new or maybe old idea cannon

[ger42]

 Good morning   Not sure where this belongs and even if y’all want it on the board but it is going to keep coming up… so I will ask
I am a military history display person for resent wars and a reenactor for war between the states and rev war.  I have filled in where needed from school days display to sharpshooter to filling in on cannons.
But my question is with the cost of powder going up, the cost of other items and the hazmat problems is there any reason propane couldn’t used in war between the states to simulate fire from the cannons, it’s both cheaper and safer than Blackpowder.  We use it in later war guns such as machine guns, rifles and larger guns.  We get the same type of sound but usually less smoke but that can be changed with a few different additives to the charge.  There is much less chamber pressure.  We are able to use mild steel barrels and sometimes even pvc. 
At an event the other day we were talking of building standard carriage but using a steel sleeved wooden barrel for the cannon.  (we have build several WWII guns this way).  And then fire it with gas.  This would cut the cost of gun by a lot.  Carriage would be the same.  But cost of firing a shot would be cut about 95%. 
 We have done this for demos and events like 4^th of July already but the gun didn’t look correct.  But easy to turn a gun from wood that look correct for era. and people have been firing those big bang cannons for years.

 Some of the owners of the cannons said they have had to decline taking their cannons to as many events because of the cost.  Maybe this would help
 Would like to hear opinions and reasons pro and con and thanks

[KABAR2]

 
I can understand from a re-enacting point of view where original DD classed modern artillery is expensive a pain as far as paperwork to take out of state to an event or a de-milled modern artillery piece converted over to fire gas will add to the event.... yes simulating automatic gas fire mgs also add to the event but you will find most historical re-enactors of pre 1898 era event prefer to keep things as authentic as possible.... who needs to explain well I left my real cannon home and this one fires propane but looks really good to the public? why go to the added expense of building such a contraption where for aesthetics you have to hide tanks and hoses etc. from public view? from what I see most WWII re-enactments are done for the participants not the general public.... while Revolutionary War and Civil War events are done for the public...... because of constraints WWII re-enactors will look the other way and allow for those little tanks of gas..... I doubt you will find any such attitude among the Rev. War or Civil War crowd..... also there is the NSSA the shoot live guns are not mere noise makers so they are willing to pay the expense of travel and powder...... there is among us one skilled craftsman who builds wooden cannon and concrete cannon we all like his work Zulu does a fine job he has built some guns for a pirate group and I think they may use some sort of pyrotechnics with his tubes but that is as far as the interest in such things go here...... we actually have had fun picking out little details in movie stills like one from "The Alamo" where you can spot the gas cylinders under some canvas by the cannons wheel...... Holly Wood is one thing.... We like burning powder and the rich acrid smell of sulfur smoke....
 

[GGaskill]

I guess we can't really answer the question about suitability; you will have to decide whether a propane gun satisfies the same as a BP gun.  Certainly voluminous smoke is part of the experience.  Regarding construction, mild steel is more than adequate for making guns of the Revolution and CW eras; it is much stronger than original materials. 

If you are re-enacting the complete drill, you would have to somehow conceal the propane accessories.  That would not be too much of a challenge if you are making your guns from scratch. 

Regarding cost, the cost of everything is going up (in proportion to the value of the money going down) so you need to compare the cost of powder to the total cost of the event, not just the difference in price from today versus two years ago.  Also, maybe the event sponsors can come up with a powder subsidy if they want real smoke.

[Cat Whisperer]

A friend once responded to the requests of making the cannon louder (in the annual parade).  He got  one of the propane cannon simulators and dressed it up. 

He had a GREAT time!  Genuinely LOUD!  The crowds LOVED it!

But when, after the parade, seeing his wife's horrified look - he looked in the mirror - blood coming from his eyes, ears and nose!  Too much of a good thing!

Propane CAN be too much.

[Zulu]

Welcome to the forum!
I am especially interested in seeing some pictures of the wooden guns that are so easy to make.
It might not be all that hard but they are extremely time consuming.
Zulu
 
Here are a few of mine.
 

[ger42]

Hi  I agree with all that has been said....expect that I do the reenactment to learn about and get the feel of history, I wanted to know a little of what my relatives felt when they were in those battles.  I am retired military and the new wars are different.  the last event we were in the real earth works and it felt good and strange.... before and after the event it was good to have the spectators but once the battle started most of us don't know they are there.

 I too like the smell and smoke....  just thinking there might be another way... I have a few friends that fire real WWII gun and look down on the other that fire blanks or propane? 

I don't mean to imply that making any gun is easy but its a lot easier to turn something on my lathe than cast it or turn it on my metal lathe.....   

the last two events I worked a gun and we were close to 100 yards form the people viewing the event.... about all they could see of us was the smoke and hear the report of the gun....   

to go to the big event a few times a year would be ok with the real thing but there is stuff we can do almost every other week so its getting expensive and you don't want to disappoint the spectators 

but thanks for letting me know how y'all feel   

[jamesfrom180]

I would like to point out that you have some good ideas and by no means do I ever want to tell you don't go play history.  Just this is the BP Forum>>Blackpowder Mortar and Cannon ect.  I think this audience will prefer the smoke That said you may be interested in a side project of mine.  I play with really big air guns.  Look up QEV valving and look into simulated explosions.  I have been playing for a wile now with these and think I can get a pretty good "splash" down range.  Fire a blank see an explosion no one ever really knows what did it.

[mcwoodduck]

I would like to point out that you have some good ideas and by no means do I ever want to tell you don't go play history.  Just this is the BP Forum>>Blackpowder Mortar and Cannon ect.  I think this audience will prefer the smoke That said you may be interested in a side project of mine.  I play with really big air guns.  Look up QEV valving and look into simulated explosions.  I have been playing for a wile now with these and think I can get a pretty good "splash" down range.  Fire a blank see an explosion no one ever really knows what did it.

I was about to say something very similar.
As a historian, wouldn't you want the crowd to see the smoke of the guns and see how hard it was to control troops and keep them from getting turned around, and to see what the troops faced in aiming and shooting through those clouds of smoke.
A friend of mine does some of the fake cannons for the movies along with real guns.  For the movies he buys gun powder from fireworks makers as it it cheap he said it looks like gravel.  But gives the smoke needed for the movies.
 

[Double D]

I have been watching this discussion and purposely not commenting.  But I guess I should.

First this board was created for the purpose of discussing the making and shooting of black powder cannons and mortars.  When  we started this forum, we purposely narrowed this field to Cannons and mortars meeting the antique description as we, the then moderators, interpreted the ATF regulations.

Very early on we identified  discussions of air cannons, hair spray cannons, spud guns and propane cannons as not part of this forum.

We did included toy cannons, firecracker cannons, and model cannons and we were compelled to include punt guns.  (I don't know why, they are just big shotguns, but we had to accept them. ) We were able to stave of a move have 37 mm grenade launchers included.

We were never a board for re-enactors, even though, whether blank firer or live firers, they are probably the biggest users of these type guns today.  Despite that we welcome historical discussions about the development and shooting of these guns.  These historical discussion give us some insight into how these old guns were constructed and how they were shot.   

Safety has been foremost in everything we discuss here.  When I moderated, I was tenacious in my stance on safety---no compromise.  Some say I was anal about it.  If my stance prevented one person from being hurt, then I will proudly accept that title.

That position of safety was one of the reasons we put propane of limits here.   We lacked the expertise to talk knowledgeably.

Ger42 asked a very specific question.

But my question is with the cost of powder going up, the cost of other items and the hazmat problems is there any reason propane couldn’t used in war between the states to simulate fire from the cannons, it’s both cheaper and safer than Blackpowder.

I find his question very interesting.  His question has to do with re -enacting and procedures with  in the re-enacting community.

His question is not about making blackpowder cannons and mortars and it is not about shooting blackpowder cannons and mortars. 

I contend that his question as interesting as it is, it is outside the intended scope this forum.

[RocklockI]

I hope you hang around  ,do you shoot BP cannons ? Try a side by side test with ANY audience ,see what they say .
 
Good luck with your efforts but I doubt you'll get too much info here as it is not bp.
If anyone is interested you can IM them off line and you won't get the dirty eyeball from anyone  . I won't name names but his initals are OPPS wait ..never mind 
Or ask about carriges of cassions ,or paint colors on and on.
Gary