Author Topic: BLAST Effect or Bore PRESSURIZATION What propels Mortar Projectiles?  (Read 12455 times)

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Offline shred

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Re: BLAST Effect or Bore PRESSURIZATION What propels Mortar Projectiles?
« Reply #90 on: April 18, 2012, 11:25:19 AM »
I can't remember if mass is actually a component..

Yes, mass is a component.  A low mass projectile will get higher velocity from a charge but have a lower sectional density (hence, lower ballistic coefficient) so will lose velocity faster, although at cannon shot velocities, this is probably less important.

Yeah, but is mass included in BC or is it also included separately?  That's the part I can't remember.  Doesn't matter anyway as long as it's constant though.

Offline GGaskill

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Re: BLAST Effect or Bore PRESSURIZATION What propels Mortar Projectiles?
« Reply #91 on: April 18, 2012, 11:56:29 AM »
Mass is part of sectional density which is part of ballistic coefficient.
GG
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Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: BLAST Effect or Bore PRESSURIZATION What propels Mortar Projectiles?
« Reply #92 on: April 18, 2012, 01:12:59 PM »
     Just so you all know, Mike and I have done hundreds of experiments over the years for various aerospace, aircraft and computer manufacturers and what we dislike intensely are sloppy instructions, methods or flawed empirical results due to sloppy observations which cause inaccurate conclusions.  Even for a fun experiment such as this one, by habit alone, our methods are completely professional.

     All powder charges will be  300 grains +/- .1 gr.  and projectiles will be the same weight within 1/10 oz.  The bed will be the same for every shot of every length mortar and will be rock-solid stable.  Powder ignition will be via non-contact means, fuse.  Distances will be carefully measured from the leading edge of the mortar bed to the center of mass of each projectile shot.  Only by doing these things will we be satisfied that effort we put forth produced accurate conclusions.  Thanks for all the intelligent comments; we feel that we have learned a few things already!
 
 Mike and Tracy
 
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline dominick

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Re: BLAST Effect or Bore PRESSURIZATION What propels Mortar Projectiles?
« Reply #93 on: April 18, 2012, 02:05:26 PM »
     ... what we dislike intensely are sloppy instructions, methods or flawed empirical results due to sloppy observations which cause inaccurate conclusions...        Mike and Tracy
 

Sounds like input for computer models for global warming.  :D

Offline Victor3

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Re: BLAST Effect or Bore PRESSURIZATION What propels Mortar Projectiles?
« Reply #94 on: April 21, 2012, 10:18:15 PM »
I was thinking that most all the faffing around with Apogee and protractors and straws and string could be bypassed by getting a reasonably accurate velocity reading coming out of the muzzle, which is what you really want anyway.  Put a nice big background with measured markings (foot squares) on it behind the mortar, line up the EX-F1 at 1200 fps and fire away.   If you can get the projectile (or reasonably defined blur thereof) in a few frames, math does the rest and it would be like all those 1960's B&W test films.

 If y'all could provision me with a high enuf ladder and a can of spray paint, I might could fix up my cannon test range for this experiment...
 

 
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline dittybopper

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Re: BLAST Effect or Bore PRESSURIZATION What propels Mortar Projectiles?
« Reply #95 on: July 09, 2012, 08:00:31 AM »
Thanks KABAR2, that is a good name for it.  From now on we will call you the "Jester". 
 
 A real Steam Calliope onboard the passenger ferry, Mini-Ha-Ha.
 

 
 
 Can you remember the first "Where are These Cannons located?" Contest?  The following is a picture of the vessel where the Calliope is installed.  This vessel was featured as a clue as to the cannon's Empire State location in our very first,  Where are these cannon located? Contest.
 
 The following question greeted contestants on August 9, 2007 along with the photo we took while visiting the fort the spring of 2007.
 
 Can you name the Fort in the "Empire State" where this Long 12 Pdr. is located?  Name the lake too.
 
 
 


I can, as it's about 10 miles or so north of my house.  Fort William Henry, on Lake George.


There is a very very small but non-zero chance that the silver car on the left of the bottom image is mine.


Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: BLAST Effect or Bore PRESSURIZATION What propels Mortar Projectiles?
« Reply #96 on: July 11, 2012, 01:14:36 AM »
     Right you are Dittybopper!  Do you live near the old post road between Fort Wm Henry and Fort Edward where the British soldiers and civilians of the doomed fort were massacred by the Indians not under effective French control?  Montcalm ordered them to be hunted down, but it was too late to erase this stain on his otherwise unblemished record.
 
      I lived near Albany, NY for about 20 years, so I know a bit about the area's history.

Tracy
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline dittybopper

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Re: BLAST Effect or Bore PRESSURIZATION What propels Mortar Projectiles?
« Reply #97 on: July 12, 2012, 05:36:29 AM »
Not too far from it, and in fact I live pretty close to the cave made famous in "Last of the Mohicans".




Offline dittybopper

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Re: BLAST Effect or Bore PRESSURIZATION What propels Mortar Projectiles?
« Reply #98 on: July 12, 2012, 05:38:57 AM »
I should also point out that every time we pass Bloody Pond, I mutter "Bloody Pond", just to annoy my wife.


Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: BLAST Effect or Bore PRESSURIZATION What propels Mortar Projectiles?
« Reply #99 on: July 12, 2012, 03:00:10 PM »
dittybopper !?

A term we used in the ASA for those taking code (05C's).

Interesting handle.

Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline GGaskill

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Re: BLAST Effect or Bore PRESSURIZATION What propels Mortar Projectiles?
« Reply #100 on: July 12, 2012, 03:26:26 PM »
Code meaning manual Morse code radio messages.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
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Offline keith44

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Re: BLAST Effect or Bore PRESSURIZATION What propels Mortar Projectiles?
« Reply #101 on: July 12, 2012, 07:33:16 PM »


      If someone can assure us that a projectile's muzzle velocity is directly related to the mortar's power, we will try it.     






Huh??? What???  What is a mortars power?


Presumably the "power" that we care about in the mortar case (discarding noise and flame) is directly related to the projectile thrown-- how heavy a mass was thrown and how far it was thrown;  Distance-thrown is a function of projectiles' initial angle, mass [urk, I can't remember if mass is actually a component.. but it doesn't matter], Ballistic Coefficient and velocity.  By keeping the projectile mass, angle and BC constant for the shots, the differences in distance thrown (in an ideal world, ignoring wind and passing avians and such) would only vary due to velocity.  So, now we're left with the projectile's kinetic energy (or momentum or whatever other mass-times-velocity measure you like). 

By holding the powder charge constant and varying the barrel length, the changes in velocity for each barrel length are the only values that need to be determined in this experiment.

A separate experiment of varying powder charges on a per-barrel basis might also be instructive to determine where the knee in the powder-to-power curve is.





so are you wanting the kinetic energy of the projectile,


BC changes with velocity, as proven by experiments with air rifles using the same pellet fired from different air rifles of varying power levels across two chronographs under controlled conditions (indoors) one chronograph at or near the muzzle, the second chronograph near the target 25 yards away (IIRC) and as power levels and therefore velocity increased, so did the BC of a given pellet.


Read "airgun odyssey" by Steve Hanson ([size=78%]http://www.amazon.com/Airgun-Odyssey-Steve-Hanson/dp/1931220158/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1342162006&sr=1-1&keywords=airgun+odyssey[/size])  for the experiments particulars


likely this will affect calculations
keep em talkin' while I reload
Life member NRA

Offline dittybopper

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Re: BLAST Effect or Bore PRESSURIZATION What propels Mortar Projectiles?
« Reply #102 on: July 12, 2012, 11:45:34 PM »
dittybopper !?

A term we used in the ASA for those taking code (05C's).

Interesting handle.


Oddly enough, I used to be a Morse intercept operator (05H) in the Army.  What a coincidence.  ;)


Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: BLAST Effect or Bore PRESSURIZATION What propels Mortar Projectiles?
« Reply #103 on: July 13, 2012, 11:26:46 AM »
dittybopper !?

A term we used in the ASA for those taking code (05C's).

Interesting handle.


Oddly enough, I used to be a Morse intercept operator (05H) in the Army.  What a coincidence.  ;)

Small world.  I started out as a 33G (ECM/DF Systems Repairman).
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline GGaskill

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Re: BLAST Effect or Bore PRESSURIZATION What propels Mortar Projectiles?
« Reply #104 on: July 13, 2012, 01:42:00 PM »
8th RRFS mean anything to you?
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: BLAST Effect or Bore PRESSURIZATION What propels Mortar Projectiles?
« Reply #105 on: July 13, 2012, 02:38:09 PM »
8th RRFS mean anything to you?

Only in a distant memory.  RR =? Radio Research
SE Asia I would assume, perhaps Korea?
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline GGaskill

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Re: BLAST Effect or Bore PRESSURIZATION What propels Mortar Projectiles?
« Reply #106 on: July 13, 2012, 03:28:10 PM »
If you weren't there, you probably wouldn't have heard of it much.  Phu Bai, 11 miles SE of Hue.

RRFS=Radio Research Field Station.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
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Offline dittybopper

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Re: BLAST Effect or Bore PRESSURIZATION What propels Mortar Projectiles?
« Reply #107 on: July 14, 2012, 02:02:26 AM »
This thread is starting to smell of old crow  :)

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: BLAST Effect or Bore PRESSURIZATION What propels Mortar Projectiles?
« Reply #108 on: July 14, 2012, 06:58:08 AM »
Just stories from friends that served in Camp Casey, in Asmera, in Synop, Shemia, Udorn (Tailand) and a few others.  ASA, yup, Old Crow.

WHere else could you hear the exchange:  "Hey you ditty-dud" and the response: "I ain't no ditty-dud, I can take 30 with a stick" AND IT MADE SENSE.

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Offline GGaskill

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Re: BLAST Effect or Bore PRESSURIZATION What propels Mortar Projectiles?
« Reply #109 on: July 14, 2012, 01:01:26 PM »
How about 2 watts?
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
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Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: BLAST Effect or Bore PRESSURIZATION What propels Mortar Projectiles?
« Reply #110 on: July 14, 2012, 02:20:00 PM »
The only thing of 2 watts that I saw was some classified (then) transmitter that the SF used to call in artillary on push-button selected target types via satelite to overhead aircraft.  I played with 500 watt radio jammers and several direction finders.
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Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: BLAST Effect or Bore PRESSURIZATION What propels Mortar Projectiles?
« Reply #111 on: July 14, 2012, 03:23:57 PM »
    Thanks George.  I just knew that a moderator would be best positioned to get this run-away thread back under control.  These mods have a sixth sense about these things you know.  And here I was sharpening up my double bit axe to facilitate a splitting off of the military jargon secondary track.  It sure was interesting though as I recall the days when I could say a sentence or two to either of my trailer-mates at Fort Polk, LA, with nothing more that Army acronyms, and they would understand perfectly what I was talking about.
 
      As almost everyone knows, the watt is a universally accepted unit of power expressed by this simple formula:  P=W/t .                   "W" represents work which is defined as a mass lifted a certain distance, (ft. lbs./ minute) or a transfer of energy as expressed by joules/second. A watt equals one joule per second.  "t" represents the time or duration of the lift or energy release.
 
      This all is related to Keith44's post of early yesterday:
 
 
 
 
       If someone can assure us that a projectile's muzzle velocity is directly related to the mortar's power, we will try it.     
 
 
 

 
 
 
 Huh??? What???  What is a mortars power?
 

 
 
Presumably the "power" that we care about in the mortar case (discarding noise and flame) is directly related to the projectile thrown-- how heavy a mass was thrown and how far it was thrown;  Distance-thrown is a function of projectiles' initial angle, mass [urk, I can't remember if mass is actually a component.. but it doesn't matter], Ballistic Coefficient and velocity.  By keeping the projectile mass, angle and BC constant for the shots, the differences in distance thrown (in an ideal world, ignoring wind and passing avians and such) would only vary due to velocity.  So, now we're left with the projectile's kinetic energy (or momentum or whatever other mass-times-velocity measure you like). 
 
 By holding the powder charge constant and varying the barrel length, the changes in velocity for each barrel length are the only values that need to be determined in this experiment.
 
 A separate experiment of varying powder charges on a per-barrel basis might also be instructive to determine where the knee in the powder-to-power curve is.
 
 
 
 

 
 so are you wanting the kinetic energy of the projectile,
 
 
 BC changes with velocity, as proven by experiments with air rifles using the same pellet fired from different air rifles of varying power levels across two chronographs under controlled conditions (indoors) one chronograph at or near the muzzle, the second chronograph near the target 25 yards away (IIRC) and as power levels and therefore velocity increased, so did the BC of a given pellet.
 
 
 Read "airgun odyssey" by Steve Hanson ([size=78%]http://www.amazon.com/Airgun-Odyssey-Steve-Hanson/dp/1931220158/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1342162006&sr=1-1&keywords=airgun+odyssey[/size])  for the experiments particulars
 
 
 likely this will affect calculations
 

 
      With the mortar's Power found according to the formula P=W/t, it is our belief that in lieu of Kinetic Energy you probably would wise to work on determining how many ft. lbs. of work was done divided by how fast it was done in a measured portion of a minute.
 
      As far as the ultimate expression of mortar efficiency, we still think there is sufficient precedence to use the range that a projectile of like mass was projected by the same powder type and charge as the other length mortars used.
 
 Tracy
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline GGaskill

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Re: BLAST Effect or Bore PRESSURIZATION What propels Mortar Projectiles?
« Reply #112 on: July 14, 2012, 04:58:00 PM »
These mods have a sixth sense about these things you know.

 ;D  Two watts was the power of the NVA morse transmitters, as I recall.  It's just us old guys reliving parts of our youth.

But regarding measuring work versus velocity, I think that was my original proposition.  But I now think that high speed video would get a more accurate collection of data as you won't have the effects of drag and gravity dominating the measurement that you would when measuring the final result (distance.)  You could video each test shot from exactly the same angle and count frames from first smoke to the passing of some point away from the muzzle, and determine velocity from the time and distance.
GG
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Offline seacoastartillery

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OPERATION CALLIOPE Starts on Independence Day, July 4, 2013
« Reply #113 on: June 09, 2013, 09:02:19 PM »
OPERATION  CALLIOPE    STARTS   JULY 4, 2013 
Blast Effect  VS  Bore Pressurization

    Yes, that’s right, we have gone back to the Blast Effect VS Bore Pressurization Experiment and the deadline for the first Salvo is Independence Day, July 4, 2013.  We had no idea how much time it was going to take to make an authentic target for the full size Petard, in order to give it an authentic Castle or fortress door to break open.  Also it would be completely irresponsible to fire two and a half pounds of cannon grade powder across our grassland prairie range when everything is so close to bone dry. 
   
                   
        Besides, necessity is the mother of invention and I just figured out how to machine a universal mortar tube mount, hereafter called a Receiver Plate, so that the various length tubes can be mounted and dismounted quickly from ONE heavy duty, Universal Mortar Bed.  This will save lots of construction time.  The Receiver Plate will be secured to the Universal Mortar Bed by four 3/8” lag screws and marine epoxy paste in a 45 degree attitude.  In a central position, the Receiver Plate will have a robust ¾ -10 NC threaded stud protruding about ½” to mate with a ¾ - 10 nut welded into a central counterbore in each mortar’s welded baseplate. 

            In just 3 short weeks we should know if there is any truth to our assertion that 70% of an old time, muzzle-loaded, black powder, mortar projectile’s projected distance is due to Blast Effect rather than Bore Pressurization.

  It might take 3 sessions at the range to get all the results, but we will know the big answer on
July 4th !


          The name for these range tests, OPERATION CALLIOPE came from KABAR2.  Below is the photo which inspired him.  Thanks Allen!
Tracy


Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline Double D

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Re: BLAST Effect or Bore PRESSURIZATION What propels Mortar Projectiles?
« Reply #114 on: June 10, 2013, 05:23:06 AM »
We have had a good deal of discussion on this and a lot of other things in this thread, but its been a while.

To recap and refresh our memories could you lay what you are doing and hope to prove/achieve using say the scientific method? Then as you progress update the process?

That should make it pretty clear.

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: BLAST Effect or Bore PRESSURIZATION What propels Mortar Projectiles?
« Reply #115 on: June 10, 2013, 10:35:01 AM »
      Good idea, Douglas, and while there are several interesting concepts discussed in this thread’s past postings, only the truly interested will want to read through the four pages as I did last night.  To give credit to the clearly descriptive language defining  the term most open-to-interpretation,  Blast Effect, we must credit Double D. with “sudden, uncontrolled release of high pressure gasses from the opening of the chamber” or words to that effect.  Credit must go to Rocklock 1 for creating the best mental image of the concept of Blast Effect, that of “shooting a 100 pound anvil off of another inverted 100 pound anvil with one pound of black powder” or words to that effect.

     We follow the basic 5 step Scientific Method out of habit, as it usually yields results that either confirm or deny accuracy of the stated hypothesis.  The steps are:


                                          1.  Observation
                                          2.  Hypothesis
                                          3.  Prediction
                                          4.  Experimentation
                                          5.  Conclusion

 
     In the first step called Observation  you should describe a phenomenon which you have personally observed, such as this one:  I have observed that very short mortars seem to throw their projectiles approximately three quarters as far as howitzers of the same bore size, projectile weight and powder load.

     Our Hypothesis is a simple statement that defines what we think the outcome of our experiments will be.  We believe that the phenomenon termed blast effect can provide the lift needed by a short tubed mortar to achieve more than one half the range of similarly loaded howitzers.

     The Prediction should narrow your expectation of what the experiments will show.  We for instance believe that the addition of a two caliber long tube will increase the range of the standard projectile only by 30% over the Zero Caliber mortar.

     In the Experimentation  step of the scientific method we will attempt to perform all of the range experiments in sets of 10 shots with each different length of tube, while keeping all other conditions such as projectile size, shape and weight and powder charge and method of ignition the same for each shot in each set.  The only variable will be the tube length.  We will have five sets of ten shots each for each of the tube lengths which are:  zero cal., ½ cal., 1 cal., 1 1/2 cal., and 2 cal. For a total of 50 shots.

     A Conclusion supported by your observation of experiments and notation of results can be reached via use of simple math which can determine the percentage of change in the projectiles average range for each length of tube and logical comparisons can be made agreeing with  or not agreeing with the stated Hypothesis.  You cannot Prove or Disprove the Hypothesis with one set of experiments as errors can be contained in them which can be negated by having larger numbers of experiments or independent verification of the same experiments necessary for proof or disproof.
 
     Before the professional fireworks provided by our tax dollars grace the skies over Broomfield on Independence Day, we should have a  “Quick-Look” at the results of the experiments accomplished on that day.  We will shoot the shortest, Zero Caliber Mortar and the longest, Two Caliber Mortar five times each which should give all of us a good indication of whether the Hypothesis will be supported or not.

     You will all know if the dynamic cannon making duo is rocketing into the stratosphere or muttering the last words of Edward G., the infamous villain in  Little Caesar,  “Mother of mercy, is this the end of Rico?”

 
Tracy and Mike


This is the linstock we will use as it it a French Companie de l'Artillerie one from around 1750.  We like it for firing the big ones and very short mortars with lots of muzzle blast!!  The shaft is seven feet long and has an eleven inch long spear point, which gives you excellent reach in case some pesky Englishman, armed with one of those Brown Bess muskets, makes it through your artillery barrage.

Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling