Author Topic: Handi 44 Bodeen (Read 2769 times)

bikerbeans · « **on:** March 18, 2012, 04:53:19 AM »

Roger called my beloved 444M the weak little sister of the 45-70. This insult could not go unchallenged.

BB

Jason F · « **Reply #1 on:** March 18, 2012, 04:58:43 AM »

What kind of velocity do you expect to get out of it

bikerbeans · « **Reply #2 on:** March 18, 2012, 05:34:14 AM »

Jason,

Hoping for 300 to 400 FPS increase over the 444M with the same weight bullet. 300 grainer at >2500 fps and a 240 grain > 2700 fps would be great, my shoulder may limit this, we shall see. The COL of the bodeen is approx. 3/4" longer than a 444M so in theory about 40% more room for powder.

BB

quickdtoo · « **Reply #3 on:** March 18, 2012, 06:40:49 AM »

Nice work BB, QL prediction sent.

Tim

jimbobb55 · « **Reply #4 on:** March 18, 2012, 06:47:15 AM »

Never heard of a 44 Bodeen, where do you find the brass?

gendoc · « **Reply #5 on:** March 18, 2012, 06:57:03 AM »

tommy, i gotta ol'bluetick coonhound named bodeen......his papa is named jethro
and i am intreaged wif'um.

i mite needta partnerup one them wif my hounds

bigvarmnt · « **Reply #6 on:** March 18, 2012, 07:04:32 AM »

YOU GO Jethro er ugh BB

I thought that insult was directed more towards my 444 $:-\$

Maybe we should take it up there and show Rog how it can reach them 700yd Wolves

Glad you got my back

bikerbeans · « **Reply #7 on:** March 18, 2012, 07:28:37 AM »

I am thinkin' this may be the only 44 Bodeen. I had the reamer made for the project and the brass is FF. It had other working names;
444 SuperMarlin
440 Mongo
10.9 x 74R
Went with the Bodeen handle cause it wasn't chambered with a store bought reamer.

We all know Clampetts don't like store bought.

BB

Quote from: jimbobb55 on March 18, 2012, 06:47:15 AM

Never heard of a 44 Bodeen, where do you find the brass?

gendoc · « **Reply #8 on:** March 18, 2012, 07:42:45 AM »

Quote from: bikerbeans on March 18, 2012, 07:28:37 AM

Went with the Bodeen handle cause it wasn't chambered with a store bought reamer. We all know Clampetts don't like store bought.

BB

now i know i jus gotta have one, and i'll perfect it to throw shot too !!!!,
a bodeen scatter for them coons.........i'm intreaged again....

dpe.ahoy · « **Reply #9 on:** March 18, 2012, 10:49:24 AM »

What is the parent case of this cartridge?

If you want some interesting information on the 444, wander on over to Marlin Owners web site and go down to the 444 Marlin section. Take a look at the thread titled "Two more 444 articals.", I bumped it to the top. Flat Top has don mods on his Safari Grade Marlin to take a longer length and has done testing as he developed this rifle. 4200 ft lb of energy with a 405 gr cast bullet is pretty impressive. Check it out fellas, check it out. DP

bikerbeans · « **Reply #10 on:** March 18, 2012, 12:14:07 PM »

Quote from: dpe.ahoy on March 18, 2012, 10:49:24 AM

What is the parent case of this cartridge? If you want some interesting information on the 444, wander on over to Marlin Owners web site and go down to the 444 Marlin section. Take a look at the thread titled "Two more 444 articals.", I bumped it to the top. Flat Top has don mods on his Safari Grade Marlin to take a longer length and has done pressure testing as he developed this rifle. 4200 ft lb of energy with a 405 gr cast bullet is pretty impressive. Check it out fellas, check it out. DP

DP,

I have both of FT's articles on his 444M improvements saved to my laptop with icons on my homepage for quick reference. I think he was able to get a max. COL of 2.76" with a 405 grain lead GC bullet. Velocity on his Safari version was 2,150 fps, IIRC. Not shabby for a lever gun. FWIW, I don't remember him doing any pressure testing but he did a lot of measurements of the brass and rifle to make sure things weren't moving on him. If he has real pressure data I would be interested because I would be real surprised if it meets the SAAMI spec for a 444M cartridge.

The parent case is 9.3x74R, expanded and fireformed. The chamber has essentially the same beginning and ending diameters as a 444M but it is 0.7+" longer. For reference, bullets that are touch the rifling in my 444M Handi @ 2.55" or so touch the rifling in the Bodeen at about 3.25". The brass after expanding, FFing, trimming and chamfering is about 2.87" give or take. I cut the chamber longer than necessary for this brass which started @ 2.91" so I have the option of chambering modified 3" 410 hulls.

BB

dpe.ahoy · « **Reply #11 on:** March 18, 2012, 01:17:00 PM »

You are correct in that, I went back and re-read his articals, It was not pressure tested. There I go trying to go on memory when CRS is my friend.

I took out the Pressure part of tested. He used measurements and wear indicators and has put around 1000 full house loads thru the Safari grade rifle. In the Handi, the pressures should be less than the typical bottle-neck cartridge pressure. With your larger case, you should gain some nice increases in velocity and energy while maintaining low pressures. DP

bikerbeans · « **Reply #12 on:** March 18, 2012, 03:15:32 PM »

dp,

it is the same with me and CRS. I told Quick this morning that the case capacity of the bodeen was about 90 grams, not grains, of water.

I think FT did a lot with his lever gun 444M load development to make sure it was safe in his gun. After reading his reports on the Safari 444 I almost decided to just throat a 444M and see what I could do but why throat when you can ream?

don't tell anybody but I ready want a 444M lever gun, on problem is it seems everyone else does too and their ain't a cheap one to be had.

BB

dpe.ahoy · « **Reply #13 on:** March 18, 2012, 04:19:25 PM »

They do seem to be going up in price. Cheap and any gun around here just don't go together. Gun Show this weekend in Billings just had me shaking my head. Only good deal there was the HSM booth, bought 2 boxes of 41 mag. 210 JHP, $29.00 per box of 50. I'm not ready to sell any of my 444 levers yet, afraid I'm kinda proud of them too.

DP

bikerbeans · « **Reply #14 on:** March 22, 2012, 10:42:41 AM »

The Bodeen is showing promise and recoil.

Started with camo PW low comb set w/o a recoil pad. I now have a Cin. Lam M/C set with a stock channel full of lead shot. Going to launch a bunch of my .430" GC lead (read cheap bullets) that I have before trying to workup to the load the Tim sent me from QL. The QL load is with a 225 barnes XPB & I4198. Bullet #2, the low one, is I think operator error but time will tell on that one.

BB

quickdtoo · « **Reply #15 on:** March 23, 2012, 04:55:58 AM »

That's a wonderful start!!

Tim

jkpq45 · « **Reply #16 on:** August 24, 2012, 05:54:59 AM »

Fascinating project! I'm considering roughly the same idea.

You mentioned you can fire modified .410s--what needs to happen to them? Will virgin cartridges just fireform to the chamber? Any problem with the 3" hulls in the ~2.90" chamber? Or do you have to trim them?

I imagine you'd need to keep the pressures to .410 levels in the plastic cases (ANSI lists 13,500 PSIg for 3" and 12,500 PSIg for 2.5").

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #17 on:** August 24, 2012, 08:43:10 AM »

Quote from: jkpq45 on August 24, 2012, 05:54:59 AM

Fascinating project! I'm considering roughly the same idea.

You mentioned you can fire modified .410s--what needs to happen to them? Will virgin cartridges just fireform to the chamber? Any problem with the 3" hulls in the ~2.90" chamber? Or do you have to trim them?

I imagine you'd need to keep the pressures to .410 levels in the plastic cases (ANSI lists 13,500 PSIg for 3" and 12,500 PSIg for 2.5").

I would imagine all brass hulls would be used. Other wise I am sure the 444M would out perform it.

Back to the 444M being the weak little sister, I do not think so. If you load up the case to it's full potential, it will run at a higher pressure than you can run the 45-70 at, due to a stronger case. I know that some have loaded the 45-70 to 50K psi. The 444M is based on the 30-06 which runs at 60K psi. So if you load up the 444M to it's maximum pressure, not the anaemic industry standard of 44K CUP, you will out preform the 45-70 with similar weight bullets. If both are loaded up to it's maximum pressure of 50K psi and 60psi respectfully. Now some will argue that it is unsafe to load the 444M above industry standard. If you use that argument with the 444M, then you should apply the same standard to the 45-70 and hold it's pressure to a standard of 28K CUP.

Now there are a couple of problems with loading the 444M up to 60K psi. You have to have an action strong enough to handle 60K psi. Also, the bullet selection for the 45-70 is much better than for the 444M. I am not sure if there is a bullet that would give satisfactory performance at 60K psi. But if there is, it would truly be a real power house, not a weak little sister.

One other point - Hornady makes LEVERevolution ammo. The 444M shoots a 265 grain bullet at 2325 fps. The 45-70 shoots a 250 grain bullet at 2025 fps. Both out of a 24" test barrel. I think they load both up to safe levels for a lever action. Which has more punch?

Of course the 444M does not have the history that the 45-70 has. I am not sure how much this comes into play in the woods. I am sure it is not as much as at the range. I am not putting down the 45-70, it has been around for a long, long time and is still very popular for good reason. I just do not think that the 444M is weaker, I think if it is in a strong action with well constructed bullets, it can be the equal of the 45-70, if not better.

Good Shooting and Good Luck

quickdtoo · « **Reply #18 on:** August 24, 2012, 09:10:23 AM »

Quote from: LaOtto222 on August 24, 2012, 08:43:10 AM

Back to the 444M being the weak little sister, I do not think so. If you load up the case to it's full potential, it will run at a higher pressure than you can run the 45-70 at, due to a stronger case.

That's not true, 375 Win Big Bore shooters routinely use 30-30 and 38-55 brass loaded to 52kcup(60kpsi) with no problems to take advantage of the extra case capacity, and Barnes data for the 45-70 is pushed to 55kpsi. The case is just a vessel to contain the powder and bullet, the chamber contains the pressure, the larger case head of the 45-70 is the limiting factor as it applies to the Handi platform, I've loaded the 444 to 60kpsi and didn't achieve much velocity increase due to the limited case capacity at 68gr H2o, pressure signs occured long before any appreciable velocity was attained, the 45-70's larger case capacity of 79gr H2o has a definate advantage if a fella wants to hot rod both.

As for Hornady ammo, the LE 45-70 325gr ammo is only loaded to the SAAMI MAP of 28kpsi at 2050fps, handload the 325gr FTX bullet to the same pressure as the 444 265gr LE load and the higher BC of the 45-70(.230) exceeds the 444(.225) ballistics, the 444 can't be loaded much hotter due to the reduced case capacity.

Tim

http://www.barnesbullets.com/images/45-70RugerNo1Web.pdf

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #19 on:** August 24, 2012, 12:20:03 PM »

I have to admit that the Barnes data is a real "load". So high, that I can not see any safe 444M matching it. But the 450 Marlin does not match it either. 450 Marlin 300 TSX FN = 2268 fps. 45-70 Gov. 300 TSX FN = 2488 fps!!! That is 220 fps faster than the 450 Marlin!!! WOW!!! Does that make the 450 Marlin a weak little sister?

I wonder how hot you could load a 444M if it was in a "Strong Action"?

Good Luck and Good Shooting

bikerbeans · « **Reply #20 on:** August 24, 2012, 12:33:27 PM »

Quote from: jkpq45 on August 24, 2012, 05:54:59 AM

Fascinating project! I'm considering roughly the same idea.

You mentioned you can fire modified .410s--what needs to happen to them? Will virgin cartridges just fireform to the chamber? Any problem with the 3" hulls in the ~2.90" chamber? Or do you have to trim them?

I imagine you'd need to keep the pressures to .410 levels in the plastic cases (ANSI lists 13,500 PSIg for 3" and 12,500 PSIg for 2.5").

Hi,

I have not loaded and fired any 410s in the 44 Bodeen chamber. I need to make a new die/reamer to neck turn the 3" hulls and have been distracted by a multitude of other projects. I think I will need to trim the 3" hulls to about 2.85 or so to get rid of the crimped section. I load 410 slugs with the bullet engraved in the rifling so the trim length isn't that important as long as the bullet is seated straight in the hull.

As far as pressure goes my 410s shells with a 2.55" OAL and a 310 grain LWNGC over a compressed load of I3031 are pretty much equivalent to start loads for a 444M. This load is about as hot as the Win AA/HS hulls I am using will handle and the 209 is getting near it's pressure limit as well. I have chronied the 2.55" OAL 410 well over 1,800 FPS. An all brass 410 hull would be nice but it isn't legal for deer hunting in my state.

BB

bikerbeans · « **Reply #21 on:** August 24, 2012, 12:42:51 PM »

Quote from: LaOtto222 on August 24, 2012, 12:20:03 PM

I have to admit that the Barnes data is a real "load". So high, that I can not see any safe 444M matching it. But the 450 Marlin does not match it either. 450 Marlin 300 TSX FN = 2268 fps. 45-70 Gov. 300 TSX FN = 2488 fps!!! That is 220 fps faster than the 450 Marlin!!! WOW!!! Does that make the 450 Marlin a weak little sister?

I wonder how hot you could load a 444M if it was in a "Strong Action"?

Good Luck and Good Shooting

IMO the load in the attached article constituetes a "hot" 444M load.

FWIW,

with a 310 grain slug, 3.25" OAL and I3031 in the 44 Bodeen I gave up at less than 95% load density. The brass extracted easily and the primer (A LARGE PISTOL PRIMER) was only starting to show signed of flattening. The recoil on the other hand is quite vicious with this 10# gun. This gun can probably handle a 50K psi load, but I have not plans to test it.

BB

quickdtoo · « **Reply #22 on:** August 24, 2012, 12:51:05 PM »

Quote from: LaOtto222 on August 24, 2012, 12:20:03 PM

I have to admit that the Barnes data is a real "load". So high, that I can not see any safe 444M matching it. But the 450 Marlin does not match it either. 450 Marlin 300 TSX FN = 2268 fps. 45-70 Gov. 300 TSX FN = 2488 fps!!! That is 220 fps faster than the 450 Marlin!!! WOW!!! Does that make the 450 Marlin a weak little sister?

I wonder how hot you could load a 444M if it was in a "Strong Action"?

Good Luck and Good Shooting

Make the wrong powder choice for either and even the Ruger will be toast, the link tells a Taffin story of AA7 being used instead of RL7, the 444 Levergun barrel blown off the receiver and the Ruger 45-70 ruined, the Ruger had alllegedly fired several rounds already before it locked up, not to mention the Contender that was also blown up!

Tim

http://www.oldmissourihillbilly.com/february_05.htm

gcrank1 · « **Reply #23 on:** August 25, 2012, 02:27:35 PM »

Im thinking one of the heavy 12ga. shotgun barrels on an SB-2 frame as the platform with insert swap barrels would be the thing for trials like this.
But, with apologies to R. Kipling,"Youre a better man than I BikerBeans!"

.

jkpq45 · « **Reply #24 on:** September 12, 2012, 09:25:01 AM »

Awesome project. Any update?

jkpq45 · « **Reply #25 on:** September 12, 2012, 09:27:40 AM »

Also, any chance you'd post a dimensioned drawing of the cartridge/chamber?

bikerbeans · « **Reply #26 on:** September 12, 2012, 01:42:43 PM »

Hi,

No CAD or drafting skills on my part so a drawing doesn't exist. THe 44 Bodeen is essentially a 444Marlin round that has been streched from 2.225" to approx. 2.9". The case mouth and head ODs are the same for both the 444M & 44 Bodeen. THe bodeen does not have a shoulder, just a shallower angle on the body taper.

I shot a hog with the Bodeen this summer using a 310 grn LWNGC and it went through and kept on a going. My friend is taking the Bodeen to Wyoming with him on his elk trip this October. It will be one of several rifles he is taking but I think harvesting an elk with the Bodeen would be a nice addition to anyone's hunting resume.

BB

quickdtoo · « **Reply #27 on:** September 12, 2012, 01:48:56 PM »

Just harvesting an elk is a nice addition to anyone's resume, doing it with a custom wildcat Handi is an even bigger plus!

Tim

Ganjiro · « **Reply #28 on:** September 13, 2012, 11:52:11 AM »

What's not to like about Bodeen?

Keep us posted on your progress.