Author Topic: Mouse gun (Read 3522 times)

SHOOTALL · « **on:** March 15, 2012, 02:09:48 AM »

OK lets look at it from a different view . The gun not the bullet. Here we talk the platform and how it will work. It might be good to include a very small handgun in ones BOB. I have been looking at the 22 Mag mini revolver with short bbl. It and a box of the new ammo ment for SD in the revolver would take up little room or add much weight.
Yes this is not a gun that I would carry everyday , its not one I would choose first . I have read that the new ammo has made this gun worth looking at when deep concelment is nessary. It would be the one I would keep hidden and used only in an emg. It would be easier to hide such a gun . It would only need ammo to run as no mags that could get misplaced or damaged are needed.

Any other ideas ?

don heath · « **Reply #1 on:** March 15, 2012, 10:42:05 PM »

Have a NAA mini mag- great piece of kit. Mine has decent sights and a man at 25paces would be in real trouble and I would hate to get hit with one.

Also the mag ammo because of the bullet and seal (no inside lube) has a shelf life decades longer than 22LR

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #2 on:** March 16, 2012, 01:13:29 AM »

thanks

GrassLakeRon · « **Reply #3 on:** March 16, 2012, 01:27:44 AM »

So the two variables here are size and no mags? I would go with something a bit more powerful and here is why, when hunting a 22 cal is more then enough to feed you where game is available, but most reasons for one mean that people are the reason to carry. I have heard/read more then one story about folks high on crack/coke/etc.... being able to continue to attack an officer even after several shots to the trunk area leave me wanting more. We can't always get in a head shot or hit where a 22 mag would stop the person, so I would argue for something more....... I love my 22 for small game, don't get me wrong, but if a 300 lb person is a possible reason I have to carry, then something more is needed.

Say a light/small frame .38/.357.........

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #4 on:** March 16, 2012, 01:31:15 AM »

I almost always have a 340 PD with me where legal. Its a 357 mag . The other hide out gun would be just that. I realize that it would be used at contact distances in a SD mode .

Lost Farmboy · « **Reply #5 on:** March 16, 2012, 11:01:40 AM »

SHOOTALL I think it's a great idea. That would be a true mouse gun.

A lot more effective that sticks and stones.

tacklebury · « **Reply #6 on:** March 16, 2012, 12:56:36 PM »

Bought my wife a 12 oz. pink lady that'll shoot 38special +P level loads. It's accurate (6" group at 30 yards) and holds up well. We've put a few hundred through it and still looks brand new. They make the same gun in a tigerstripe camo steel frame version that's 16 oz. though and I've seriously been thinking about picking one up for a backpack gun.

http://www.charterfirearms.com/products/Charter_38_Special_Tiger_13825.html

Couger · « **Reply #7 on:** March 16, 2012, 09:34:19 PM »

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Victor3 · « **Reply #8 on:** March 17, 2012, 12:25:59 AM »

Mouse gun?

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_125&products_id=11582&osCsid=51d3c52156d3a89dc2ac625f5e1ca86e

tacklebury · « **Reply #9 on:** March 17, 2012, 05:41:48 AM »

Quote from: Victor3 on March 17, 2012, 12:25:59 AM

Mouse gun?

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_125&products_id=11582&osCsid=51d3c52156d3a89dc2ac625f5e1ca86e

Now that's just awesome!

I can just imagine my wife jumping about 3 foot when it went off, lol.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #10 on:** March 19, 2012, 01:19:52 AM »

Quote from: Victor3 on March 17, 2012, 12:25:59 AM

Mouse gun?

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_125&products_id=11582&osCsid=51d3c52156d3a89dc2ac625f5e1ca86e
[/quoe]

turk762 · « **Reply #11 on:** March 19, 2012, 05:38:47 AM »

I dont care what anyone says. Any gun is better then no gun. If for concealing purposes you need something more concealable its better then just fists. It will give you the fighting chance. I would rather have a 12 gauge then a handgun in a shoot out or confrontation, but that is not likely (hard to conceal).

To many nay sayers out there, even if it does not immediatly kill them, it will make them rethink the situation over, and if they do decide to attack, every second they run after you or fight with you they being weakened giving you a better fighting chance then going without a gun because it is to heavy or unconcealable.
Once again any gun is better then no gun. Even on drugs, once the pumper quits pumping blood or runs out of blood the brain dies, No exceptions.

don heath · « **Reply #12 on:** March 19, 2012, 08:46:03 PM »

And to use an African example- it is said that once in his life, every male lion kills a honey badger. After that he gets the heck out of the way when one walks past. - yes he can kill kill it, no it isn't worth it. Same goes for scum. even if I die (and I am going to one day anyway) he must be in no position to go off and harm others.

One thing I did learn in various wars- if you are under armed- aim low. A bullet in the groin is far more disabling than a bullet through the lung - and the resulting scream far more unsettling to the rest of the gang than the '%¤#"! I'm Hit' from an upper torso shot that isn't immediately fatal.

I have said it before and will say it again- shot placement counts and ALL handguns are underpowered. I took a 7,62x39 bullet through the shoulder with bone fragments blown into my lung- yes it hurt- yes I dropped the machine gun I was carrying, No it didn't stop me drawing my revolver and ending the matter. On another occasion we were running forward to contact when a 7,62x39 bullet went through my right leg. I promptly sat down and the Sgt major turned to me and roared- 'stand up- the men expect to see their officer on his feet' So I stood up and hobbled forward with my shoe rapidly filling with blood. Later, after applying a dressing I drove myself 5hrs to the nearest hospital (only the sgnt major and I had drivers licenses - and he stayed with the men to police the battlefield)

Victor3 · « **Reply #13 on:** March 20, 2012, 01:17:29 AM »

I've had a NAA mini-revolver in .22lr for ~25 years. For me, I don't think it's suitable for much but a last (the very last) ditch gun. It's just too difficult to operate in my gorilla hand. Hard to hold onto while cocking the hammer. Trying to fire it using HV ammo is difficult. With CCI Stingers, it's punishing. With anything but CB caps it's not easy to get a fast 2nd (let alone a 3rd - 5th) shot off because the thing rocks back violently in my hand. It's also hard for me to point well. Always shoots high unless I'm concentrating on bending my wrist downward to get the barrel level with the target.

My Baby Browning is larger/heavier than the NAA revolver but's still very compact. I can hold onto it easily while rapid firing the entire mag, with reasonable 5 yd accuracy. I think the ability to get off several shots in a hurry is important when we're talking about low-powered ammo. Unlike the NAA, I can see the sights if need be. It's also free of the pocket-snagging hammer, spur trigger and sharp edges around the cylinder of the NAA. It has has a trigger guard and place to fit the web of my hand under the rear of the frame that helps keep it from moving in my grip.

Particular hands can only handle so much gun, be it small or large. The pistols below represent the outside limits of what I can operate comfortably, and both of them are pushing it a bit...

Anywhoo, if you want a hideout gun that's more user-friendly, I'd consider a tiny auto before a micro-revolver. Another small auto I had years ago (which is still in production) is this one...

http://www.berettausa.com/products/model-21-bobcat/

Being double action with an exposed hammer and simple controls, it's good for self defense. Larger than my Browning but not by much. 7 round mag in .22 and 8 in .25 is nice (that's 9 shots if you tip the barrel up and load one in the chamber), you can actually hit something with it, and it's a real pleasure to shoot. Mine was very reliable.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #14 on:** March 20, 2012, 01:28:30 AM »

If I went small auto I think I would go with the tomcat in 32 but the 32 dosen't reach the power of the 22 mag.

spruce · « **Reply #15 on:** March 20, 2012, 01:26:52 PM »

I'm surprised no one has mentioned a derringer?? Not a fan of them myself, just surprised they weren't mentioned!

The requirements set forth in the original post pretty much dictates the NAA revolver.

Victor3 · « **Reply #16 on:** March 21, 2012, 12:48:33 AM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on March 20, 2012, 01:28:30 AM

If I went small auto I think I would go with the tomcat in 32 but the 32 dosen't reach the power of the 22 mag.

True, but for me personally, the NAA (even the larger .22 Mag version) just isn't very 'erganomic.' They're nice little guns but I'm afraid that I couldn't get one out of my pocket and into action nearly as quickly as a small auto. You can get larger grips for the NAAs but they make the gun less concealable.

I wouldn't dissuade anyone from buying a NAA revolver; they're really neat, well made and not too expensive. I'd encourage those planning on using one for any kind of self defense to practice with it a lot though. I could never get good enough with mine to where I felt I could depend on it for SD use.

Victor3 · « **Reply #17 on:** March 22, 2012, 01:57:41 AM »

I took some pics to show the difference in size between my NAA .22lr and Baby browning.

SHOOTALL, you mentioned you were considering the larger .22 Mag version. It would compare closely to one of the Beretta pocket pistols in terms of scale, so the comparison might (I hope) be useful.

It appears that the revolver might not be all that much more concealable than the auto...

One thing I like about an auto (even a tiny one) is that I can get a fairly secure grip and still sight along the top of the slide...

With the NAA, the hold is vague and I can't see any part of the gun to sight it. Also, the rear nub on the trigger contacts my middle finger...

A shot to compare between other smallish handguns...

Another thing... My Wife and 13 year old Son can hardly operate the NAA, even with their much smaller hands. They love plinking with the Browning though. Something to think about if you might need to hand the gun off to a family member for protection.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #18 on:** March 22, 2012, 03:41:06 AM »

Thanks , that was interesting .

Couger · « **Reply #19 on:** March 22, 2012, 07:01:35 AM »

Quote from: spruce

..... The requirements set forth in the original post pretty much dictates the NAA revolver.

ONLY in your opinion.

There ARE other realistic choices.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #20 on:** March 22, 2012, 07:23:59 AM »

I like the power of the 22 mag. I don't see a 32 auto , 25 auto or 22 auto in that power range. They do offer other things and checking them out is no problem. Also I don't care if the conversation widens .

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #21 on:** March 22, 2012, 07:44:18 AM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on March 15, 2012, 02:09:48 AM

OK lets look at it from a different view . The gun not the bullet. Here we talk the platform and how it will work. It might be good to include a very small handgun in ones BOB. I have been looking at the 22 Mag mini revolver with short bbl. It and a box of the new ammo ment for SD in the revolver would take up little room or add much weight.
Yes this is not a gun that I would carry everyday , its not one I would choose first . I have read that the new ammo has made this gun worth looking at when deep concelment is nessary. It would be the one I would keep hidden and used only in an emg. It would be easier to hide such a gun . It would only need ammo to run as no mags that could get misplaced or damaged are needed.

Any other ideas ?

I think there is a difference between the Mouse guns.
Some are pocket pistols , some are novelty guns.
Some are Useful some are not.
As a last ditch self protection is one thing.
Being Useful for other tasks is another.
For years I carried a small Walther TPH in 22LR out on my morning walks with the dog. It is small enough to have on me at all times and can tuck almost anywhere.
In 22 Lr it is not much of a man stopper but it was small in in hand for Coyote and other dogs. I did take a couple rabbits with it hunting.
The NAA micro revolvers are not really good for anything other than a novelty. You are too big to hold one easily and get it into a fight or to shoot it accuratly to take small game at 20 feet.
A small revolver like a J frame in 22LR or 22 Mag may be a better idea, Walther and Sig made PP framed guns in 22LR for a number of years even 32 ACP or some of the older 32 S&W long or short revolvers can be had for a song. I picked up a Model 30 I frame for $200+ a few months ago that would be a good small game getter, as well as personal protection. It could live in a front pocket of a jacket (much like most cops keep their J frames and have their hands on a gun when they have their hands in their pockets) the revolver can shoot multiple times through the coat.
I think the Mouse gun would be an easy way to carry a gun on you that can be used for multiple things.

Couger · « **Reply #22 on:** March 22, 2012, 09:38:30 AM »

Quote from: mcwoodduck

..... some are pocket pistols , some are novelty guns, some are useful, some are not.

true! That Walther TPH is a rare piece, and usually a dang good one and VERY reliable for a rimfire. There used to be only a couple real mouseguns, the best often thought to be the Seacamp. I actually saw one once, and wouldn't be suprised if they bring over $700-800! They were selling for over six bills six or seven years ago. Since then Kel-Tec first led the way driving down prices with their polymer guns in substantial calibers. And ammo continues to improve, and improve, and improve.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #23 on:** March 22, 2012, 10:16:58 AM »

Guess ya'll convinced me to go back to my old ways of thinking about mouse guns , friends don't let friends carry mouse guns ............

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #24 on:** March 22, 2012, 12:52:16 PM »

Quote from: Couger on March 22, 2012, 09:38:30 AM

Quote from: mcwoodduck
..... some are pocket pistols , some are novelty guns, some are useful, some are not.
true! That Walther TPH is a rare piece, and usually a dang good one and VERY reliable for a rimfire. There used to be only a couple real mouseguns, the best often thought to be the Seacamp. I actually saw one once, and wouldn't be suprised if they bring over $700-800! They were selling for over six bills six or seven years ago. Since then Kel-Tec first led the way driving down prices with their polymer guns in substantial calibers. And ammo continues to improve, and improve, and improve.

I have played with a Seacamp. Well built little gun.
Buit there are no sights on it. If you can punch them you can hit them with the sea camp.
Same with the other snag free pocket autos.
The TPH or at least mine has three dot sights, that can allow you to really aim for taking a longer shot or small game.

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #25 on:** March 22, 2012, 01:22:12 PM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on March 22, 2012, 10:16:58 AM

Guess ya'll convinced me to go back to my old ways of thinking about mouse guns , friends don't let friends carry mouse guns ............

Let's say that again. Depends on what you want the mouse gun for.
Personal Protection.
There is a time and a place for a mouse gun.
Adding my TPH to my BOB may not be a bad idea.
Small uses the ever present 22LR and can be in my hand and most people will not see it.
Whare as the SigP229 while a compact is not a mouse gun.
The Sig P245 that I want as a BOB is a little slimmer and would hide a little better.
The Plus or minus of the mouse guns are they are really LOUD. I think the TPH is louder than any of my other hand guns except fo the magnums. The plus side is the little bullet does more than just make a hole it scares people and animals. The down side is, it is really LOUD and taking a rabbit will let the other rabbits know you just shot as well as anyone in the area, even the powder free Colibi and super colibri bullets are loud. they make a Bang out fo the 2" barrel but make a snap out of the 6.5" Bisley. My TPH is the mouse that roared.
The 32S&W has more of a POP to it and can use 32 long or 32 Shorts. Adding to the picking up ammo effect. Most people will pass on the 32's but pick up the 38's.
But for the same size I can carry a Det Special or Cheif Special and have the Horse power of 38 Spl or 357 Mag.
The same goes for the PP sized guns, what was once the relm of the 380 now can be had in 9mm, 40 or even 45.
The Sig P245 is not much larger than the P 230 I have.
The Kahr pistols are now availiable in 40 S&W and are almost as small as most mouse guns.
On the other side of things.
I used to shoot a steel shoot in Southern CA. If I won then next month I would shoot a smaller gun. and would swap between a revolver or auto.
Shooting the 380 with Winchester ball 90 grain FMJ I was able to swing steel that the 130 grain FMJ 38 special loads would not swing out of my 2" Det Spl. (my 4 and 6" revolvers would swing the steel with the same loads) some times the mouse gun may be better. Not to mention the 380 held 8 and 14 more in two mags. The det spl held six and 12 more in two speed loaders.

spruce · « **Reply #26 on:** March 22, 2012, 01:43:47 PM »

Cougar - Yes, that is just my opinion. Didn't intend it to be taken as a statement of fact - just trying to save a little typing by not prefacing it with a disclaimer.

Now, when you say there are other realistic choices can I assume that is YOUR opinion?

Not trying to rile things up - just sometimes more difficult to convey all the nuances of meaning in the written word. Sorry I wasn't more clear.

Couger · « **Reply #27 on:** March 22, 2012, 04:07:32 PM »

Quote from: spruce

..... Yes, that is just my opinion. Didn't intend it to be taken as a statement of fact - just trying to save a little typing by not prefacing it with a disclaimer.

Now, when you say there are other realistic choices can I assume that is YOUR opinion?

Not trying to rile things up - just sometimes more difficult to convey all the nuances of meaning in the written word. Sorry I wasn't more clear.

Hey don't sweat it. Was I expressing my opinion? Certainly.

Couger · « **Reply #28 on:** March 22, 2012, 04:46:57 PM »

Quote from: mcwoodduck

I have played with a Seacamp. Well built little gun.
Buit there are no sights on it. If you can punch them you can hit them with the sea camp.
Same with the other snag free pocket autos.
The TPH or at least mine has three dot sights, that can allow you to really aim for taking a longer shot or small game.

Many handguns including mouseguns are belly shooters! Sights or the quality thereof, might not be as important perhaps as simply having something more than a that proverbial sharp stick!

In Costner's "Robin Hood", 'Robin' gave Marion a dirk (dagger), which in its day was a sidearm or mousegun for a lady or gentleman ...... (cutting edge for its time)

Personally I wouldn't prefer to carry a .380, and certainly not a .32 if a similar size package can be had in a 9mm! (first off, some rounds are weak in their "power" and ability, but since I already have a 9mm ..... its damm nice to eliminate one "odd ammo requirement" when its fairly easy to do so!)

But the point I'd really make, I read a story where the hero is trying to make his way through 'enemy territory' after a TEOTWAWKI event has happened, and at a roadblock/check point having a Kel-Tec .380 saved his life!

When he shot an attacker just beyond arms-length!!

Alledgedly most "American" shootings are supposed to occur at 21 feet and involve only 2-3-4 shots. But what if a weapon prevented someone from getting close enough to hit you? Or "grab" you?

I wasn't interested in a CF 'mousegun' until that story showed me the error of my ways. I had wanted a .22LR baby auto for survival and [belly shooting], but having a .356 caliber weapon suddenly seemed more important than I had thought. My pops carried a Walther PPKs the last years of his life. Thankfully he never needed it, but a Kahr CW9 is just as small, but lighter weight with a more capable round.

However the Kahr PM9 is smaller yet,
and the slim Kel-Tec 9mm is even smaller!

Sure the Kel-Tec .380 is smaller still and weighs less than 9 ounces,
but I'd rather have the heavier Kel-Tec in 9mm (to solve some logistics)
as well have the 9mm's better performance.

All of those Kel-Tec's or Kahr's (regardless of round) can be configured to give the shooter 6+1 or 7+1 shots if the correct mags are used.

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #29 on:** March 22, 2012, 05:52:11 PM »

Couger,
Like the 38 Special data I collected with shooting swinging steel, I wonder if the 380 out of a small gun is more effective than a 9mm out of the same length barrel.
My thinking is companies load a round for the common barrel lengths.
9mm has genneraly been 4.5 to 6 inches.
38 Special has been 4 to 6 inches and the same loads out of my 4" guns moved the steel with authority but the 2" did not swing.
380 has always been 2.75 to 4 inches.
I wonder if the powder is made to burn up in the common barrel lengths and much of the velocity would be lost in shorter than standard tubes.
With a 380 you may get faster speeds out of the 90 to 100 grain bullets that will proform when a 115 grain may not be fast enough to open or penetrate far and the heavier bullets like the 147gr may not do what they would out of your standard service style 9mm.
I often wanted to try a Micro 9mm on the steel to see the effect compared to the 380.
When we would shoot 45-70 ammo out of a handgun we saw the loads that were kickers out of the rifle tame out of the hand gun and the black powder loads out of the rifle were tame and were wild in the BFR. The 300 grain JHP is made ot shoot in a 20" barrel and you get the full 1800Fps out of it and little flash, the 7.5" BFR barrle made a huge flash. The black powder went off instantly and went faster than the 300 grainers, that are a lot faster out of the rifle.