Author Topic: Zombie Max ammo a Lawyer magnet? (Read 5916 times)

S.S. · « **Reply #30 on:** April 07, 2012, 01:22:48 PM »

ignorant marketing in my opinion!
Many of the adds I see concerning firearms are just plain stupid
and make shooters look stupid also. Case in point are ads with half dressed women
holding the companies products with a "How big is your gun" look on their faces...
This makes gun owners look like perverts. Just what we need, more controversy
in the firearms world.

Brett · « **Reply #31 on:** April 07, 2012, 03:42:47 PM »

Half dressed women are used to sell everything from automobiles to Zig Zag rolling paper. The firearms industry hardly holds a monopoly in that regard.

Elwood · « **Reply #32 on:** April 23, 2012, 09:15:29 AM »

http://www.haroldfishdefense.org/
Look at what happened to Mr.Fish.
He had bad killer ammo and was convicted for it. It is a pathetic case.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #33 on:** April 24, 2012, 01:30:17 AM »

Its called marketing and if it did not work it would go away. Its all to draw attention . In most cases with ammo its just packaging , often its rounds that have been sold before in normal boxes.

Don't ya look forward to EAA and ads from Rev Moon ? ..............

I once worked for a company that did a job on a military base. It was the ABC store. Opening night they had trouble with the steam heat. I got sent to repair it. The store was filled with officers and women from naked to almost naked reping different booze. So that's nothing new.

keith44 · « **Reply #34 on:** April 26, 2012, 07:32:44 PM »

Quote from: kynardsj on March 22, 2012, 03:34:23 PM

Only factory ammo I shoot is shotgun and 22's, I just like rolling my own. These may be great stuff but reminds me too much of all these silly movies and video games. And I too agree with Spirithawk, it's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

I too shoot handloads 99.9% of the time, but where a jury and lawyer will have a field day with the survivor of a gunfight is if that survivor used custom made ammunition. "With all the factory made ammo you had to make your own so you could kill better?" Is one question I do not ever want to respond to, unless of course the shooting happens here at home. Then it was simply what was available

Spirithawk · « **Reply #35 on:** April 27, 2012, 06:36:46 PM »

I'll keep it simple. When my life, or the life of a loved one, is on the line I want the most lethal cartridge I can get! Wouldn't you?

keith44 · « **Reply #36 on:** April 27, 2012, 07:25:28 PM »

Quote from: Spirithawk on April 27, 2012, 06:36:46 PM

I'll keep it simple. When my life, or the life of a loved one, is on the line I want the most lethal cartridge I can get! Wouldn't you?

every lawyer will tell you not to use reloads or custom loaded ammo (wink wink)

Spirithawk · « **Reply #37 on:** April 27, 2012, 10:15:17 PM »

Quote from: keith44 on April 27, 2012, 07:25:28 PM

Quote from: Spirithawk on April 27, 2012, 06:36:46 PM
I'll keep it simple. When my life, or the life of a loved one, is on the line I want the most lethal cartridge I can get! Wouldn't you?

every lawyer will tell you not to use reloads or custom loaded ammo (wink wink)

Probably but my question to them would be, " Would you use marginaly effective ammo to protect yourself and your loved ones, or would you opt for the most effective legaly available?" If serious about protecting yourself, and loved ones, the answer should be obvious! If you shoot someone you'd best shoot to kill because a wounded advesary will not hesitate to shoot and kill you if still able. That being the case, dead is dead and the type of bullet doesn't make any differance as to how dead. I'm reminded of the scene in "My Cousin Vinny" where the topic is proper atire to wear when hunting and Marisa Tomei asks Joe Pesci if he thinks a deer, after being shot and killed, realy cares what the heck the hunter was wearing when he pulled the trigger.

" Legal is legal. So Mr. Attorney, do you abide by the law or by your personal opinion? "

drdougrx · « **Reply #38 on:** April 28, 2012, 02:10:05 PM »

Spirithawk....I know what you are saying....but...what is obvious to You and I is fodder for lawyers whose job it is to convince folks as to Their point of view. If the lawyer is against you, would you really want to admit and defiantly state under oath that you carry the most lethal ammunition possible???

.....And why good ladies and gentlemen of the jury would any reasonable person want to own ammunition such as this??? Unless ... of course that man has pondered, premeditated and planned to shoot someone....why else would anyone PLAN to carry ammunition so deadly as to deem it the most effective and lethal?

Effective and lethal for what reason exactly?

Surely these statements place the defendant's knowledge well above that of the typical citizen and therefore a reasonable man and woman of the jury would most assuredly agree that one who publically states he carries the most effective and lethal ammunition has an unnatural interest in using it.....for effectively lethal purposes!!!!

OK, OK...enough theatrics.....I'll calm down now.....I think well meaning statements can get anyone in trouble be those whose primary weapon is wordcraft......

Spirithawk · « **Reply #39 on:** April 29, 2012, 02:30:35 AM »

I too see what you are saying. However, couldn't that extend to just about any ammo that is not your basic ball type bullet? Couldn't an attorney ask, " Why did you carry Hollow Points, why jacketed bullets, why Ballistc Tips, why + P's, why a heavier grain than the lightest availble, why a .45 instead of a .22, why a handgun instead of just a knife, why any weapon at all?

What I'm trying to get at is that if we are that paranoid about what we carry then why carry at all? I've no illusoins that if we have to shoot someone all will go smoothly in court but just as we can expect an attorney to give us grief so too should we expect our own attorney to both point out common sense and, I hate to have to say it, but more importantly the law as to what is legal. Instead of fearing laws that do more to protect the criminal than the victom, instead of being so afraid that we tie our hands and carrying becomes more a token than a real defense, how about we do more to educate the public as to the realities of having to defend one's self? How about fighting to strengthen laws to protect victoms rather than criminals?

How about instead of carrying legaly, yet too afraid to actualy use our weapon to defend ourselve's and thus defeating the purpose of carrying in the first place, we admit to both ourselve's and everyone else that we go armed for a very important reason. That being that if it comes to the choice of a violent attacker living, or ourself or a loved one living, we choose ourself or the loved ones! We need to point out that there is a big differance between " PLANNING" to shoot someone and being "PREPARED" in case we actualy have to. If a jury can't understand that then the problem doesn't lie with what we carry it lies with our judicial systom and peoples perceptions of us. That being so, rather than change what we LEGALY carry, we need to change the systom and peoples perceptions!

drdougrx · « **Reply #40 on:** April 29, 2012, 08:07:33 AM »

Hey Spirit!

Great arguments...no question. The whole hollow point issue has been settled....the police use them in order to prevent ricochet....not to be more lethal....which is the real reason one would use them. If "perchance" an attacker happened to succumb to that bullet as a result of an attack on you...so be it.

You are also correct about the laws....i fear they are not applied with either commonsense or equally. Just look at the Trevon Martin case....what's the real story and will the laws be carried out based on fact or public discourse. Mass Ayoob told me and our class at LFI that if you survive a shooting, at best you lose less.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #41 on:** April 30, 2012, 06:54:20 AM »

Quote from: Spirithawk on April 27, 2012, 10:15:17 PM

Quote from: keith44 on April 27, 2012, 07:25:28 PM
Quote from: Spirithawk on April 27, 2012, 06:36:46 PM
I'll keep it simple. When my life, or the life of a loved one, is on the line I want the most lethal cartridge I can get! Wouldn't you?

every lawyer will tell you not to use reloads or custom loaded ammo (wink wink)

Probably but my question to them would be, " Would you use marginaly effective ammo to protect yourself and your loved ones, or would you opt for the most effective legaly available?" If serious about protecting yourself, and loved ones, the answer should be obvious! If you shoot someone you'd best shoot to kill because a wounded advesary will not hesitate to shoot and kill you if still able. That being the case, dead is dead and the type of bullet doesn't make any differance as to how dead. I'm reminded of the scene in "My Cousin Vinny" where the topic is proper atire to wear when hunting and Marisa Tomei asks Joe Pesci if he thinks a deer, after being shot and killed, realy cares what the heck the hunter was wearing when he pulled the trigger.
" Legal is legal. So Mr. Attorney, do you abide by the law or by your personal opinion? "

The US military has use marginaly effective ammo since they were forced to use FMJ bullets . They compounded the problem with 223 and 9mm. So many would have to admit they did use poor choices.
And yep a commowealth ( district) attorney can ask many questions in an effort to sway a judge or jury in the wrong direction. In some cases its all about politics and advancement not justice. The pathetic reality is Americans can shoot each other with the most deadly ammo but can't use it to repel our enemies whats up with that ?

keith44 · « **Reply #42 on:** April 30, 2012, 11:34:45 AM »

You and I agree Shootall, I wish our young men could use some of the projectiles available to civilians, and police. Battles might be shortened, and therefore other lives saved.

Spirithawk · « **Reply #43 on:** April 30, 2012, 01:04:15 PM »

Have you really looked at the Zombie cartridges? Pretty much the only differance between them and Hornady's Critical Defense ammo is the color of the incert! Zombies - Lime Green....Critical Defense - Red! That and the price. The Zombie loads are actually almost $5 cheaper!

Has anyone bothered to read Hornady's Disclaimer? Not really sure just what to make of it but it sounds like they are covering their own butts! Bet it would sure come into play in any court case! Here it is;
Disclaimer: Hornady® Zombie Max™ ammunition is NOT a toy (IT IS LIVE AMMUNITION), but is intended only to be used on…ZOMBIES, also known as the living dead, undead, etc. No human being, plant, animal, vegetable or mineral should ever be shot with Hornady® Zombie Max™ ammunition. Again, we repeat, Hornady® Zombie Max™ ammunition is for use on ZOMBIES ONLY, and that's not a nickname, phrase or cute way of referring to anybody, place or thing. When we say Zombies, we mean…ZOMBIES!

keith44 · « **Reply #44 on:** April 30, 2012, 05:12:14 PM »

spec's and price are the same for .380 acp

Spirithawk · « **Reply #45 on:** May 01, 2012, 06:48:23 PM »

I was looking at the 9mm. Just for kicks I messaged Hornady and asked them their opinion on the matter. Particularly since the Zombie Max and Critical Defense seems to be the same basic cartridge. When, and if, I hear back from them I'll let you all know their answer.

keith44 · « **Reply #46 on:** May 01, 2012, 08:26:35 PM »

Quote from: Spirithawk on May 01, 2012, 06:48:23 PM

I was looking at the 9mm. Just for kicks I messaged Hornady and asked them their opinion on the matter. Particularly since the Zombie Max and Critical Defense seems to be the same basic cartridge. When, and if, I hear back from them I'll let you all know their answer.

please do, I believe that the zombie thing is a marketing ploy

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #47 on:** May 02, 2012, 02:10:10 AM »

Quote from: keith44 on May 01, 2012, 08:26:35 PM

Quote from: Spirithawk on May 01, 2012, 06:48:23 PM
I was looking at the 9mm. Just for kicks I messaged Hornady and asked them their opinion on the matter. Particularly since the Zombie Max and Critical Defense seems to be the same basic cartridge. When, and if, I hear back from them I'll let you all know their answer.

please do, I believe that the zombie thing is a marketing ploy

no doubt !
It always makes me wonder the mind set of a person who totes a gun with the stated intent to protect themselves yet picks a gun or ammo that could cause them conviction or cost . Shouldn't one bent on protecting themselves protect for everything they can ?

Spirithawk · « **Reply #48 on:** May 02, 2012, 06:41:02 PM »

Ya know guys? I had to ask myself, if many cartridges are designed specificaly for target shooting and hunting then doesn't it make sense some be designed specificaly for self defense? That being said wouldn't it make sense to use them? Only reason not to I guess is because targets and animals don't hire attorneys. Unfortunately the families of criminals do! You know though? Call me crazy but I don't remember anyone being murdered with a gun and then the prosecuting attorney making an issue of what type of bullets were loaded in the firearm used. Wonder why that is? Oh yes, pardon me I forget sometimes, criminals have far more rights than law abiding citizens and justice only works if you can afford a better attorney than the criminal can! Then too you can bet the scumbags family and friends will testify as to what a sweetheart the scumbag realy is and how everyone else is at fault but the scumbag. Oh, and it helps if you don't get a bleeding heart jury and a mamby pamby prosecuting attorney and judge who live in a fantasy world never touched by violent crime themselve's and who buy into that crap and are more worried about their images than actually doing their jobs!

Sorry guys but I'm at the point that I've seen way too much violent crime in my life, and personaly not just in the news, and then seen the scumbags responsible walk free or get a sentence more suitable to jay walking than murder. My health is such that doctors have said I could drop dead any time without warning so every day is precious to me. I've survived way too much to fall victom to some low life scumbag looking for a quick buck to supply their next fix! I chose to say enough and gained a CCW Permit. I don't look for trouble but I dang well intend to be prepared if it comes my way. The cartridges I choose to carry are designed to stop a threat both fast and decisively. If it's between the scumbag waking up in the morning, or me, I prefer it be me and greaseball attorneys be damned!

keith44 · « **Reply #49 on:** May 02, 2012, 07:59:32 PM »

Easy there Spirithawk, I agree 100% that any scumbag knuckle headed fool who wants a quick buck for a fix that tries to take it from someone they perceive as being weak needs to be vaporized. My only concern is having to give scumbags survivors what I have worked a lifetime to accumulate through hard work and diligence. So when I heard about cases where criminally there was no case, but civil suits had been won based on the use of reloads it caused me to carefully choose what ammo I carry. Now home invasions, that's where I revert to earlier thinking. My home, my fortress, you're screwed (if not invited)

Spirithawk · « **Reply #50 on:** May 02, 2012, 08:47:44 PM »

Quote from: keith44 on May 02, 2012, 07:59:32 PM

Easy there Spirithawk, I agree 100% that any scumbag knuckle headed fool who wants a quick buck for a fix that tries to take it from someone they perceive as being weak needs to be vaporized. My only concern is having to give scumbags survivors what I have worked a lifetime to accumulate through hard work and diligence. So when I heard about cases where criminally there was no case, but civil suits had been won based on the use of reloads it caused me to carefully choose what ammo I carry. Now home invasions, that's where I revert to earlier thinking. My home, my fortress, you're screwed (if not invited)

I hear ya.

Heck though, the only thing of any value they could get out of me is a ton of medical bills.

I done gave anything of real value to my son and daughters. Heck, after all the operations even the blood flowing in my veins belongs to someone else. lol

cheapshooter · « **Reply #51 on:** May 04, 2012, 08:21:59 AM »

If you want double trouble carry Zombie Max 380 in your Ruger Zombie Slayer LCP!

I bought a couple boxes of ZM 9MM at Cabela's for testing in my new KAHR CM9 because Critical Defense is one candidate for my SD round. It's the same exact stuff as CD, but it was three bucks a box cheaper.

jimster · « **Reply #52 on:** May 04, 2012, 12:23:32 PM »

Quote

every lawyer will tell you not to use reloads or custom loaded ammo (wink wink)

We were told there has never been a case in this state where someone was prosecuted for defending themselves with handloads...by a lawyer. He stated self defense is always self defense...no matter if you use a gun or a club. The club could also be homemade.
So they ALL ain't sayin it. Now keep in mind that is is just this state, the rest of the states, I have no idea...but I don't live there. We been over this topic a million times. I carry what ammo I want in my guns, I also carry what guns I want, and all my guns are not what you would call self defense guns, I might have a 44 blackhawk with me with Keith bullets in there, and if it's all I have...that's what I will use at the time. Instead of a club....which I could also use in self defense.
If you live in a strange state where they stop looking at if it was self defense and start looking at your ammo...then throw the box away that says "Zombie Ammo"...do what you have to do I guess. I'm only interested in what the prosecutor in this area of the state thinks...if he is on my side there won't be any lawyers, case closed.

keith44 · « **Reply #53 on:** May 04, 2012, 02:18:15 PM »

An excellent point Jimster! My information is somewhat dated (a conversation with a county attorney who used to attend the same church I did some 15 years ago) the laws and views have changed since then. I will discuss this with a CCW instructor tomorrow and get more current info. I think as long as lawyers do not get into the situation everything would be fine, but too much attention diverted or focused in the wrong place can lead to civil suit troubles, in some parts of the country.

Spirithawk · « **Reply #54 on:** May 04, 2012, 04:37:05 PM »

Heck, concidering that Zombie Max and Critical defense is basicly the same dang cartridges it seems the issue is more about the packaging than the actual cartridge. Had they called it almost anything else we wouldn't be having this discussion.

jimster · « **Reply #55 on:** May 04, 2012, 04:43:03 PM »

Agreed Keith44....I guess we all have to keep track in our own areas the attitudes of those in power and what they been doing. It's not fair in some places what they do to some people who try to defend themselves. I'm not saying it could not happen to me either, I guess if they want to take you down for SD it would not matter if your box of bullets said "local police load" on it. They would just accuse you of trying to be a policeman or something. I guess if you get to the point of a lawyer/prosecutor wanting to charge you with something, your in pretty deep. Handloads might even help you then......"Factory rounds are just to powerful, I load them with half the power"...

...

Your CCW instructor might have the scoop on how they been ruling on self defense matters in your area and the actual self defense laws of the state, that would be good to know. They had a couple lawyers at the classes I took that were from the area too, and a county police officer, they all had a lot of info on this stuff.

Spirithawk · « **Reply #56 on:** May 05, 2012, 09:43:57 AM »

I guess the only thing that will satisfy some is if we carry firearms but don't load them. I mean, is not any bullet a potential "Man Killer" ? Maybe we could throw our firearms at a bad guy coming at you with a knife, or shooting at you, but if you were lucky enough to hit and imobilize your assailent I'm sure someone would take issue with the size and weight of your firearm. Point being, if we are so afraid to use our firearm when needed, then that sure defeats the purpouse of carrying it in the first place now don't it. Knowing how your local prosecuting attorney views self defense may ease your mind, or not, but that's all it does. You either carry and use your firearm if needed or you don't and stand there helpless. Fact is that if you do have to use it you're open to grief no matter what you carry or carry it loaded with if an attorney wants to go after you. Here in Missouri self defense is just that and if you can clearly prove self defense then no charges are filed against you in the first place.

keith44 · « **Reply #57 on:** May 05, 2012, 04:42:42 PM »

Well straight from the horses mouth:

In Ky, if the shooting was truly justifiable and no criminal liability can be leveled at the shooter, then no civil action can be taken against the person defending self, property, or others.

As to ammo, Ky forbids the use of two types of projectiles "armor-piercing" and "Flanged"

237.060 Definitions for KRS (Kentucky Revised Statute) 237.060 to 237.090

(8 ) "Flanged ammunition" means ammunition with a soft lead core and having sharp flanges which are designed to expand on impact.

This is the one they will hang you with if a shooting goes bad, or when the police respond and you answer their questions incorrectly. So handloads are acceptable, but pre-slit hollow points are a liability.

Spirithawk · « **Reply #58 on:** May 05, 2012, 07:42:55 PM »

Okay, here's the response I got back from Hornady;
Thank you for the inquiry. The Zombie Max rounds are made on the same machines as our Critical Defense bullets, however they are not tested for penetration or expansion. We introduced them for the novelty factor and zombie shoots (competitions with targets that look like zombies). It is intended to be for range use only. Thank you

So all the fuss is over nothing as far as Zombie Rounds are concerned if used as intended. As far as the name, well what else would you call a round designed for Zombie shoots?

Curtis · « **Reply #59 on:** May 06, 2012, 04:51:22 AM »

Quote

In Ky, if the shooting was truly justifiable and no criminal liability can be
leveled at the shooter, then no civil action can be taken against the person
defending self, property, or others.

Most states that have a strong Castle Doctrine have included this provision against civil suits. It is a great thing since the threshold of guilt is much lower (preponderance of evidence vs. reasonable doubt). I know Texas has it and I feel much better for it.

Curtis