Author Topic: Scout Rifle?  (Read 2577 times)

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Offline Bugflipper

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Scout Rifle?
« on: March 18, 2012, 07:18:42 PM »
What's the big craze with these things? In the 90's they were in all the gun rags, then they kind of faded from popularity, at least with the gun media. On GBO there has been a steady few converted from surplus rifles. There seems to be a big resurgence here lately on TV and in the mags. I think ruger and maybe savage make them now, maybe more. I just can't see what the need is. What will a bolt action do better than say an hk91 could do? Reliability is one, but not really widespread reliability issues with an hk91 or fal that has been properly setup. I'm just not getting where a quick pointing, slow rate of fire is an advantage tactically. Please shed some light on what I am failing to grasp here. BTW I have limited experience with a steyr scout 10 or 12 years ago running through a couple of courses. Really didn't get the concept back then either. Just that it was faster target acquisition than how a scoped hunting rifle is commonly set up. I've wanted to ask this several times, but didn't want to sidetrack someone's thread who was showing off their conversion or whatnot.
Thanks
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Offline mannyrock

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Re: Scout Rifle?
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2012, 11:12:23 AM »
 
    Cooper wrote an Article about 10 years ago, explaining how he took the Steyer Scout to an Army base, ran the combat course, and outscored a majority of the soldiers.
 
   Deadly accurate fire is highly desirable, even at a slow rate of fire.
 
   And, it was never touted as an all around offensive combat weapon.  Only as an all around rifle, with effective defensive capability.
 
   Personally, I hate a forward mounted scope.
 
   After 25 years of the concept, it is pretty clear that the scout rifle has never really caught fire.  The gunshops I know in Virginia can't give the Ruger Scout away.
 
Mannyrock

Offline Rangr44

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Re: Scout Rifle?
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2012, 02:54:18 AM »
[Please shed some light on what I am failing to grasp here]
 
A Scout person (and ergo the Scout's rifle) is NOT an ASSAULT person - and ergo an AK-type is contraindicated.
 
A real Scout, scouts best, via keeping eyes "on target" at all times - best exemplified by Coop's Scout Rifle concept, which besides simplifying sighting, frees up the action for attention like reloading, etc, w/o looking.
 
Wannabe's just buy anything "scout", or substitute according to their understanding/druthers.
 
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Offline bilmac

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Re: Scout Rifle?
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2012, 04:43:45 AM »
I think all the sudden interest is because Savage and Ruger thought a boost in gun sales would be good.
I have never thought that a forward mounted scope was any faster than a properly done standard mounting with the right comb height.
As I remember it the main purpose for the forward scope was so you could use clips to reload. Most of the actions used to make the original scouts were military and they had built in clip guides. The new factory scouts don't have clip guides.

Offline mannyrock

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Re: Scout Rifle?
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2012, 05:09:28 AM »
 
   The only time I got mildly interested in having a Scout was when Savage first brought out their scout rifle.  It was a great looking rifle, moderately priced, with detachable mag, receiver sights, plus forward scope mount.
 
   But after researching it, I discovered that these Savage Scouts had one itty bitty problem.  The magazines kept falling out, and were prone to jams or failures to feed.
 
   It never fails to amaze me how a gun maker can spend hundreds of thousands of dollars designing a new rifle for a specific purpose, and then end up with a product that just plain doesn't work.  And then, of course, since they have sunk the money into it, they put it on the market and hope nobody notices, or blame it on operator error.
 
   After two or three years, Savage apparently "fixed" these problems, by bringing out the "improved" Scout, with a different magazine catch and release system.  I don't think they improved the magazine, though, as I still read reports of failures to feed.
 
   How freaking hard is it in the 21st Century to make a .308 rifle that reliably feeds with a detachable magazine??  Apparently, Savage couldn't do it.
 
   After all of this, I never looked at the concept further.
 
Mannyrock

Offline Bart Solo

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Re: Scout Rifle?
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2012, 05:48:45 AM »
I am sorry but the scout rifle as defined by Jeff Cooper is a rifle whose time came and left back in the 1980s. 
 
There is no task the scout rifle is intended perform that can't be handled better by a trained rifleman employing a modern AR variant.   

Offline charles p

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Re: Scout Rifle?
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2012, 11:28:24 AM »
No hunting season for scouts (Boy or Girl) in NC.  We get scout cookies during the spring season.

Offline Bugflipper

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Re: Scout Rifle?
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2012, 07:13:34 PM »

   The only time I got mildly interested in having a Scout was when Savage first brought out their scout rifle.  It was a great looking rifle, moderately priced, with detachable mag, receiver sights, plus forward scope mount.
 
   But after researching it, I discovered that these Savage Scouts had one itty bitty problem.  The magazines kept falling out, and were prone to jams or failures to feed.
 
   It never fails to amaze me how a gun maker can spend hundreds of thousands of dollars designing a new rifle for a specific purpose, and then end up with a product that just plain doesn't work.  And then, of course, since they have sunk the money into it, they put it on the market and hope nobody notices, or blame it on operator error.
 
   After two or three years, Savage apparently "fixed" these problems, by bringing out the "improved" Scout, with a different magazine catch and release system.  I don't think they improved the magazine, though, as I still read reports of failures to feed.
 
   How freaking hard is it in the 21st Century to make a .308 rifle that reliably feeds with a detachable magazine??  Apparently, Savage couldn't do it.
 
   After all of this, I never looked at the concept further.
 
Mannyrock


Some of the issue is many American gun manufacturers such as Savage are too politically correct. They could have simply made their rifle to accept hk-91 mags. $5 a piece and they feed reliably.
Molon labe

Offline pathfinder

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Re: Scout Rifle?
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2012, 04:19:11 PM »

 The gunshops I know in Virginia can't give the Ruger Scout away.
 
Mannyrock

Please post which shops.  Ruger has had to stop taking orders because they are so backlogged.  Used Gunsite Scouts are selling for more than I paid for mine new.  I'd gladly take their Ruger Scouts off their hands especially if they are as you say trying to give them away.

Offline Swamp Rooster

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Re: Scout Rifle?
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2012, 04:16:19 AM »
  I think it all depends on were you live on how useful a scout rifle is . I am in Northern WI and up here in the brush and thick swamps a small short rifle is nice but if you come out of a swamp or thicket into an open hard wood stand or a clear cut you want a rifle that can reach out there a bit.. A good all purpose rifle like that scout is perfect for my kind of hunting. When I first heard of the Ruger Scout I was wanting one bad , it just seemed like the perfect all around gun for what I do .  I like the adjustable lenth of pull and it just comes to the shoulder nice and to the target even better. It is a great shooter and at a 125 yard I can pull up and nail a soda can very fast with the iron sights.
 I like the ARs but they just are not for me .... well at least not now . I want one but there are other things I want more.... possible a mini 14 lol. It might be just taste but up here you can hardly get a Ruger Scout in the gun shops and if they get one they are gone. Now I can see them not being a big seller in Wyoming or other open places  but up here in the brush and swamps they are a great gun. Swamp Rooster.
 

Offline dpastordan

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Re: Scout Rifle?
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2012, 01:31:16 PM »
I like the idea of a short bolt action rifle - minus the scout scope mount. I do like the receiver or peep sight option.  Personally, I would want a quick detachable receiver sight on a weaver mount....so I could put a low power scope (2X or a 1-4X) if I needed.  The scout mount seems popular with certain military rifles like the Mosin and the Mauser. One could scope a rifle without major altering a collectible - simply change out the rear sight.  If I remember correction, people used to put low power LER scopes on Winchester 94's for a time...a lever action scout rifle if you wish. 

Offline finisher

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Re: Scout Rifle?
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2012, 03:33:32 PM »
I recall a while back that their was alot of confusion as to what qualified as the proverbial "scout" rifle. People were going public with many variations. I also believe it was about the time that the Styer Scout first came on the scene. I can't recall exactly where or when, but I will try to research and repost an article that I read that listed the general features that made a "Scout" a SCOUT.
 
These features were supposedly coming from the mouth of Cooper himself. One was that it preferably be a short action with a cartridge not less powerfull than the .308 Win.
 
The loaded weight of the complete rifle was not to be more than 7.25 Lbs. ...or was it 6.75Lbs. I'm not certain but LIGHT was highly desirable.
 
Another requirement was that the rifle itself had to be mechanically accurate enough in the hands of an at least slightly above average shooter to consistently hit (JUST HIT) a man size target out to 500 (or was it 400) yards.
Remember, in combat, a wounded fighter removes three people from the fight not just one as in the case of a kill.
 
It is still vague in my memory.
 
The stripper clip loading guide was also a big feature and I recall some mention of modifications being made so that hi cap mags of the M1A or FAL type could be used.
 
I also recall the mention of the use of a tac sling which I believe is also the same thing as a "ching"  or safari  sling. (these things are the greatest on light weight ARs and pistol grip shot guns).
 
Anyway, what I read at that time gave me the impression that while this was being called the "one gun solution", handy dandy, do it all utility rifle, it's application was primarily a military one for exactly that ...a "SCOUT".
 
Let's not forget that Cooper was one of "The Proud and the Few". Those who "know" will tell you that the scout's primary job (not the sniper scout) is the gathering of what is refered to as human intelligence or HUMINTEL, something that is more valuable and reliable than any high altitude photo or SATIM (satilite image).
 
He is required to get in close, observe, and get out completely undetected without engaging the enemy. This is a guy who must travel very light and fast. You do not want to be humping even just a 60 pound  pack when you've got a couple dozen or so a@#holes with guns chasing after you.
 
When you are ON THE RUN, every 30 round Mag dropped is weight shed and feels like a boost in speed. This works well with a small UNIT doing a Dutch Peel untill your extract bird touches down but for the lone scout it is a much different story. Often that extract isn't coming. Which means every shot has to count for something even if all it does is take off tangos big toe at 400 yards.
 
Why carry 360 rounds  in mags when most of them will never hit their mark comming from an M16. The light weight, accurate scout rifle allows you to take cover  in thick brush without geting snagged, to run at almost a full dash while ducking down then popping up out of nowhere for a quick shot, but always staying on the move untill nightfall or untill a river or large body of water can be found, knowing that help is not always on the way. The less frequent requirement of maintenance doesn't hurt either when your on the move.
 
It is a concept that most conventional personell may never fully have to apply. This guy may have to be on the move for hours, even days. Cooper envisioned it because he understood this scenario. That is why the light weight, the stripper clip guide, the ching sling etc.
 
Keep in mind also that Cooper was of a much different era where the US military wasn't fighting in vast open deserts, and didn't have kind of logistical capability that it has today.

How many of you guys out there know the difference of running  DISTANCE (not jogging or dbl timing) while slingin a shorty as opposed to a 60 or even a 249. Your typical Recon Marine or Navy SeAL in training will run miles to the moon and back over any conventional personell and there is a reason for it.
 
The scout as Cooper saw it would give military personnel the handiness and targeting speed of a pistol with almost the same "reach out and touch someone" of the sniper rifle in the right hands.
 
 
I think the "scout" concept lost something when it started going commercial. For hunters and outdoorsmen I can see where it just doesnt quite find a niche. At 7.75 pounds, a single stack mag and no stripper guide, Ruger's rifle doesn't quite fall into what I remember being described. But then it still a little fuzzy to  me also.

Offline finisher

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Re: Scout Rifle?
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2012, 04:54:33 PM »
I am sorry but the scout rifle as defined by Jeff Cooper is a rifle whose time came and left back in the 1980s. 
 
There is no task the scout rifle is intended perform that can't be handled better by a trained rifleman employing a modern AR variant.   
Much as I love the scout concept, you are correct to a certain degree. Nothing like a fast follow up shot when the s@*t gets up close and thick. But the top loading option of the Scout does eliminate the need for bulky magazines thus shedding pack weight. I would say nix on the AR variant and go with the basic SOCOM w/ strippers minus all the rails and bells and whistles (keep it simple I say). You still get the top loading option with a more streamline conventional stock. Just preference I guess.

Offline grizzlyadams1874

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Re: Scout Rifle?
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2012, 03:03:56 AM »
i built mine out of a 98 mauser, i left it 8mm, as i have ALOT of ammo for it. plus i reload for it. i like it because it's compact, hard hitting and even the pistol glass works better for my eyes than irons. it's as big as my 3030 but hits like my 3006.  i use it for hunting. for combat purposes though, i'll take the springfield socom any day! ;)

Offline Bugflipper

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Re: Scout Rifle?
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2012, 06:14:40 AM »
Grizzlyadams I like that reply. Most folks put that they are fast pointing and all. I assume a dot scope would be the fastest target acquisition with an optic and a laser without. The point about the advantage of a low powered magnified scope over irons is a pretty good one IMHO.
 With the fast target acquisition, that could be debatable. The acog being used by the military has shown a low power scope in the standard position can be faster than one in the scout position. I have one rifle set up as kind of a scout, but not magnified. It is an AK. There are 3 options for mounts. A side rail that is a pain in the butt to install. A rattling top cover that bounces all over as the gun recoils. And to epoxy the top hand guard to the buffer tube. The first and last options are solid scope mounts. The last is just a cheaper easier solution. Since it's just a dot scope it is quick to line up.
Molon labe

Offline Swampman

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Re: Scout Rifle?
« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2012, 10:12:38 AM »
I have the Ruger Gunsite Scout.  They are selling like hot cakes.  Nobody can keep them in stock.
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Offline 45-70.gov

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Re: Scout Rifle?
« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2012, 01:12:04 PM »
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
they have about as much as they can for th AR
now they need a new market
 
some places you can't hunt with  simi-auto
people want to hunt with their tacti-toys


bolt is more reliable than  auto  they  say
but they ignore carbon rust and good stainless  won't...hard to find a stainless scout


nothing faster to me than a red dot.....untill the battery dies
red  dots are also very good  in poor light...until the battery dies
i like a peep sight  at the range....useless to me in the woods
low power with heavy plex  in either location....until it gets dark


i was going to set up a rifle with 2 scopes rather than back up sights
one red dot and  a 3X9.........
the cost of quality rings that would return to zero scared me off
i just set up 2 rifles  in 308

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Offline Bugflipper

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Re: Scout Rifle?
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2012, 07:40:53 PM »
How is that one shooting for you Swampy? Was wondering if you got it to tighten up yet?

Molon labe

Offline Swampman

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Re: Scout Rifle?
« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2012, 10:38:12 PM »
I've been working on two new Model 70s (and reflooring my den) and I haven't had a chance to shoot it again.  Maybe Sunday....
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline JeffG

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Re: Scout Rifle?
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2012, 06:26:28 PM »
I saw a Ruger Scout in 308 and a DBM, Picatinny rail
and flash hider. I got excited until I realized it would not fulfil my hunting or tactical needs
of target isolation, identfication and aquisition. Trophy judgement
With the bare rifle would be lacking also. My 2 cents.
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Offline Swampman

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Re: Scout Rifle?
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2012, 11:41:32 PM »
You're not supposed to be using a rifle scope for target ID or trophy judgement. ::)
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline Spanky

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Re: Scout Rifle?
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2012, 03:16:45 AM »
That's what binocs are for. ;)
 
 
 
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Offline mannyrock

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Re: Scout Rifle?
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2012, 04:48:00 AM »
 
    For all of you folks who "just can't find" a Ruger Gunsite Scout anywhere, go to Gunbroker.   There are dozens of them for sale.  Go forth and buy.
 
   IMO, they blew it, by putting that stubby 16 inch barrel on it, and the overly-long 10 round  hang-down magazine.
 
   Swampy, I guess you finished testing yours out by now, and I understand that the accuracy is not good.  I think you wrote elswhere that you now wish you had bought a Savage Hog rifle instead.
 
  Mannyrock
 
   

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Scout Rifle?
« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2012, 07:03:52 AM »
I am sorry but the scout rifle as defined by Jeff Cooper is a rifle whose time came and left back in the 1980s. 
 
There is no task the scout rifle is intended perform that can't be handled better by a trained rifleman employing a modern AR variant.   

he never really defined it in form he offered what it should have and it has evolved . Much has been learned since his death.
It is not a rifle that is made to preform a spefic task like a pure hunting rifle or sniper rifle but can be used for most things if needed. One main thing is ease of carry for long hauls. It needs good iron sights and/or optics , not just a scope anymore. It needs to be useful out to 300 yards or more . It needs a powerful round.  Ruger with the gunsite scout was to make it affordable and easy to get. Scout rifles are handy . They are sturdy . They are bullet proof and dependable. They need to be accurate . A lone scout is not going to take on a large group of enemy if they catch him off guard shame on him. But in a pinch he can fight his way out of trouble with good shot placement over spray and pray. If you had to cross wilderness or hostile land with not only enemy trying to get you but also critters who may try the same would you want a gun with lots of springs and moving parts or one that has over hundred years of success and a simple action with few parts ? A farmer or rancher might find a scout just the ticket or some one who travels alot andwants a short rifle to carry in his vehicle . I think it would make a very nice white tail rifle anywhere shots are under 300 yards.
The older I get the lighter I like my load to be  ;) ;)
 
If you are looking for a rifle to preform a spefic job the scout might not appeal but if you wan an utility rifle it might be just the ticket. One thing is you can take the initial concept and modify it to your taste , I hate the forward mounted scope but a halo sight up there is nice. Ruger  gunsite guns can be used either way conventional or scout with regard to mounting a scope. There are even adapters to conver a standard Ruger to a rail canterleviered to mount a scope scout style ........
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Swampman

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Re: Scout Rifle?
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2012, 09:42:03 AM »
The problem for me is I hate black rifles.......all of them.  I'd rather have a boltgun.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Scout Rifle?
« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2012, 10:40:25 AM »
I like bolt guns for what they are simple and rugged to start with. Good accuracy in the better ones. I don't care for the forward mounted scope but like the short bbl and OAL. They are handy. One thing the scout brings back is iron sights and I really like that for a go anywhere do anything gun.
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline wareagleguy

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Re: Scout Rifle?
« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2012, 01:37:55 PM »
We don't need to forget the lever guns in a "scout" setup.  I have a Marlin lever 444p with a scout scope . It's the sh$ts in the woods of Alabama.  It just gets the job done.
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Offline dpastordan

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Re: Scout Rifle?
« Reply #27 on: August 24, 2012, 08:35:11 AM »
I don't care for the forward mounted scope.  And what's with the peep sights and scope together?  You have to pull off the scope to use the peeps....and they work perfectly at up to 100 yards (My Marlin 30-30 has peeps and is zeroed at 75 yards...and I am confident of hitting critters further than that.)
 
For me a scout rifle would be one with a 2.5X scope or the Weaver's classic V3 (1-3X).  My "scout rifle" is a Browning BLR in .270 with a Weaver V3.  Set at 1X I can have both eyes open and shoot.  Get to more open terrain and set it at 3X.  I can pull of the scope and use iron sights if I want.  My set up on a BLR might be a little long for some tastes with the 22" barrel but it works for me. 
 
I just purchased an older Remington 700 ADL in .270.  It has iron sights on it and I found some older Weaver swing mounts.  I put a 4X scope on it.  If I need irons, I swing it out of the way.  Both sights are on the money at 100 yards.     

Offline ironglow

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Re: Scout Rifle?
« Reply #28 on: August 24, 2012, 08:50:23 AM »
  I may stand corrected somehow...but doesn't the forward mount of the scope drastically cut down the field-of-view in any given scope?  Doesn't that require a low-power scope, just to get enough field-of-view?
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Offline Swampman

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Re: Scout Rifle?
« Reply #29 on: August 24, 2012, 11:18:54 AM »
Anything other than this is not a Scout Rifle......it's something else.
 
By the definition of the Scout Rifle Conferences held under the auspices of Jeff Cooper the scout rifle has been defined as a general purpose rifle suitable for taking targets of up to 400 kg (880 pounds) at ranges to the limit of the shooters visibility (nominally 300 meters) that meets the following criteria:

Weight-sighted and slung: 3 kilograms (6.6 lb). This has been set as the ideal weight but the maximum has been stated as being 3.5 kg (7.7 pounds ).
Length: 1 meter (39 inches)
Nominal barrel length: .48 meter (19 inches)
Sighting system: Typically a forward and low mounted (ahead of the action opening) long eye relief telescope of between 2x and 3x. Reserve iron sights desirable but not necessary.  Iron sights of the ghost ring type, without a scope, also qualify, as does a low powered conventional position scope.
Action: Magazine fed bolt action. Detachable box magazine and/or stripper clip charging is desirable but not necessary.
Sling: Fast loop-up type, i.e. Ching or CW style.
Caliber: Nominally .308 Winchester (7.62 x 51 mm). Calibers such as 7 mm - 08 Remington (7 x 51 mm) or .243 Winchester (6 x 51 mm) being considered for frail individuals or where "military" calibers are proscribed.
Built-in bipod: Desirable but not mandatory.
Accuracy: Should be capable of shooting into 2 minutes of angle or less (4") at 200 yards/meters (3 shot groups).
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~