman, 50 cal 26" Huntsman, 50 cal 26" Sidekick, 50-70 Govt Shikari, Tracker II 20 ga shorty, 20 ga VR Pardner, 20ga USH, 12ga VR NWTF, 12ga Tracker II shorty WITHOUT scope, 12ga USH, 10 ga  Pardner Smoothbore slug gun & 24ga Profino Custom rifled slug gun.

Offline wasatch

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Re: Wesson & Harrington - different...
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2012, 01:23:34 PM »
I have recently aquired two, a NIB and used one. I have sent off both barrels to be cut to 26"s redoved tailed on the front and dove dailed just forward of the chamber bulge to accept a Marble buckhorn site. Hope to have them back sometime by the end of April......Why are the gunsmiths so busy? :D
 
They will be big brothers to my H&R .45 carbine.
 
Mike

Offline rdlange

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Re: Wesson & Harrington - different...
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2012, 01:45:02 PM »
Here's pic of breech.  Glad I'm not the only one cutting the barrel shorter.  Barrel is not as nice outside as my other, which I just sold - being too nice to cut.

Stock has a few nicks, but overall good shape.  Rear sight will probably go - older eyes need optics.

Why does everyone else get them for less than me?  I guess Texas being bigger has bigger prices too...
Think as if you LIFE depends on it... IT does..!  Be Well...

Offline bikerbeans

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Re: Wesson & Harrington - different...
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2012, 02:39:09 PM »
rd,
 
I am 99% sure that is an aftermarket rear sight installed by someone beside H&R or W&H.  Anybody out there have thoughts on the wisdom of cutting a dovetail on the front of the chamber swell?  It is a nice looking installation.
 
BB
RIP Tom: Tom Nolan, ( bikerbeans) passed away this afternoon (02-04-2021).

Why be difficult, when with a little extra effort you can be impossible?

Wife's Handis;  300 BLKOUT

MINE:  270W, 308x444, 44 Bodeen, 410 shorty rifled slug gun, 445 SuperMag Shikari, 45 ACP shorty,  45-70 Shikari, 45 Cal Smokeless MZ, 50cal 24" SS Sidekick, 50 cal 24" Huntsman, 50 cal 26" Huntsman, 50 cal 26" Sidekick, 50-70 Govt Shikari, Tracker II 20 ga shorty, 20 ga VR Pardner, 20ga USH, 12ga VR NWTF, 12ga Tracker II shorty WITHOUT scope, 12ga USH, 10 ga  Pardner Smoothbore slug gun & 24ga Profino Custom rifled slug gun.

Offline rdlange

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Re: Wesson & Harrington - different...
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2012, 03:24:21 PM »
Will someone please tell me if I bought a piece of junk or not!  I don't go over trapdoor+ loads anyway.
Think as if you LIFE depends on it... IT does..!  Be Well...

Offline TopperT

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Re: Wesson & Harrington - different...
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2012, 03:42:50 PM »
Are you kidding?????   IMHO, the 32" Buffalo Classic chambered in the wonderful 45-70 is just maybe the single best buy in a Black Powder Cartridge Rifle on this planet.  This rifle simple LOVES 63 grns of FF Swiss Black Powder and a .405 grn cast head.  I even heard it shoots SMOKELESS even better!  Truthfully, IMHO a Wesson & Harrington while maybe not more than a cosmetic brother to the H&R & NEF versions, just seemes to be a nicer rifle.  I'm told this is nonesense....... but I don't know....my W&H version sure "looks" one hell of a lot "richer" than a friends H&R version of the same rifle.

Offline rdlange

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Re: Wesson & Harrington - different...
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2012, 04:09:43 PM »
Thanks Topper... but I'm dizzed about all the comments regarding the rear sight dovetail making the rifle unsafe.  It looks so professional I thought it was factory because I never saw the chinzy plastic base on the 'real' W&H rifles.
Think as if you LIFE depends on it... IT does..!  Be Well...

Offline rdlange

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Re: Wesson & Harrington - different...
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2012, 07:49:09 PM »
Kinda funny actually, my getting upset about people concerned for my safety.  Motivated me anyway... Sights came off, scope went on, barrel is now 28".  We'll see how it shoots.  Won't explode with what I shoot.  So if it 'expands' where the dovetail is I measured and will track any changes.

Thanks all for caring. 


Think as if you LIFE depends on it... IT does..!  Be Well...

Offline bikerbeans

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Re: Wesson & Harrington - different...
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2012, 12:09:58 AM »
Very good looking BC. 8)
 
BB
RIP Tom: Tom Nolan, ( bikerbeans) passed away this afternoon (02-04-2021).

Why be difficult, when with a little extra effort you can be impossible?

Wife's Handis;  300 BLKOUT

MINE:  270W, 308x444, 44 Bodeen, 410 shorty rifled slug gun, 445 SuperMag Shikari, 45 ACP shorty,  45-70 Shikari, 45 Cal Smokeless MZ, 50cal 24" SS Sidekick, 50 cal 24" Huntsman, 50 cal 26" Huntsman, 50 cal 26" Sidekick, 50-70 Govt Shikari, Tracker II 20 ga shorty, 20 ga VR Pardner, 20ga USH, 12ga VR NWTF, 12ga Tracker II shorty WITHOUT scope, 12ga USH, 10 ga  Pardner Smoothbore slug gun & 24ga Profino Custom rifled slug gun.

Offline gcrank1

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Re: Wesson & Harrington - different...
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2012, 12:07:04 PM »
I'll put my neck on the block.......
It isnt the DT thats important, but the amount of steel left in the barrel around the bore. We all know that the greatest pressures are in the breech, and dissipate quite rapidly as the projectile moves downbore. If we look at some of the high velo/high pressure bottleneck cartridges on light contour 'mountain' hunting rifles we see the chamber swell, and a rapid radius to barrel, then a long taper to muzzle. I think we could compare the breech pressures and barrel dia. on those and likely see that on the W&H, even with a nominal (often) DT depth of about .090" there is plenty of steel left for any sane load in the rifle. Remember, the DT bottom is flat and the bore circular, so there is only a 3/8" length of the thinnest barrel wall above the bore, ever increasing in wall downward each side.
For me, I'd do the calc. of steel left at that DT and spend a little time online looking for some reference on pressure drop per inch from ignition with a 45-70 (different loads and powders will vary) and see if there is a chart somewhere on barrel profiling (I know Ive seen such in a gunsmithing book in the past) to see how much steel there 'should' be at those pressures. All just to 'know', and probably just a lot of spinnin' my wheels. I do know that a bunch of muzzleloaders have been running for years, some with pretty big charges of black powder, with a powder drum screwed into the actual beech (the high pressure end) with only a few threads to hold. Think about this: a 7/8" barrel in 45 cal., or .875 - .450, /2 = a barrel wall back there of only .2125. A 15/16" barrel is only slightly better in 45cal. at .245 but in the more common 50cal it is down to .218". I know a lot of people load those heavier than a 45-70.
Food for thought, as always, you are on your own.....
"Halt while I adjust my accoutrements!"
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We are only temporary caretakers of the past heading toward an uncertain future
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Wesson & Harrington - different...
« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2012, 12:31:06 PM »
Here's a QL prediction for a max 350gr Hodgdon levergun load at 39kpsi, pressure ~1" down bore is around 36-37kpsi.

Tim

Case capacity and propellant properties may vary considerably from lot to lot!

**** Input data:                         Date: 11-Mar-2012     Time: 15:19:22
Cartridge................. = .45-70 Govt. SAAMI
Projectile type........... = .458, 350, Hornady FP 4503 with flatbase

Max.avg.pressure(Piezo SAA)= 40000 psi   Shot start / init pressure = 3626 psi
Projectile weight      (gr)= 350         Groove caliber         (in)= 0.456
Length of cartridge    (in)= 2.550       Length of case         (in)= 2.105
Case capacity(Grains Water)= 78.99       Length of projectile   (in)= 0.895
Length of barrel       (in)= 22.000
**** Values calculated:
Seating depth          (in)= 0.450       Volume displaced   (gn H2O)= 18.58
Comb.chamber volume(gn H2O)= 60.42       Projectile travel      (in)= 20.345
**** Input data:
Propellant type........... = Hodgdon H4895
Charge weight..........(gr)= 59.0        Load density......(g/cu.cm)= 0.975
Heat of Explosion  (cal/lb)= 414944      Ratio of spec. heats cp/cv = 1.229
Solid density    (gr/cu.in)= 409.7       Weighting factor...........= 0.8
Burning rate factor Ba(1/s)= 0.629       Pro-/degressivity factor a = 0.164
Burning limit ......... z1 = 0.5         Combust.Chamber Vb(ft³)= 1.385151E-4
Factor.................. b = 1.542       X-S.Area of Bore A(ft²)= 1.122176E-3
Bulk density     (gr/cu.in)= 225.1       Projectile mass mp (lb)= 5.0E-2
Loading ratio           (%)= 109.5       Projectile travel x(ft)= 1.695407E+0

**** Results calculated:
Maximum pressure ........ = 38262 psi    Way of projectile at Pmax = 0.66 in
Muzzle velocity  ......Ve = 2036 fps     Muzzle pressure .......Pe = 4348 psi
Project. energy at muzzle = 3223 ft.lbs  Fraction of powder burnt  = 89.4  %
Projectile travel time from 10% Pmax to muzzle = 1.33 ms

D A N G E R: Load exceeds Maximum Average Pressure ! DO NOT USE THIS LOAD !
Real maximum of pressure inside barrel.
End of combustion after the projectile passes muzzle.

                 Table of progress of computed firing process:

NR.:          x(in)         z (%)         v (fps)       p (psi)       t (ms)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  0             0.000         1.16           0.0           3626        0.0000
  1             0.000         1.20           0.8           3739        0.0014
  2             0.000         1.25           1.9           3908        0.0048
  3             0.000         1.32           3.4           4133        0.0087
  4             0.000         1.41           5.3           4414        0.0134
  5             0.001         1.52           7.6           4748        0.0189
  6             0.002         1.66          10.5           5172        0.0252
  7             0.003         1.83          13.9           5674        0.0321
  8             0.004         2.03          18.0           6268        0.0395
  9             0.006         2.26          23.0           6970        0.0475
 10             0.009         2.54          28.7           7775        0.0560
 11             0.012         2.86          35.5           8711        0.0648
 12             0.016         3.24          43.3           9769        0.0740
 13             0.022         3.67          52.3          10963        0.0834
 14             0.028         4.17          62.7          12297        0.0930
 15             0.036         4.74          74.5          13765        0.1028
 16             0.046         5.38          87.9          15363        0.1127
 17             0.058         6.11         103.0          17082        0.1228
 18             0.071         6.92         119.8          18900        0.1329
 19             0.087         7.82         138.5          20800        0.1430
 20             0.105         8.81         159.2          22749        0.1532
 21             0.126         9.90         181.8          24718        0.1635
 22             0.150        11.09         206.3          26668        0.1738
 23             0.177        12.37         232.8          28563        0.1841
 24             0.208        13.74         261.2          30367        0.1945
 25             0.243        15.21         291.5          32040        0.2049
 26             0.281        16.76         323.6          33555        0.2154
 27             0.324        18.40         357.3          34882        0.2260
 28             0.372        20.11         392.5          36001        0.2367
 29             0.426        21.90         429.1          36900        0.2474
 30             0.484        23.74         466.9          37570        0.2583
 31             0.549        25.64         505.8          38011        0.2694
 32             0.620        27.59         545.7          38233        0.2806
 33             0.639        28.10         556.1          38254        0.2835
 34             0.649        28.38         561.7          38260        0.2851
 35             0.655        28.52         564.7          38262        0.2860
 36             0.658        28.60         566.4          38262        0.2864
 37             0.757        31.03         615.8          38125        0.3003
 38             0.954        35.33         703.3          37270        0.3252
 39             1.150        39.06         779.0          36035        0.3473

 40             1.347        42.36         845.7          34665        0.3675
 41             1.544        45.30         905.1          33277        0.3862
 42             1.741        47.96         958.7          31925        0.4038
 43             1.938        50.39        1007.4          30637        0.4205
 44             2.135        52.62        1052.1          29422        0.4365
 45             2.284        54.20        1083.7          28549        0.4481
 46             2.284        54.20        1083.7          28549        0.4481
 47             2.528        56.46        1129.5          27170        0.4664
 48             2.794        58.66        1175.4          25764        0.4857
 49             3.086        60.81        1221.2          24344        0.5060
 50             3.407        62.90        1267.0          22924        0.5275
 51             3.761        64.93        1312.9          21513        0.5504
 52             4.151        66.90        1358.7          20122        0.5747
 53             4.584        68.82        1404.5          18757        0.6008
 54             5.063        70.68        1450.4          17426        0.6288
 55             5.597        72.49        1496.2          16134        0.6590
 56             6.191        74.23        1542.1          14887        0.6916
 57             6.855        75.92        1587.9          13689        0.7270
 58             7.600        77.55        1633.7          12542        0.7655
 59             8.436        79.13        1679.6          11449        0.8076
 60             9.379        80.64        1725.4          10413        0.8537
 61            10.446        82.10        1771.3           9433        0.9045
 62            11.655        83.51        1817.1           8512        0.9607
 63            13.032        84.85        1862.9           7649        1.0231
 64            14.605        86.14        1908.8           6843        1.0926
 65            16.409        87.37        1954.6           6095        1.1704
 66            18.487        88.55        2000.5           5403        1.2580
 67            19.644        89.11        2023.4           5077        1.3059
 68            20.256        89.39        2034.8           4919        1.3310
 69            20.334        89.42        2036.3           4900        1.3342
 70            20.344        89.43        2036.4           4897        1.3346
 71            20.345        89.43        2036.5           4897        1.3347

Muzzle exit
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain