US Soldier accused of murdering 17 Afghan civilians.

[reliquary]

TM7:
It's not part of some greater conspiracy or America's fault or because of some failure of command and control.  The best soldiers, from the best units, under the best commanders...can and do crack from the stress. 
What does this event have to do with "living in occupied Gaza or Palestine"... exactly where is that, by the way?  The nation of Israel is a lawfully-created state, under siege by terrorists who are kept in internment camps and told "it's the fault of the Jews".  The Palestinians were told that they could stay when Israel was partitioned, but they voluntarily left and now they're kept in internment camps and pumped full of hatred by other nations, their blood and religious relatives, who won't accept them.  I don't see the connection between that situation and our missions in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Speaking of those missions, though:  It's time to bring the troops home and let that area revert to what it has always been...warring tribal factions under the control of religious lunatics.  We've wasted too much of our nation's blood and treasure on people who don't deserve it and don't understand or want a democratic republic, many of whom want to see us dead. 

[ironglow]

  Right on Reliquary;
    When Israel's modern boundaries were established, they included all of the West Bank and much land on the east bank of the Jordan. Due to the incessant complaints by the Hashemite tribes, Israel ceded much of it's land in a "land for peace" scheme of the time. What did they get  for it, besides 2-3 major wars and continued terrorist activity ?
 
   Below is a map of the original mandate for post war Israel.  It included what is now Jordan etc....  The Israeli's traded land for promises of "peace".
 
    Note the map of today's Israel... Including the West Bank, Israel has give up more than half of what it was originally entitled to.  You can note the latest notch.. out of the lower left corner of Israel..which is Gaza,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
 
   You are right..time to pull out completely and let those tribes go ahead and cut each other to pieces, it's obvious they are reluctant to part with the 7th century..

[SHOOTALL]

I think you will find Israel took the West Bank and it wasn't part of the orig plan. That is part of the rub , check it out.

[ironglow]

  Nope; the facts stand above..
    After WW2, Israel was to inhabit the entire East & West Bank area..until, as I explained, the Hashemites raised a fuss and got what was called Transjordan....which included today's Jordan and the West Bank and part of Jerusalem. 
  Almost immediately, Jordan started kicking undesireables out of Jordan proper, and they started settling in cruddy refugee camps in the west bank.  In order to divorce themselves from from these undesireables, Jordanians labeled them "Palestinians".
   If the Arabs had been content there, they could be even now, be developing the West Bank to resemble the great democracy to the immediate west of them. Instead, in 1967 they chose war..they chose to assemble and attack Israel.
  When the combined forces of Syria, Egypt, Jordan and other Arab countries were "handed their heads" (figuratively, not in the Islamic style) and begged peace.. Israel decided to keep the occupied portion of their hereditary capitol for 4,000 years (Jerusalem) . 
   I don't blame them, because by the rules of war they could have kept the West Bank, the Sinai penninsula and the Golan Heights.
  If they were expansionist as those Arab countries have tried to be, they would have kept it.  But they only retained the small portion which is part of their 4 millennia old capital city... and a bit of the Golan Heights for.... defensive purposes.
 
   The Israelis have been very patient and understanding.

[SHOOTALL]

But they had no claim to it until they took it .

[ironglow]

But they had no claim to it until they took it .

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   They took it because they were attacked (in 1967)..the age-old axiom.."to the victor goes the spoils".
  The Arabs tried a sneak attack again in 1967.."Yon Kippur war"... and again, they had to sew their collective heads back on..
 
     They don't seem to learn easily..

[SHOOTALL]

They took it because Syria and (now) Egypt were fighting over it . They were requested to stay in the areas they had taken until Lebanon could build up forces to control it they left early causing the unrest that last to this day.
I support the US intrest in Isreal and admire their success but they are not squeeky clean .

[ironglow]

They took it because Syria and (now) Egypt were fighting over it . They were requested to stay in the areas they had taken until Lebanon could build up forces to control it they left early causing the unrest that last to this day.
I support the US intrest in Isreal and admire their success but they are not squeeky clean .

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  No nation or person (especially a politician) is perfectly clean..        ..But in all due respect, I don't know where you are getting your history from. Please review the timeline of the 1967 "Six Day War" (yes, it only took Israel 6 days to kick their collective butts)  http://www.sixdaywar.co.uk/timeline-concise.htm
  I recall hanging upon the news daily at that time, because just months before I was in the military, handling classified material concerning Israel's strength.  I couldn't reassure or talk to people of what I knew..but I was not too worried.  My only concern was that the Arab coalition, forming even then on Israel's borders might sneak attack and split Israel at it's very narrow (12 miles) midsection.
 
   Note on the timeline;
  On May 16th Egypt's Nasser demands the UN remove their observers (don't want witnesses, of course).
 
  On May 18th, U Thant, secy General of the UN, on his own..removes observers..practically guaranteeing  war.
 
  There is no indication that Egypt and Syria were fighting for any land...other than that of Israel..

[rockledr]

Except for a few Marines we were out of Afganistan when Bush left office.  Why did Obama go back in with the Army?  We need to get out, and if the Teliban get out of control again, bomb them out of existance.  Don't send in troops, let bombers do the work.

I normally don't post in these heated forums, but I thought I would set this statement straight. Most people don't know that in early 2007 we started increasing the troops in Afghanistan. How do I know this? I have been in the Army for 23 years. I was on the Afghan-Pakistan border in early 2007 due to come home in FEB. Most of my unit had already left our FOB, some even madde it to the states. We got extended for 4 months, turning a year long deployment into 16 months. So our build up of troops started in 2007. Sorry for getting off topic. I hoope my post didn't come off harsh as that is not what I intended. Thanks for listening.

[SHOOTALL]

actually Syria had declared ownership of Lebanon many times .

[rockledr]

Now to the topic about our SSG. I believe he suffers from a bad case of PTSD. I don't think this should relieve him of his responsibility in his actions though. If he is tried and found guilty he needs to serve his punishment like a man, whatever it may be. To explain PTSD as I have had several clinical psycologists explain it to me is like this. Every person is born with a capacity for tramatic events, let's call it a bucket. Some have a small bucket and some have 55 gal drums. The thing with these buckets is we can't empty them. When they are full they are full. I have seen great Soldiers break in a matter of minutes. Not to the the extent of our SSG but none the less break.
I will give a quick example. I had a Hatian immigrant wasn't even a citizen, had a green card. He was a gunner on one of my vehicles. He got shot through the front of his kevlar, the bullet struck his forehead and traveled around his head between the skin and skull and exited in the back of his head. He got evacuated for two days and came right back to the patrol. When I first saw him I gave him a huge hug and welcomed him back. He told me he couldn't be a gunner anymore. He said there was no way he could get in that turret and man a .50 cal. He said he could be a dismounted troop but not a gunner. He became a citizen before w left to come back to the states and he has my utmost respect for the things he did while deployed for his new country.
Everyone reaches a breaking point is what I am saying. If the story is true and this SSG had access to alcohol that just makes the PTSD worse. I know this from personnal experience. Sorry for the long post. If you made it this far thanks for taking the time.

[ironglow]

Now to the topic about our SSG. I believe he suffers from a bad case of PTSD. I don't think this should relieve him of his responsibility in his actions though. If he is tried and found guilty he needs to serve his punishment like a man, whatever it may be. To explain PTSD as I have had several clinical psycologists explain it to me is like this. Every person is born with a capacity for tramatic events, let's call it a bucket. Some have a small bucket and some have 55 gal drums. The thing with these buckets is we can't empty them. When they are full they are full. I have seen great Soldiers break in a matter of minutes. Not to the the extent of our SSG but none the less break.
I will give a quick example. I had a Hatian immigrant wasn't even a citizen, had a green card. He was a gunner on one of my vehicles. He got shot through the front of his kevlar, the bullet struck his forehead and traveled around his head between the skin and skull and exited in the back of his head. He got evacuated for two days and came right back to the patrol. When I first saw him I gave him a huge hug and welcomed him back. He told me he couldn't be a gunner anymore. He said there was no way he could get in that turret and man a .50 cal. He said he could be a dismounted troop but not a gunner. He became a citizen before w left to come back to the states and he has my utmost respect for the things he did while deployed for his new country.
Everyone reaches a breaking point is what I am saying. If the story is true and this SSG had access to alcohol that just makes the PTSD worse. I know this from personnal experience. Sorry for the long post. If you made it this far thanks for taking the time.

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  Thanks Rockledr;
   I guess that's about as clear an explanation as I have ever heard, concerning PTSD...and it makes sense.
  We had a discussion here some months ago, trying to figure why, condidering 2 guys who have been into the thick of it..one can discuss his experiences, while the other can't..without  nearly breaking down.
  I considered men who can talk about it..such as the well known Sgt York, who advised on the movie.  Some of us concluded that probably his strong faith could also be a key..allowing him to "compartmentalize" the experience.
     ...Perhaps enlarging that bucket a bit ?

[rockledr]

IG
I do agree a good religous base helps one reconcile with the tramatic stress. We all know a good chat with whoever we believe our God is helps ease the mind. So it definately helps with maling the bucket bigger.

[reliquary]

I want to once again point out the irony involved in this case:
 
Our President has said, "We'll get to the bottom of this and hold accountable all who were involved."  Our Defense Secretary has commented that he "could receive the death penalty."  Most of the media and all the Afghans want him tried and quickly executed and are downplaying the stress he was under...the brain trauma he had...the probable PTSD he suffers from, caused by multiple deployments in combat.
 
Flashback to the "poor, confused Major Hasan" who killed 13 and wounded 29 at Fort Hood.  Our President said, "Let's not jump to conclusions".  His sycophants and the mainstream media are calling it a workplace incident, ignoring the fact that he was coached by terrorists, was identified as a security risk by investigators prior to the shooting, had posted "Hate America" jihadi-supporting statements on the Net, and was shouting "Allahu Akbar" as he shot unarmed Americans.  His defense is that he suffered PTSD from hearing real soldiers talk about combat, despite never having been deployed himself.  And now, we're still waiting, over two years later, for his case to come to trial.
 
Stay tuned for more hypocrisy from above.
 
 
 

[SHOOTALL]

That about sums up  America the offended

[yellowtail3]

The army has officially charged Bales with murder... but the number of victims is up to 17. Now, this is still just alleged. The US Army says one of their own has committed mass-murder - but for all we know, Bales might be completely innocent, just like that other suspect, Maj. Hasan. But I'll go out on a thick branch and speculate that they're both guilty. We'll see.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/envoy/sgt-robert-bales-charged-17-counts-premeditated-murder-201507619.html

I hope it all turns out to be a hoax; the idea that one of our own would gun down children and women, is very distressing.

[Swampman]

Innocent or guilty, I hope they let him go.

[ironglow]

It appears he was mistreated and should not have been deployed..  Looking for an address where one can contribute to a defense fund, if needed...

[yellowtail3]

A defense fund... Bales may need that, maybe even more so than his fellow soldier accused of murder, Maj. Nidal Hasan.

Both of them (allegedly) committed murder; Hasan allegedly murdered fellow soldiers, while Bales allegedly murdered 17 civilians (mostly women and young children, based upon news reports).
Latest news is, Bales went out and killed some of the kids, then returned to base - maybe for more ammo? - and went out a second time to kill a few more.

[size=78%]http://news.yahoo.com/apnewsbreak-us-says-soldier-split-killing-spree-202900530.html;_ylt=AgjWmFRBj99dytN_qW2AsRus0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTNtY3B1ajZwBG1pdANKdW1ib3Ryb24gRlAEcGtnAzg4NDM3ODM1LThhYjktMzg4Yi04Yjc1LTdlNzg5OTU4OWM0YwRwb3MDMgRzZWMDanVtYm90cm9uBHZlcgNjMTFiMmJkMC03NWZiLTExZTEtYmZiZi04OWEzZWRjOGMwODg-;_ylg=X3oDMTFrM25vcXFyBGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRwc3RhaWQDBHBzdGNhdAMEcHQDc2VjdGlvbnMEdGVzdAM-;_ylv=3[/size]
Very grim.
Hasan  & Bales - I still think they're both guilty, but I shouldn't pre-judge....

[ironglow]

A defense fund... Bales may need that, maybe even more so than his fellow soldier accused of murder, Maj. Nidal Hasan.

Both of them (allegedly) committed murder; Hasan allegedly murdered fellow soldiers, while Bales allegedly murdered 17 civilians (mostly women and young children, based upon news reports).
Latest news is, Bales went out and killed some of the kids, then returned to base - maybe for more ammo? - and went out a second time to kill a few more.

[size=78%]http://news.yahoo.com/apnewsbreak-us-says-soldier-split-killing-spree-202900530.html;_ylt=AgjWmFRBj99dytN_qW2AsRus0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTNtY3B1ajZwBG1pdANKdW1ib3Ryb24gRlAEcGtnAzg4NDM3ODM1LThhYjktMzg4Yi04Yjc1LTdlNzg5OTU4OWM0YwRwb3MDMgRzZWMDanVtYm90cm9uBHZlcgNjMTFiMmJkMC03NWZiLTExZTEtYmZiZi04OWEzZWRjOGMwODg-;_ylg=X3oDMTFrM25vcXFyBGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRwc3RhaWQDBHBzdGNhdAMEcHQDc2VjdGlvbnMEdGVzdAM-;_ylv=3[/size]
Very grim.
Hasan  & Bales - I still think they're both guilty, but I shouldn't pre-judge....

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   I think they are both guilty of the crimes they are accused of.  The difference being one was deployed 4 times in heavy combat, suffered a head wound on the third deployment and SHOULD NOT (IMO) been deployed the fourth time..
  The other never was deployed, never wounded and shouted insane slogans as he killed his fellow soldiers. 
  The first one likely had no choice..the second one made his choice..

[Spanky]

I call it payback or "an eye for an eye"... let's not forget how many Americans have been murdered by Muzzies.  
 
 
 
Spanky

[Swampman]

Nothing lost except a good American soldier.

[yellowtail3]

Nothing lost except a good American soldier.

Well, there is the matter of murdered women and children. WWJS?

[Scibaer]

well what are the chances that those murdered , would have grown up or become bombing, american killing,  islamic terrorist and pervayors of muslim dogma exciting others to kill , bomb and carrying on that diseased religion ?

[BUGEYE]

WWJD??  he wouldn't want anyone to kiss up to a religion started by a pedophile.

[1marty]

the government and people don't want us there anymore. Afghan troops have been killing our soldiers-about time we declare victory and leave.

[Scibaer]

islam and the muslim religion is no religion at all, its a cult of control  and death.
spreads like a disease and gets into peoples minds like an infection.
there is nothing positive about it. christian nations been fighting the stem of this godless horde of evil since 800 A.D.
now the american soldier is fighting against it, yet some in this country is letting it in with open arms and setting things in motion that cant be undone, things that will cause this pestilence to ruin what it left of this country, that our forefathers died for.

[Swampman]

well what are the chances that those murdered , would have grown up or become bombing, american killing,  islamic terrorist and pervayors of muslim dogma exciting others to kill , bomb and carrying on that diseased religion ?

It just saves money in the long run.

[Scibaer]

how much money did that soldier save the american people by eradicating some future muslim killers ?
i duuno, there is no way of telling , but i know them specific terrorist wont be killing americans down the road, and im damn good with that

[BUGEYE]

I'm all for pulling out of the middle east, but the muzzies aren't going to change.  they will still attack us and our interests at every opportunity.
I say when they do, bomb them into oblivion.