rimmed 5.56/.223 cartridges

[SHOOTALL]

that would be true of perfect bullets .but bullets are not perfect , the fact that some shoot better at slowers speeds would bring into question if a bullet can be over stabilized would it not ?

[moorepower]

that would be true of perfect bullets .but bullets are not perfect , the fact that some shoot better at slowers speeds would bring into question if a bullet can be over stabilized would it not ?

Or it is a bad bullet. AT .22-250 should be able to stabilize a 75 grain bullet in a true 1-9 twist barrel. I would think that a .225 Winchester would also.

Im not too sure that 'overstabilization' isnt a myth........

I agree, I have said many times, I do not believe you can OVER- stabilize a bullet.

CW

I think it is beyond a myth. If it is a bad bullet, it will give you a worse group, at higher speeds, but that does not mean it is overstabilized.

[gcrank1]

I think we've now strayed far from the OPs post, and into the realm where we may need a new (again) topic.........
For his purposes, the 1:9 will certainly be better than the previous 1:12, giving the option of much better BC bullets, though perhaps not quite as good as the 1:7; but for his stated range (still short range by mil, std's) he should have a fun time going through all the available accuracy options. I know I could spend a few years at it, anyway......but ya'll know Im slow...... .

[SHOOTALL]

It might be more discriptive to note it has passed the point of stablization    better to say you can spin faster than is needed to reach stablization. Stablization is much like pregant either it is or isnt . If more spin gives a tighter group then you had not reached stablization . If more speed spreads the group you have passed stablization. There may be a range of acceptable stablization but only one point is the true point of best stablization. So over or under would apply to the range .

[Couger]

219 Wasp won't clean up the 223 chamber.  Tim

Oh!!??  Your diagram looks like it would!  Just how "sloppy" is that .223 chamber?  If it had an extra long throat/leads to the rifling then I could see a problem.

The 223 is .060" longer to the shoulder/neck datum than the Wasp.  Tim

So close, but no cigarette!       (and can anyone say "casehead separation?"    )

[BAGTIC]

"So close, but no cigarette!       (and can anyone say "casehead separation?"
 
Unlikely you would get a casehead separation. After all you would be firing a rimmed case that headspaces on the rim. What you would get is a fireformed case that would not fit in your sizing die.

[LaOtto222]

Obviously, under stabilization is a big problem. Over stabilization is not as much a problem today as it used to be, because of the quality bullets that we have today. Any imperfections in bullets will be exaggerated the faster they spin. Then the bullet needs to hold together too, so you need a thick jacket if you are going to spin it like crazy. Many times a thick jacketed bullet will not be as accurate as a thinner jacketed bullet, but there always exceptions. I have 2 bolt action 223 with 1 - 14" twists and they shoot 40 - 50 grain bullets just fine. I have posted bullet groups here from one of those rifles.

Here is one I set up for 40 grain bullets



Here is the other one with 50 grain V-Max


 I also have a 1-8" twist 22 BR that was designed to shoot 75 - 80 grain bullets. I try to match up the twist to what I want to shoot, but if you do no know what you want to shoot or you are stuck with a fast twist, do not let that stop you. Chances are you will find a light bullet that will work for you.

Edit - I forgot to mention that the above rifles had their throats cut for the bullets I wanted to shoot. The 40 grain has a short throat and the 22 BR has a very long throat for the Hornady 75 A-Max

Good Luck and Good Shooting

[broom_jm]

I hope the OP is still around and not run off by all the "stabilization" comments.

I've been wanting to do the same thing for a long time.  I have a 6.5JDJ, which is a 225 Winchester case necked UP and blown out.  It's a 14" Contender barrel and was my first wildcat round.

If I were the OP and wanted to get a full range of "experience" from this endeavor, I would consider having his barrel rechambered to 225....AI!  That's what I intend to do with mine, anyway.  It gives you a little more powder room to play with and a true wildcat experience, complete with fire-forming loads and relatively uncharted waters on the reloading side of things.  Safe to say you can load some of the heaviest 22 caliber bullets available and still get them to stabilize, with this cartridge.

I hope we hear back from him. 

Edit:  Fixed definition of 6.5JDJ 

[LaOtto222]

"I hope we hear back from him." - broom_jm
His last post was March 14th (two weeks ago) probably will not hear back from him on this subject. If he wants to soak in the learning experience, twist rates could be included or not. I personally enjoy the disscussion. Some times I participate and some times I do not. It is better to have too much information than not enough. I have also found that there is a lot of mis-information out there and you have to be savy enough to know what is the truth and what is not. You get this with good information, alot of it comes right here on this forum. I too, hope that burdickjp comes back, there is always room for more.
"I have a 6.5JDJ, which is a 225 Winchester case necked down and blown out." - broom_jm
The 6.5 JDJ is indeed formed from 225 Winchester cases, however they are necked up not down
Good Shooting and Good Luck

[burdickjp]

I'm waiting to hear back from Eabco about .224 BRM reamers.  Emailed them.  Got nothing back.  They have relatively inexpensive brass and dies for .224 BRM, and it looks to be in the direction I want to go.


I'm also curious the effects of powder load on velocity for these larger cases.  For instance:  if I load a .223 Rem and a .224 BRM with the same bullets and powder, what will the differences in ballistics be?  As I said:  I'm wanting to plink with this.  While I want to plink in a very precise way, from a long distance, if the larger case capacity will require more powder to provide the same ballistics, then the point may be moot.

[LaOtto222]

burdickjp - Glad you did not give up on us! Keep us posted on your progress. We always like to hear success stories and  are at the ready with suggestions if you are having difficulty.


Good Luck and Good Shooting

[broom_jm]

If it were me, I'd pass on the 224 BRM and get a 225 or 225 AI.  Stronger brass and will take full advantage of the H&R frame strength.  Also, I'm just not a big fan of EABCO...IME, their customer service is spotty and they are downright rude, sometimes.

[burdickjp]

Did some digging and I think 219 Zipper Ackley Improved is more in line with what I'm wanting to accomplish, and should clean up in the .223 Rem chamber.  Reloadbench shows it as having the same OAL as .223 Rem.  Midway has dies and reamers.


Advantages:
should be easier to ream the chamber
the Ackley Improved nature of the cartridge should make brass last longer and be more accurate
much more unique
would get to learn how to form brass


Disadvantage:
can't rent reamer, have to buy
dies are MUCH more expensive
brass unavailable

[Dinny]

My favorite riflesmith, Dwhite, has a new "H-R 22" rimmed cartridge in the works. He rechambered 5 H&R .223 Ultras and had impressive results. He's waiting a week or so to release the info pending a 100 gun contract agreement. If you would be interested in more info, please email me. 


Thanks, Dinny

[quickdtoo]

Did some digging and I think 219 Zipper Ackley Improved is more in line with what I'm wanting to accomplish, and should clean up in the .223 Rem chamber.  Reloadbench shows it as having the same OAL as .223 Rem.  Midway has dies and reamers.


Advantages:
should be easier to ream the chamber
the Ackley Improved nature of the cartridge should make brass last longer and be more accurate
much more unique
would get to learn how to form brass


Disadvantage:
can't rent reamer, have to buy
dies are MUCH more expensive
brass unavailable

Fred has the reamer for rent, CH4D will cut the dies for $83.01, be aware there are 28 versions of the 219 Zipper Improved according to CH4D, so it would be important to know what reamer Fred provides. Brass is reformed 30-30.

Tim

http://www.4-dproducts.com/display.php?group=Rifle+Calibers

http://www.ch4d.com/catalog/dies/caliber-list/?field=desc&query=219+zipper

[burdickjp]

Did some digging and I think 219 Zipper Ackley Improved is more in line with what I'm wanting to accomplish, and should clean up in the .223 Rem chamber.  Reloadbench shows it as having the same OAL as .223 Rem.  Midway has dies and reamers.


Advantages:
should be easier to ream the chamber
the Ackley Improved nature of the cartridge should make brass last longer and be more accurate
much more unique
would get to learn how to form brass


Disadvantage:
can't rent reamer, have to buy
dies are MUCH more expensive
brass unavailable

I'm thinking reloadbench has their dimensions wrong...

[moorepower]

  I think you want a longer oal than the .223, so YOU can decide how much jump or jam you would like.

[burdickjp]

According to ABCs of reloading, a larger volume case will require a larger mass of powder to produce the same pressure.  Not yet sure if that is a good thing or not.

[moorepower]

yes

[burdickjp]

The question is:  will I need any more pressure than could be provided in a shorter case, which would still have more volume than the .223 Rem case?


.223 reloading stuff on the way this week.  Will be experimenting with .223 stuffs probably for the rest of the summer and be doing more research until it freezes.  Should be rechambering this winter.

[burdickjp]

Got bored today and started playing with CAD.  Took the dimensions of some SAAMI chambers and overlaid them for the hell of it.  The comparison chamber is a .223 Rem SAAMI



This is a .223 Rem and .225 Win chamber



This is a .30-30 chamber with a 40 deg shoulder, meeting the .223 at the shoulder/neck intersection.  I'm calling this Proposition 1




This is the above on a .303 British chamber.  This is Proposition 2



This is the above with a 23 degree shoulder.  This is Proposition 3



This is the above on a .30-30 chamber.  This is Proposition 4



I calculated the area of each drawing and used it to put together an area ratio compared to .223 Rem, which will allow some semblance of volume ratio without having to make solids of revolution, which I haven't done since I took Calc 1. I will be doing so eventually.  In order of least to greatest:
.223 Rem  0.638567 in^2
Prop 4 0.675793 in^2 1.0582962:1 compared to .223 Rem
Prop 1 0.686215 in^2 1.0746171:1
Prop 3 0.708853 in^2 1.1100683:1
Prop 2 0.716505 in^2 1.1220514:1
.225 Win 0.764076 in^2 1.1965479:1


It was a fun exercise.  I'm thinking anything based on the .303 Brit would need to be "straightenned" to prevent excessive case stretching, but that's just a hunch based on the flashlight-beam-sized scope of understanding I have of this so far.  It's just a good looking cartridge, though, and I don't think it gets enough love here.  The Aussies apparently made a bunch of wildcats on them.
I have PO Ackley's books on the way, and am looking forward to reading them.  I've been told they are a staple of any wildcatter's diet.

[Dinny]

Reading those numbers and trying to make sense of it all made me realize I must have a mini mag-light (with nearly dead batteries) beam-sized scope of understanding. Be careful eating books, would hate for you to get a paper cut in your esophagus.

The 303 does look good for a parent case.


Thanks, Dinny

[briannmilewis]

This is my completely biased opinion after a lot of research about what makes BR cartridges the most accurate.

Put a 30 deg shoulder on it and start the shoulder at 1.571" from the base (case length x .7072).

Whatever you decide will be right.

[broom_jm]

FWIW - The cost of 225 Winchester brass and 303 British brass is almost identical.  With the 225, the reamer and dies may be a bit easier to locate and probably less expensive.  You'll have a LOT more load data to work with, unless you can find an Aussie site with a bunch of 303/22 data?

I freely admit to being heavily biased; I think the 225 Winchester is among the best 22 centerfire rounds ever designed and hate that it never really got off the ground.  The semi-rimmed case, redesign of the M70 and the introduction of the 22-250 were just too many obstacles to overcome, and yet here it is, 50 years later and it's still around! 

It's the easiest way to get something unique from your 223 barrel and, IMHO, it's the perfect case capacity for a hot 22!   

[burdickjp]

I would not use a .303 case.  As aesthetically pleasing as I think they LOOK, I believe they hold no merit over using a .30-30 case.  As of my current flashlight-beam-sized base of knowledge, I would probably pick proposition 1.
What is the advantage of a semi-rim over a full rim in this application?

[moorepower]

This is my completely biased opinion after a lot of research about what makes BR cartridges the most accurate.

Put a 30 deg shoulder on it and start the shoulder at 1.571" from the base (case length x .7072).

Whatever you decide will be right.

Like the .222 that ruled BR years, till the PPC showed up? It still holds the record as the smallest group. The PPC handles the wind better, less deflection.

[Dinny]

What is the advantage of a semi-rim over a full rim in this application?

I'm completely biased and will likely start a flame war, but the more rim the better in a single shot rifle. I feel it gives a better headspace and ejects/extracts better.

This is just my opinion.


Thanks, Dinny

[mcwoodduck]

What about 22 High Power?
Would it work as a rimmed 223 round?
 

[Catshooter45]

Dinny,
 
I agree with you.  I think a full rim is the best.  The 225 is really semi-rimmed.  Mine works well and shoots very well.  I really wanted the Zipper and almost cried when I found it it wouldn't clean up the chamber.
 
Don't worry, I have no facts or figures to back up my opinion about the rims and certainly wouldn't like to get into a shooting match with Sourdough and his 30-06s.  He'd kick my butt fer sure.
 
Still want rims though.   
 
 
Cat

[burdickjp]

I could always pick up forming dies and form my own .225 from .30-30 or .25-35 brass.  This would allow me to keep the rim, and wouldn't involve that much work in the chamber.