Author Topic: US Soldier accused of murdering 17 Afghan civilians. (Read 6907 times)

yellowtail3 · « **on:** March 11, 2012, 01:24:34 PM »

This is very grim news... A lot of Afghan civilians murdered by one of our troops, including nine kids.

http://news.yahoo.com/us-soldier-kills-16-afghans-deepening-crisis-164242200.html

teamnelson · « **Reply #1 on:** March 11, 2012, 01:44:34 PM »

Very sad ... a crime that will be punished for certain. And used as a political football as well.

Swampman · « **Reply #2 on:** March 11, 2012, 02:18:56 PM »

My only concern is for the safety our troops that are still there.

yellowtail3 · « **Reply #3 on:** March 11, 2012, 02:21:57 PM »

Quote from: Swampman on March 11, 2012, 02:18:56 PM

My only concern is for the safety our troops that are still there.

Naturally. I expect the parents of the murdered children have other thoughts tonight.

They've got my prayers.

Swampman · « **Reply #4 on:** March 11, 2012, 02:44:57 PM »

I'm not one of them.

mcbammer · « **Reply #5 on:** March 11, 2012, 02:53:49 PM »

It just happened this morning . Wait for all the details . could be a revenge thing , stemming from the 4 soldiers murderd for the Koran burning .

Swampman · « **Reply #6 on:** March 11, 2012, 03:09:31 PM »

Yea, it's ok to burn a woman over there, but don't burn a book.

R.W.Dale · « **Reply #7 on:** March 11, 2012, 03:58:49 PM »

This will pretty much end any ability for future us involvement. Look for a Soviet style withdrawal in the next few months.

Its high time IMO Afghanistan is never going to be a shining example of a Jeffersonian rebublic in the far east. In fact the country is never going to be anything but a war torn despotic buffer zone between nations that don't need to be neighbors

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ironglow · « **Reply #8 on:** March 11, 2012, 04:19:50 PM »

False flag ?

teamnelson · « **Reply #9 on:** March 11, 2012, 04:21:06 PM »

There have been 6 revenge killings against American Service members in the aftermath of the disposal of classified materials, following DOD published protocols for the handling of evidence collected by known terrorists. There is no textual justification for the disproportionate response to the burning of a Qu'ran, in fact one of the last Caliphs personally ordered the destruction (by burning) of all copies of Qu'ran in existence in the Islamic world, save the one in his head. He is highly regarded as one of the purist Caliphs as he protected the Qu'ran from mongrelization (translation). He personally dictated the official version from memory, which has been jealously guarded since. Ironic, isn't it?

Their response has been disproportionate, as has been this soldier's, if in fact it was over the recent killings. I am familiar with another alleged revenge murder spree in OIF, and the details were not as stated in the press release. The truth of this particular event will most likely be lost in the political dialogue, and a SSG will go to jail.

yellowtail3 · « **Reply #10 on:** March 11, 2012, 04:49:42 PM »

What exactly was it in my post that you objected to, Spanky? Was it the prayers for the parents of the murdered children? Anyhow... yours is an uncivil & personal response... that sort of thing is frowned on here, isn't it?

timothy · « **Reply #11 on:** March 11, 2012, 09:50:19 PM »

I dont think his prayers were that the parents would have their revenge, I think he meant that the lord would be with them in their time of grief.

Singleshotsam · « **Reply #12 on:** March 12, 2012, 12:01:10 AM »

-Personal attacks removed by moderator 03/12/12 due to GBO forum rules violations.-

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #13 on:** March 12, 2012, 01:45:33 AM »

I didn't notice why the man shot . Was he set up ? Yes it may sound like I give the man the benefit of doubt as I do. I will support our troops until miss conduct is proved beyond a shadow of doubt. As for book burning or tinkling on dead I think it is blown out of proportion .

ironglow · « **Reply #14 on:** March 12, 2012, 03:59:15 AM »

He will have to face military justice..
Perhaps the military itself and the administration should face the same court. According to this morning's news, this man has already served 3 deployments to Iraq and was doing his 4th deployment there in Afghanistan...all Special Ops. Should he been checked very closely for PTSD ? Perhaps he should have not been deployed at all.
My sympathy goes to the families so terribly hurt by this ..both in Afghanistan and ft Lewis..

Old Syko · « **Reply #15 on:** March 12, 2012, 04:22:31 AM »

I smell another My Lai cover up in need of a patsy. We will again never know the truth.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #16 on:** March 12, 2012, 04:55:16 AM »

Sometimes we are told the truth but it is so simple we choose not to believe it . Other times we are lied to .

magooch · « **Reply #17 on:** March 12, 2012, 04:59:52 AM »

My instinct is to give the soldier the benefit of the doubt. He might have flipped out, but even so, he was doing what he was sent there to do--kill people and break things. If that isn't his purpose for being there, then he shouldn't have been sent in the first place.

m-g Willy · « **Reply #18 on:** March 12, 2012, 05:49:26 AM »

I'm just glad no people were hurt during the shooting spree.

lakota · « **Reply #19 on:** March 12, 2012, 06:27:09 AM »

The bad man is dead so there is not a reason to be there anymore. Bring the troops home and leave that nation to its vices and there wont be any Americans left there to burn their precious books or to go on shooting sprees and thus there wont be anything for the afghans to complain about.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #20 on:** March 12, 2012, 06:50:19 AM »

Are there really innocent people ? Or are there people who will pick sides at a later date ? Are the childern who were 8 years old 10 years ago when we entered the war and now 18 not fighting fot the Muslim side ? War is not nice , there is little room for winning people over . Viet Nam proved that . Hard hearted maybe so but when one side offers perks to support them and the other side kills you if you don't support them it leaves the non combatants little choice in the matter.

guzzijohn · « **Reply #21 on:** March 12, 2012, 08:11:17 AM »

Quote from Shootall:
"Are there really innocent people ? Or are there people who will pick sides at a later date ? Are the childern who were 8 years old 10 years ago when we entered the war and now 18 not fighting fot the Muslim side ?"

Sounds like your making a compelling argument for promoting abortion in every way possible in the middle east.
GuzziJohn

reliquary · « **Reply #22 on:** March 12, 2012, 08:42:46 AM »

I offer my condolences to and prayers for everyone involved.
Having said that, and being serious about it, I can't help but compare the responses of our Pres and the DoD to this incident vs the Ft Hood shootings:
"Let's not jump to conclusions", then, as opposed to "We'll get to the bottom of this and hold everyone involved accountable", now.
"Workplace incident", then, as opposed to "American soldier goes on rampage", now.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #23 on:** March 12, 2012, 08:49:13 AM »

How so ?
What I said was we have been there for 10 years , We supplied them weapons to fight the Russians before that, we went there to find those who attacked us on 9/11. The concept of fighting a clean war seems a waste of time . When we think we can win the hearts of the people with good perks when the other side will kill them if they don't support their side there is not much choice really. Consider that with the fact that many of the childern grow up to fight us . We don't shoot at certian building ( which often become hide outs for the bad guys) some times we don't shoot back because of innocents etc. Some offer that it would look bad for a country as powerful as ours going in and kicking azz on a small country ( to which I would ask how has Viet Nam And other police actions made us look ) . The innocent people nurse their wounded , feed their troops and resupply their soilders ranks with their children. Theyallow them selves to be used as cover . We come and go and the people we leave are worst off . The rest of the world sees this and loses all respect for us. I don't believe abortion is a good thing but even in the Bible complete destruction of ones enemy seemed just.
It seems in the Muslim world if you harm a father the son will seek revenge , should we leave the threat of revenge lurking in our future ? Or should our revenge have been swift and over powering to the point they would go many lifetimes before they could mount another attack or be willing to try one ? Would that have saved lives on both sides ?

teamnelson · « **Reply #24 on:** March 12, 2012, 10:39:57 AM »

Quote from: reliquary on March 12, 2012, 08:42:46 AM

I offer my condolences to and prayers for everyone involved.
Having said that, and being serious about it, I can't help but compare the responses of our Pres and the DoD to this incident vs the Ft Hood shootings:
"Let's not jump to conclusions", then, as opposed to "We'll get to the bottom of this and hold everyone involved accountable", now.
"Workplace incident", then, as opposed to "American soldier goes on rampage", now.

Indeed. doubleplus notgood comes to mind.

hillbill · « **Reply #25 on:** March 12, 2012, 03:10:50 PM »

war is a dirty very complicated deal.it never turns out well for either side. the winning side has a lot of dead and widows and orphans and so does the loseing side.
ill not judge this so called killer until the facts come out. he may very well of just been protecting his life.

Swift One · « **Reply #26 on:** March 12, 2012, 04:24:48 PM »

Quote

Are there really innocent people ? Or are there people who will pick sides at a later date ? Are the childern who were 8 years old 10 years ago when we entered the war and now 18 not fighting fot the Muslim side ? War is not nice , there is little room for winning people over . Viet Nam proved that . Hard hearted maybe so but when one side offers perks to support them and the other side kills you if you don't support them it leaves the non combatants little choice in the matter.

Now that is pure genius. Are you suggesting that I should thank the shooters at The Columbine high school incident because they more than likely saved us from future democratic polititions if those kids had grown up (the victims)? I mean, come on....CO is pretty much a democrat state? Why are you not being charged for breathing my fresh air sir?

saddlebum · « **Reply #27 on:** March 12, 2012, 06:25:39 PM »

I'm sure not trying to excuse what the soldier did, but with the rules of engagement they have to abide by, trying to figure out who to shoot and who not to shoot, who will shoot you and who won't, wondering why the heck are they even there and what they are accomplishing by risking their lives, all the normal stress of a soldier, Afgan allied soldiers suicide bombing them in their tents, and then on top of that, dealing with the revenge killings of their brothers in arms over burning some books that were being used to send secret messages. It's not hard to imagine that someone might "snap". We'll see what they tell us about why he did it.
I don't know all there is to know about Afganistan and why we stay in there, but I sure wish we would get our people the heck out of there. NOW! Maybe this deal will get us headed in that direction.

ironglow · « **Reply #28 on:** March 12, 2012, 11:33:56 PM »

From Reliquary;
" I can't help but compare the responses of our Pres and the DoD to this incident vs the Ft Hood shootings:
"Let's not jump to conclusions", then, as opposed to "We'll get to the bottom of this and hold everyone involved accountable", now.
"Workplace incident", then, as opposed to "American soldier goes on rampage", now."
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
Yes, very interesting how the C-in-C reacts; particularly when this trooper has been deployed in the really tough duty (Spec Ops) some 4 time..and the Ft Hood murderer was never deployed.
I suppose we should have taken a clue from the biased way he looked at the Cambridge police/proffessor case. In that situation, he sure gave us a good example of "not jumping to conclusions"...didn't he.
It looks like the Cambridge cop did eventually screw up...by having a beer with Obama.

teamnelson · « **Reply #29 on:** March 13, 2012, 02:27:22 AM »

Quote from: saddlebum on March 12, 2012, 06:25:39 PM

I'm sure not trying to excuse what the soldier did, but with the rules of engagement they have to abide by, trying to figure out who to shoot and who not to shoot, who will shoot you and who won't, wondering why the heck are they even there and what they are accomplishing by risking their lives, all the normal stress of a soldier, Afgan allied soldiers suicide bombing them in their tents, and then on top of that, dealing with the revenge killings of their brothers in arms over burning some books that were being used to send secret messages. It's not hard to imagine that someone might "snap".

Good line of thinking ... exactly how much ambiguity SHOULD we expect our soldiers to be able to bear up under?

For those that haven't "been there" the absence of a good reason, clear vision, set goals really wears on the conscience. You cannot expect someone to serve morally resolute without providing them a framework. That's the biggest issue I dealt with on the battlefield in my role as Chaplain - it eats at the soul. Then you do that multiple times, and you lose close friends, and the ROE is a joke, and there's no end in sight, and your wife is lonely, and you're missing your children's growing up years, and your life is a perpetual ground hog's day of terror. Your circle of friends gets smaller because its harder to make new connections, and the number of survivors (physical or mental) that started out with you is dwindling. I have troops who have deployed 12 times since 2001 - when is enough enough?

I don't know the details about this SSG, but lets say he snapped, and the Afghan version is true. Do we treat him like the Columbine Shooter? Or have WE the people who voted for our government placed him in harm's way for so long, we've got exactly what a reasonable person should expect? Like a neighbor I once had who kept his Rottweiler chained up outside 24/7 365, except when he went out to beat him. Me, I petted him across the fence, and fed him treats as did my kids, and hed wag his little stump whenever he saw us. I figured one day I was going to hear a scream from my neighbors yard, and I'd run out and that dog would drag over his owner's arm and want to play fetch.