US Soldier accused of murdering 17 Afghan civilians.

[Swampman]

I'm I the only one that thinks they have place these soldiers in jobs that soldiers shouldn't be doing and aren't trained to do?  It isn't their job to make people like the US.  Their job is eliminating people who don't.....period.

[teamnelson]

I'm I the only one that thinks they have place these soldiers in jobs that soldiers shouldn't be doing and aren't trained to do?  It isn't their job to make people like the US.  Their job is eliminating people who don't.....period.

I agree with you completely. I went through 2 workups and 2 deployments with an Infantry BN, the training was to seek out, close with, and destroy the enemy, and the graduation exercise was amazing - tanks, artillery, mortars, air-to-ground coordination, snipers, not to mention plain old boots on the ground assault. Felt like back when I was a SSgt - glorious!

Then we moved over to the "village" and we were suddenly British police officers. They brought in LEO technical advisors to train on detention and questioning ... the same guys who not 48 hours before we were praising for unleashing the dogs of war on an objective, are now being told not to fire. Then we go down range, and more of the same. I went through the new Marine Corps Martial Arts Program for a few belts, and all the moves end with zip tying a detainee. When I went through Line training back in the day, it all ended with a boot to the enemy's head.

It is VERY CONFUSING for our troops to train them in one direction, and then expect them to switch it off and operate counter to their training. Especially when one day the orders come down to berm and clear with force, and the next day its strict ROE and demonstrate trust in local security.

[Old Syko]

I'm I the only one that thinks they have place these soldiers in jobs that soldiers shouldn't be doing and aren't trained to do?  It isn't their job to make people like the US.  Their job is eliminating people who don't.....period.

Absolutely correct!  This is but another reason they don't send guys our age to places like this. 

[ironglow]

  You guys are right on.. never could see troops as "peacekeepers", Soldiers & Marines are trained to kill people and break things.
 If they want peacekeepers..send in a Shirley Temple battalion to win them over.  On second thought, only use them among civilized people, don't send a thousand Shirley Temples into a Taliban area..

[SHOOTALL]

 Are there really innocent people ? Or are there people who will pick sides at a later date ? Are the childern who were 8 years old 10 years ago when we entered the war and now 18 not fighting fot the Muslim side ? War is not nice , there is little room for winning people over . Viet Nam proved that . Hard hearted maybe so but when one side offers perks to support them and the other side kills you if you don't support them it leaves the non combatants little choice in the matter.   

Now that is pure genius.  Are you suggesting that I should thank the shooters at The Columbine high school incident because they more than likely saved us from future democratic polititions if those kids had grown up (the victims)?  I mean, come on....CO is pretty much a democrat state?  Why are you not being charged for breathing my fresh air sir?

Ok where did I offer that ? Did CO attack the WTC ?  Or is it you find Americans with a different political views than yours enemy ?
 
What I offered is not genius ( thank you for the compliment though) but rather reality. When you look you will see many children in Muslim countries are instructed in bombing and killing in prepration for when they will fight those who don't belive as they do ( sorta like those in America that consider Americans with different political views enemy  ). Let me try to make it easier to understand , read slow - Our troops go to great lengths to avoid killing what is precived innocent civilians. A good concept. Reality is the other side forces them to support them or they do it willing. They use terror and murder to achive the help. We try to build schools offer medical help , enomic help etc. The innocent know we will leave and they will pay dearly when we go others try to profit off of it . We almost alway  leave. So there are no innocents as the support for the enemy is the what we call innocents. Many battles are won when great armies lose their support , their resupply, their goods and services , WW2 Germany and Japan come to mind. By tip toeing around targets we leave alot of support in place. I support this by noting all the villages that are cleared only to fall back in enemy hands as we move out of sight. 
I would add that the other side showed little concern when they bombed the world trade center with regard to innocent even from their countries . 

[Raptor]

Yea, He was just being a good christian.

[SHOOTALL]

  You guys are right on.. never could see troops as "peacekeepers", Soldiers & Marines are trained to kill people and break things.
 If they want peacekeepers..send in a Shirley Temple battalion to win them over.  On second thought, only use them among civilized people, don't send a thousand Shirley Temples into a Taliban area..

In reality our speical forces are trained to do way more . They are trained to convert people to helping when it is possible to do so. They can run govts when needed, operated infastructure , train both police and military units etc. So in reality they can in fact do what they were sent to do . The rub is not all people want to be like Americans and our political branch needs to realize this and fight wars the way we can win.

[teamnelson]

Yea, He was just being a good christian.

Your first post ... Welcome to GBO!

[saddlebum]

Yea, He was just being a good christian.

And then on top of all the crap that soldiers have to deal with, there is this! And it's really too bad that this is not all that soldiers have to put up with from Americans. Especially politicians! Soldiers today are taking fire from all sides and I can't see who it is that they can fully trust. Except eachother. It tenses me up just thinking about it, and I'm not in their boots!

[Swift One]

Im about people having their own political views.  You are not my enemy.  But to even consider that killing civilians and children becasue they MIGHT Convert to the bad side is just wrong.  Give em a chance to fall- dont trip them.  Personally, I have seen good and bad muslims.  Its kind of like good blacks and bad blacks. The good ones hate the bad ones worse than we do.  Kind of like some of you crusaders here.  Makes the whole pop look like a bunch of muslim haters.  I hate or like the person, not the creed or color. 

[saddlebum]

"I hate or like the person, not the creed or color. "
 
Just a thought on this statement. Color does not demand an ideology or promote values, (good or bad), or dictate ones behavior. Creed, on the other hand, does.
But I think I get your meaning anyway, eventhough I'm not into the hate for any reason.........

[SHOOTALL]

Im about people having their own political views.  You are not my enemy.  But to even consider that killing civilians and children becasue they MIGHT Convert to the bad side is just wrong.  Give em a chance to fall- dont trip them.  Personally, I have seen good and bad muslims.  Its kind of like good blacks and bad blacks. The good ones hate the bad ones worse than we do.  Kind of like some of you crusaders here.  Makes the whole pop look like a bunch of muslim haters.  I hate or like the person, not the creed or color.

The copncept of using color dosen't fit.
Wars are nation to nation in the conventional sense. The war on terror is political view vs political view , religion vs religion or religion vs political view depending on who you ask. Our president when 9/11 took place said either you are with us or aginst us. The world knew it was a hollow threat from past experinces. You no doubt are correct there are good Muslims and bad ones just like Americans . How do you tell the difference ? How do you look at a crowd of them and pick the good ones ? I mean we can't profile these days . A better example than Blacks would be Japaneese in WW2 . They were isolated so the good ones were not harmed and the bad ones could not harm us. We make no effort to seperate the good from the bad or protect ourselves , to a soilder in the mist of this situation he has to decide the good from the bad , his life depends on it. Some will make a mistake . HEY THE SOILDER WANTS TO LIVE !
Add the fact that the food the innocent woman fixes it taken to the bad guy by his kid so he can stay in his ambush hide and it all becomes clear many innocents are not in fact innocent. Have you seen the news shows where kids were makin/loading rounds for AK's ?
Help me here when was a minimum age set for ememy ?

[teamnelson]

Our own nation has used the language of "fighting from home" during previous wars. Children collected scrap metal, wives and the 4F worked in munitions factories, everyone went to ration cards, victory gardens, and many sent food and things forward to the troops ... all in the name of doing their part. Their role in victory was often applauded with statements like, "we couldn't have done it without you." My dad talked about collecting up scrap lead happy that it would be turned into bullets to kill the Japs or the Jerrys. It would be irrational to claim that a 10 year old Afghani boy who called indirect fire on American patrols is not aware that he is playing a role in a war against an enemy he hates, because his culture hates it.

Only an academic can claim that the line between friend and foe is clear and easily distinguished in our present war. OUR cultural taboo values the innocent ... keep that in mind, ours does; not theirs. WE'RE the ones who have a history of defending women and children, of treating them as non-combatants. Its THE ENEMY in this scenario that has historically never valued innocence or made the distinction. If another Afghani tribesman had come into the village and done the exact same thing this SSG did ... and they have by the way, thousands of times over the history of that land ... it would've been chalked up to just another inter-tribal event. Its BECAUSE the US has a reputation of protecting innocence, that they are using it as a political football right now. Yes, by our own standards, it was wrong. But let's not for a moment project our values on to a completely different culture that does not share our standards.

[lakota]

The more I think about it the more the title of this thread offends me. There hasn't been a trial and a verdict yet so the title is FALSE unless you edit to add the word ALLEGEDLY.

[saddlebum]

The more I think about it the more the title of this thread offends me. There hasn't been a trial and a verdict yet so the title is FALSE unless you edit to add the word ALLEGEDLY.

Good point! The headline from the article in the link that was provided reads, "US soldier kills 16 Afghans, deepening crisis". The word murder and the emphasis on the children was added by the poster.
Still, there is no explanation for the incident and an assumption of guilt with little information.

[magooch]

This kind of thing is likely to happen everytime you send a man to do a bomber's job.
 
"If you kill enough of their people, they'll quit."  That's the only way to fight a war and I believe it was Gen. Lemay that spoke words to that effect.

[ironglow]

The more I think about it the more the title of this thread offends me. There hasn't been a trial and a verdict yet so the title is FALSE unless you edit to add the word ALLEGEDLY.

Good point! The headline from the article in the link that was provided reads, "US soldier kills 16 Afghans, deepening crisis". The word murder and the emphasis on the children was added by the poster.
Still, there is no explanation for the incident and an assumption of guilt with little information.

ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
 
  Saddlebum;
    We should not jump to conclusions because the facts are obviously not available, and some strange things happen in that weird land.. 
    Now I will give you a far-fetched, but possible scenario...  Just suppose this soldier came upon a scene where the Taliban had wiped out whole families..leaving no witnesses, after rounding the neighbors up and grabbing the soldier nearby, they placed the blame on him..while the neighbors who actually didn't see the shooting, gladly took up the anti American chant.
  Now, I know that is far-fetched and probably didn't happen, but a very similar charge was made against Marines in Haditha.
  With that incident a congressman Murtha(D-PA) called the Marines "cold blooded killers" ..
  After all was said & done, the courts-martial exonerated the Marines.  If Murtha ever apologized, I never heard of it..

[Singleshotsam]

The more I think about it the more the title of this thread offends me. There hasn't been a trial and a verdict yet so the title is FALSE unless you edit to add the word ALLEGEDLY.

   Good catch.  I've changed the title of the thread to more accurately represent the content. 

[SHOOTALL]

people in other countries often times don't want to be like us .
war drives our economy .
i don't believe we would sit quiet while being attacked .
TM7 you present a good argument that we should conqure not occupy , it would be easier and the other side would understand their position better.

[Swift One]

I'm just going to sit back and see how this unfolds with the trial.  I have been in a part of the world where some things happened and it would have been easy to just start shooting.  I'm not saying he did it.  But if he did, I am not going to buy into the BS that he was shell shocked or confused, or we are not getting the whoe facts.  I have been in "police action" oversees.  For you arm chair warriors, let me assure you that it's not as hard as you think to operate in those theaters.  Don't shoot until shot upon (there is the golden rule guys).  Yep, you are a cop and nothing else.  That is your job, and guess what all you vets that have not been in the military since the Vietnam war?  Most if not all of your soldiers these days (conventional) are trained like police.  Urban warfare training, crowd control, descilation procedures, and a whole host of other training for fighting in a theater where it's hard to determine who is who.  I think with all the things that are coming out of these theaters recently, it's just time to pull our people out and get them home.  It's becoming obvious that operations over there are falling apart.  There is just nothuing else left to do.

[Swift One]

Swift..,...these x-mil guys will now be recruited for local PD forces.

Actually, There have been a few police depts in my area lately that really take a step back and a hard long look at some of the Combat vets that are putting in apps at the police dept.  We have a guy that works for us out here and is putting in to be a cop.  He was telling me that they keep going over his military psych stuff quite hard.  To me, thats a good thing.  i got no probs with the vets becoming cops- just make sure their head is screwed on straight first.

[teamnelson]

the DoD is terrible at cleaning up thier messes, or even admitting they have a problem in the first place.

TM7, forgive me, but you are typically the first one to say that the alleged perpetrators in any event are actually victims of a larger conspiracy. To be consistent, would you not say that the poor SSG in this scenario is just a victim of a grander conspiracy that is larger than even the DOD? Or are all uniformed members intrinsically a part of the problem, and ergo guilty by default?

Don't get me wrong, if he did what he is charged with, then he is guilty. May I suggest, however, that WE THE PEOPLE get the government we accept. Our troops are still in Afghanistan because WE THE PEOPLE evidently don't want them back here enough to make it happen. Our troops are going on as many as 12 combat tours, losing dozens of their friends, suffering divorce, alienation from children, and on and on ... because WE THE PEOPLE are happy to let it continue. Our troops are exposed to trauma, resulting in those lengthy military psych evals, which now we all look at with suspicion ... because WE THE PEOPLE must want them to be exposed to trauma, risk a psych eval, and possibly never be given a position of trust again in society. Do you know why many stay in service knowing they'll have to just go back out? Because they don't feel like they fit in at home anymore with WE THE PEOPLE, and we're afraid to let them try.

Every battlefield commander knows that even though he cannot personally supervise every individual in his command, he is still ultimately responsible for every action taken by every individual in his command. WE THE PEOPLE put the military into play, so ultimately we are responsible from happens after that, especially if we allow things to continue that we do not think are right. When they come along to fire a commander, stating that he was helpless to effect change, that he felt cornered out by the powers that be, or if he claims ignorance, he's just adding kerosene to his own funeral pyre. Who will come along to WE THE PEOPLE and ask us, why did you allow this to happen if you knew it was wrong?

[SHOOTALL]

That was a good post TeamNelson , it is a shame it had to be written and that it is true. We owe ore troops more !

[Sourdough]

Except for a few Marines we were out of Afganistan when Bush left office.  Why did Obama go back in with the Army?  We need to get out, and if the Teliban get out of control again, bomb them out of existance.  Don't send in troops, let bombers do the work.

[teamnelson]

Except for a few Marines we were out of Afganistan when Bush left office.  Why did Obama go back in with the Army?

Because the guy stroking the checks said we need to keep our country at war. But I'm cynical. 

[reliquary]

Here's a good "read" on the problem by LTC (Ret) Ralph Peters:
 
http://www.aim.org/guest-column/soldier-murders-afghans-generals-murder-soldiers/

[saddlebum]

This is the newest information that I know of...............
 
SEATTLE (AP) — The U.S. soldier accused of slaughtering 16 Afghan villagers last weekend saw his friend’s leg blown off the day before the rampage, his lawyer said Thursday.
 
Seattle attorney John Henry Browne said Thursday night that his client’s family provided him with details, which have not been independently verified. The injured man was another U.S. soldier, Browne said.
 
“His leg was blown off, and my client was standing next to him,” he said.
 
“We have been informed that at this small base that he was at, somebody was gravely injured the day before the alleged incident — gravely injured, and that affected all of the soldiers,” he said.
 
It isn’t clear whether the incident might have helped prompt the horrific middle-of-the-night attack on civilians in two villages last Sunday.
 
The soldier had been injured twice during his three previous deployments to Iraq, and he was loath to go to Afghanistan to begin with, Browne said.
 
Browne declined to release his client’s name, citing concerns for the soldier’s family, which is under protection on Joint Base Lewis-McChord, near Tacoma. But he said the soldier has two young children, ages 3 and 4.
 
The soldier, a 38-year-old father of two who is originally from the Midwest, deployed last December with the 3rd Stryker Brigade, and on Feb. 1 was attached to a “village stability operation.” Browne described him as highly decorated and said he had once been nominated for a Bronze Star, which he did not receive.

[mcbammer]

the DoD is terrible at cleaning up thier messes, or even admitting they have a problem in t                                                                                                                      I would tell my guys there are know bad workers--just bad supervisors.! This SSgt Destroyer is tip of the iceberg; and DoD will be the last to figure it out...or fess up!
.
.
..TM7
.

A   disgruntled   worker   is   trouble    looking    for   a   place   to    happen. A   supervisor    can  nip   problems   in   the  bud   if they   know   what   to   look   for. 

[ironglow]

  It's beginning to look like somebody dropped the ball and deployed a man who was likely suffering from PTSD as well as genuine depression.
  This perhaps explains some of the vicious, violent acts which take place in that part of the world.  With all the fighting, killing and torture going on daily...perhaps many of the residents of the area are suffering from PTSD as well as being accustomed to the bloodshed.

[ironglow]

  It's beginning to look like somebody dropped the ball and deployed a man who was likely suffering from PTSD as well as genuine depression.
  This perhaps explains some of the vicious, violent acts which take place in that part of the world.  With all the fighting, killing and torture going on daily...perhaps many of the residents of the area are suffering from PTSD as well as being accustomed to the bloodshed.

.
Indeed, no doubt PTSD will be his defence, but in final analysis he was acting out what he was trained/programmed to do_ _conscience suppression on full off mode .  Now perhaps you can begin to understand what it is like to live in 'occupied' Palestine and Gaza,,,but that requires empathy....    Reports are coming out that he did not do these deeds alone....what do you think, and where was command and control?
.
.
...TM7
.

  oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
 
   Sorry TM, I can see where residents of these war torn countries could well suffer from PTSD.  There is extreme violence at all times..some by their neighbors ..some of necessity, by the troops..and often the innocent farmer of shopkeeper gets caught up in it.  I can opnly say I am pleased that at least  it is not normally our troops bombing police stations, buses, weddings etc.
 
  Palestine is another case entirely (IMO).  It is quite obvious that if the crazy jihadists would quit their terrorist and rocket launching activities..there would be peace in the area.  Israel is not an expansionist nation, they would leave the borders where they are...but not the crazy jihadists, they want to expand the Palestinian borders.
     
                       Let's take a look at what happens when they do get some land in return for "peace"!  First off, "peace" never follows.. so that's just more lies.  ..But that is OK, because the Israelis are "infidels".. and lying to them is acceptable.
  So as with both the West Bank and Gaza, they were presented with A) useful, productive, arable land.. and the other 2) With neat, functioning cities surounded withj crop land...so what did they do?  They turned it into a garbage dump !
  I don't blame the poor, non-hating farmer or tradesman, but he should realize the violence and destruction are traceable back to his own jihadist neighbors.. and their unrelenting hatred.