Author Topic: Rimfire 22 or 17 (Read 3012 times)

SHOOTALL · « **on:** March 22, 2012, 04:17:32 AM »

Lets look at the rimfire from a long term option used in a hostile enviroment. Good points - light weight, accurate, used correctly can be deadly ( more so in a rifle ),some rounds use a regular bullet coupled with the rim it makes a moisture resistant round, and not hard on bbls or actions. Bad points - some rounds have the heal type bullet that is a weak seal aginst moisture, rough handling or poor manufacture can cause primer to get missed or dislocated from the rim, and on some the lube can be wiped off from handling .
Lets not turn this into a bashing but discuss the good and bad qualities assoicated with the rimfire and long term survival use. Self defense can be addressed as can taking large game etc. Best to stick with ammo as rifles and handguns are a different topic.
I would find a 22 mag. a good option in many cases . Also some feel 22 LR ammo will be the currancy of a post SHTF world .

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #1 on:** March 22, 2012, 04:27:24 AM »

I know there are lead bullets and copper plated bullets. Aren't the copper plated better? I think the 17 is a nich round and might not be good in a survival situation just because ammo might be harder to get. However, I know the 17 is more accurate, but how accurate do you need for just getting squirrels, rabbits, small game, or even deer size game? If for self defence against 2 legged predators, there are better rounds.

BUGEYE · « **Reply #2 on:** March 22, 2012, 04:34:18 AM »

my choice is 22lr. I have many thousands and of the four deer I have killed, all could have been taken with a 22lr.
I have one rifle set up for birds which may constitute most of my meat.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #3 on:** March 22, 2012, 04:41:24 AM »

I would go for the 22 mag for all the +'s I listed . I would thing copper washed bullets would be best

Shu · « **Reply #4 on:** March 22, 2012, 05:14:14 AM »

I don't see the 22lr round picking up much moisture. I guess if you went swimming with them. However reliability of ammo is always a concern and should be a consideration when making a purchase.
I have shot rounds that dated back to the 1960's when I was in the Navy. Your expeience with them may differ.

The lowly 22 is a great round, it is not the greatest end all round but it will definitely put food on the table and is better than nothing in a fight. I have a fairly good martial arts background and would still prefer a 22lr to going empty hand. Of course if I knew I was going to be in a fight tomorrow I would just stay home and avoid it.

BUGEYE · « **Reply #5 on:** March 22, 2012, 05:25:00 AM »

If someone is trying to break in, I have a 16 and 20 gauge shotguns with plenty of slugs and buckshot.
If I were just starting out to hoard ammo, I would probably lean toward 22mag.

schoolmaster · « **Reply #6 on:** March 22, 2012, 07:01:39 AM »

I would take the .22 LR over the .22 mag and either over the .17s. I have a .17 Mach2 and a .17 HMR CZ 452 American and both are absolute tack drivers. However as accurate as they are I still prefer the same rifles in .22 LR. The .22 LR are cheaper to shoot, have better availability, and can be had in subsonic rounds. The .22 LR CZs I have are very accurate, and nearly silent when moderated. Also I give the .22s the edge in windy conditions and in twigs and leaves. If you are shooting small targets at close range the trajectory of the .22 LR is better suited for precise aiming. As far as trade stock, the 22s would be the more common round. However I would probably find something else to trade unless really desparate.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #7 on:** March 22, 2012, 07:17:44 AM »

most 22 LR ammo will not stay sealed well. the bullet is not suited to that very well. If you are moving in a survival situation it would be hard to keep rain, snow or sweat off ammo long term.

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #8 on:** March 22, 2012, 09:07:58 AM »

One could always vacuum seal small boxes, and only cut open when needed. Might stay dryer that way.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #9 on:** March 22, 2012, 09:15:17 AM »

True for a time but how long ? those bags were for indoor use UV may break them down . But worth a try.

gypsyman · « **Reply #10 on:** March 23, 2012, 03:25:23 AM »

I remember reading on Veral's post a couple years ago, about CCI Velocitor, .22 ammo. So I found a couple box's at a gun show. Only test I've done so far, is that when I shoot it at one of my steel swingers, it sure seems to make a much louder thump/clang, whatever you want to call it. And, then on YouTube a couple months ago, somebody has a couple video's I watched, comparing Velocitor to several other brands. It penatrated deeper into ballistic gel, and retained more weight. Not sure how it might be as waterproof, but just sealing them up in a ziplock bag I would think would keep it dry enough, unless you fording streams and rivers. And, since I already have a couple 10/22's and semi-auto pistols, I'll stick to just buying more ammo for them. And, just for the record, I bought a couple of the factory 25rd. mags for the 10/22's that Ruger makes. I shot some of the Velocitor, and some Blazer out of my guns, and didn't have a hang-up. So, when I can, I'll get a couple more of the factory mags. But, I just reade a news story today, 3/23/12, that Ruger is so far behind in orders, their not taking any more orders till production catch's up. They figure in May. Obama's got one industry going.

gypsyman

Couger · « **Reply #11 on:** March 23, 2012, 05:46:59 AM »

Quote from: schoolmaster

I would take the .22 LR over the .22 mag and either over the .17s. I have a .17 Mach2 and a .17 HMR CZ 452 American and both are absolute tack drivers. However as accurate as they are I still prefer the same rifles in .22 LR. The .22 LR are cheaper to shoot, have better availability, and can be had in subsonic rounds. The .22 LR CZs I have are very accurate, and nearly silent when moderated. Also I give the .22s the edge in windy conditions and in twigs and leaves. If you are shooting small targets at close range the trajectory of the .22 LR is better suited for precise aiming. As far as trade stock, the 22s would be the more common round. However I would probably find something else to trade unless really desparate.

Well thought out.

You sound like a 'long rifle affecianado' who's done his homework, Schoolmaster.

But don't get frustrated by the nimrods who will still insist all the non-LR .22's are better!

Shu · « **Reply #12 on:** March 23, 2012, 06:59:31 AM »

I believe the age of 22 lr gives it a leg up also. The 17s look great on paper I have no experience with them, so I won't comment on them.

Shootall has me thinking about 22lr ammo. I think I'll put 10 rounds in a cup of water today and see if they fire tomorrow. 24 hrs under water should be a reasonable test. Test ammo will be the green box cheap stuff from walmart. I will attempt to fire them, any failures, I will pull the bullets and look and see if there is any visible moisture in them. I'll report tomorrow.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #13 on:** March 23, 2012, 07:11:10 AM »

22 is going to penetrate much better, an important consideration for any of your choises as there all underpowered. Its also going to be possible to by probably 3 times the ammo for a .22 for the same cost as a .17. Ive had one 17hmr and one of the shorter hrm2s Niether impressed me with there performance on game even the size of squirrels unless the range was 50 yards or less. 22 mag would be a much better choise but then your back to ammo cost.

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #14 on:** March 23, 2012, 10:12:47 AM »

What do you guys consider the best 22lr cartridges for long term storage, or ability to fire under high humidity or wet conditions?

I have a lot of different kinds, and do not like lead, since it corrodes more easily. I like the copper plated or jacketed better. I prefer solids if I can find them for survival purposes, as in a pinch they will penetrate better on a deer sized game.

Someone on another forum "Plainsmans Cabin" did a test with Stingers, Yellow Jackets, and Federal 40 grain solids in copper plating they had at the time. He did a few others that I don't remember. The Federal solids penetrated 5 milk jugs filled with water. The Stingers only penetrated 3. The others didn't fair that well. Haven't seen plated solids in a long time. You could once get the Federals from Wal-mart in a bulk pack. Someone needs to do another test with what is available now.

Also, aren't more manufacturers using aluminum cases now because of the high cost of copper used to make the brass? Can't reload them anyway.

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #15 on:** March 23, 2012, 12:07:20 PM »

Of the 4, 22 Mag is most versitle.
Many different bullet designs and weights
I have three of the four you named.
Could not get an M2 after having the HMR.
But of all the rrimfire rifles I have.
If I had ot pick one to use it would be the Marlin 882 mag fed with open sights, and the scope.
If the scope gets damaged, You know the rest.
I think the 22 mag has a few advantages over the 22LR in power and the real jacketd bullets.

BUGEYE · « **Reply #16 on:** March 24, 2012, 02:57:57 AM »

DD, I keep my daughter supplied with mini/mag solids. they are about the only one available but they are totally reliable in most autos, both pistol and rifle.

Rock Home Isle · « **Reply #17 on:** March 24, 2012, 03:39:27 AM »

The .22 lr is such a versatile weapon. Ammo is cheap and shooting it to maintain skill levels, or train new shooters, won't break the bank. I can have the calibre in many rifle/handgun configurations, making it an incredably universal calibre. In a survival situation, where BG's may be nearby...the report is going to be quiet and the projectile out of a .22lr is very accurate when fired from a quality firearm. If a person possesses good hunting/shooting skills, the .22lr can be used to take everything from small game rabbits and squirrels up to head-shooting & survival harvesting of deer sized game. The .22lr is such a highly valued firearm in the survival/prepper communities that it makes great sense to stock up on .22lr ammo. It is perfectly logical that the .22lr ammo will have trade and currency value should SHTF. The one MAJOR downfall of the diminuative .22, is it lacks the defensive knock-down power needed to be considered effective and consistantly reliable in a self-defense situation. But even with that being said...Its a "must have" weapon.

I shot the .22 Magnum for years until I discovered the .22 Hornet. The Hornet will do every thing that I care to do with the .22 Magnum, but it will do it at about 200 ft/sec faster; and I can handload the .22 Hornet for even better performance. I've recently developed a few loads using Lil'Gun powder that now puts the performance of the Hornet even farther beyond the .22 Magnum. The .22 Hornet has become such an amazing calibre to shoot due to its accuracy, effective range and reduced muzzle blast when compared to other centerfire calibres. Its hard to beat the trifecta of...reloadability, extended range (as compared to the .22 Magnum & .22 lr) and intense accuracy. These traits give the .22 Hornet a decisive edge over the .22 Magnum. In a survival sitaution, SHTF scenario, I'd probaly leave the .22 lr at home (Making the Long Rifle a fall-back/training weapon) and carry the .22 Hornet as a day to day defense/patrol/hunter-gatherer Rifle.

There is a critical drawback to the .22 Hornet. Your action selections are very limited as compared to the .22 Magnum or even the .22lr. This is a serious drawback; its not a "one calibre does all" like the .22lr. But for my money, the positives still out-weigh the negatives. I'll just have to carry a potent sideram or better yet...the SHTF never happens. Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

Couger · « **Reply #18 on:** March 24, 2012, 09:55:13 AM »

Quote from: Dixie Dude

What do you guys consider the best 22lr cartridges for long term storage, or ability to fire under high humidity or wet conditions?

I have a lot of different kinds, and do not like lead, since it corrodes more easily. I like the copper plated or jacketed better. I prefer solids if I can find them for survival purposes, as in a pinch they will penetrate better on a deer sized game.

Someone on another forum "Plainsmans Cabin" did a test with Stingers, Yellow Jackets, and Federal 40 grain solids in copper plating they had at the time. He did a few others that I don't remember. The Federal solids penetrated 5 milk jugs filled with water. The Stingers only penetrated 3. The others didn't fair that well. Haven't seen plated solids in a long time. You could once get the Federals from Wal-mart in a bulk pack. Someone needs to do another test with what is available now.

Also, aren't more manufacturers using aluminum cases now because of the high cost of copper used to make the brass? Can't reload them anyway.

What are considered that best .22's for long term storage? Depends on the 'age' or how long ago a particular batch (or brick, or case, or whatever quantity) was manufactured, as well as how the ammo was stored!! (an airtight container or ammo can at moderate temperatures have proven to be best for such a task).

At that point "humidity" or any moisture shouldn't be a factor! (I grew up in NW Florida, and humidity is the one thing I NEVER got used to! Also I went through my dad's flight gear after he died, including his Navy issue survival kits.) The lead sinkers in my pops' survival kits had all deteriorated into lead oxide powder, but that was because those sinkers weren't stored as well as ammo should be! Along with being undisturbed for 20 or more years!

Also if I was going to select only ONE LOAD in a .22 long rifle for long-term STORAGE for all my "rainy decade" uses (for you Boston T. Party fans), it would be thee standard velocity, solid lead round nose, 40 grain non-hollow-point load!

That STANDARD VELOCITY LR is the most basic .22 Long rifle loading, but its already subsonic at its industry standard 1040 to 1070 fps MV.

That same configuration describes almost ALL "standard velocity" .22LR loads,
but also MOST premium target loads too (and YES I'm talking about Eley, Lapua, Fiocchi, SK, and even the very best loadings from CCI, Wolfe, Federal and others).

CCI probably offers more rimfire selections for all four typical rimfire cartridges, than any other company in the world! (check out their website, or go to MidwayUSA.com and check out their site (very easy to navigate)).

The only rimfire cartridge I'm aware of that CCI doesn't load for is the 5mm Remington.

If one peruses the CCI selections, YES that company offers copper coated Mini Mags with and w/o hollow-points, and also the well known Stingers or Velocitors .....

But the CCI .22 SGB loading (small game bullet) is all lead!
And so is their 'Green Label' match ammo,
their 'Pistol Match' ammo,
and their 'Subsonics' and 'Standard' loadings too.

And how many of you reading this are aware of CCI's new 'Quiet-22' loading?
This new Quiet-22 is basically a "CB" type long rifle cartridge,
with a lead 40-grain round nose bullet (versus the usual 29-grain slugs used in 'CB' shells).

Velocity is the same reported 710 fps MV as with the CB Shorts or CB Longs, but in a cartridge that will fit a whole chamber like a .22 Long Rifle round! Accuracy should be good, and performance increased over the "CB's."

Shu · « **Reply #19 on:** March 24, 2012, 09:56:45 AM »

I finished the test-22lr ammunitions submerged in water for 24 hrs. 10 rounds 10 failures to fire. I pulled the trigger and the gun went click. This was a shocker for me. In the future I will try to narrow this down to more of an exact time of how long 22lr ammuntion can be submerged.

Couger · « **Reply #20 on:** March 24, 2012, 10:07:21 AM »

Quote from: Shu on March 24, 2012, 09:56:45 AM

I finished the test-22lr ammunitions submerged in water for 24 hrs. 10 rounds 10 failures to fire. I pulled the trigger and the gun went click. This was a shocker for me. In the future I will try to narrow this down to more of an exact time of how long 22lr ammuntion can be submerged.

Why sweat it!!?? That just tells me to never get ammunition .... "wet!" And if it does, dry it immediately.

Another interesting 'test' would be to take severasl .22 rounds (if you're so inclined) and drench them with 3-in-1 or WD40 oils. Then try shooting them after 1-hour? 2-hours? 6-hours? 12-hours? next day. etc. Cutting or penetrating oil is extremely detrimental to powder and primers.

As an aside, When watching the [too] numerous shows, reports, film clips on the Navy S.E.A.L.'s emerging from a water-environment with their weapons ready and obviously loaded ..... how long is their ammo good for!!?? And is it any good afterward if they don't shoot?

Shu · « **Reply #21 on:** March 24, 2012, 12:26:29 PM »

Why sweat getting your ammo wet?

Lets see you are out 4X4 ing and going camping. You ford a river a bit deeper than was planned. Your 22 lr ammo gets wet without your knowing. You were going to pot a rabbit or 2 on your trip. Or you small plane goes down and you have to walk out. You have to cross several small rivers getting back to civilization.

Why sweat how long your ammo sets in penetrating oil? Same reason as sweating about it sitting in water. I am sure there has been lab studies etc. Just a matter of googling it. My experiment was just something to do becuase I was going shooting anyway.

SEAL weapons and ammuntition are considered consumables and are written off almost immediately upon deploying.
Military ammo is the same as you and I purchase it is just packed differently.

Couger · « **Reply #22 on:** March 24, 2012, 03:49:13 PM »

Quote from: Shu

..... lets see you are out 4X4 ing and going camping. You ford a river a bit deeper than was planned. Your 22 lr ammo gets wet without your knowing. You were going to pot a rabbit or 2 on your trip. Or you small plane goes down and you have to walk out. You have to cross several small rivers getting back to civilization.

My gosh. I hope you've never actually crashed before, but where are you driving through streams that are too deep? In the first place I don't drive through streams, and certainly not water deeper than the clearance of my vehicle.

Are you someplace like Alaska?

As for crashing, my pops was a military pilot, and from time to time I got to watch him go though his flight gear as well as his survival kits. We also went camping as a family and still do.

Why didn't you check to see if water got into your cab? I don't ford streams like you do Shu, but I did go through a few hurricanes growing up and I could share my own 'stories' about those!

But for keeping ammo or gear dry, there's almost unlimited soft or hard containers for such things. And for short or long-term storage, I've used a lot of clear packaging tape (like for mailing things?) to wrap or seal small containers of gear, or even boxes of ammo.

As for ammo coming into contact with oil, it happens more often around my wife's home than does water!

schoolmaster · « **Reply #23 on:** March 24, 2012, 04:43:15 PM »

When I was a kid my mom's aunt and uncle stayed with us one summer. He kept clothing, fishing tackle, and his single shot shotgun and 22 rifle in the trunk of his car. He had some ammo packed in there too and told me that he had carried it in the trunk for over 20 years. We had a hawk problem getting after our chickens and he got out the rifle and shot at one perched in an old dead tree about 150 yards away. It took several shots but he managed to hit it. Now that ammo from that cardboard box went bang every time. When he traded cars he just put the stuff in the trunk of the new one. As I recall he had the ammo in a pint mason jar with a metal lid on it.

Shu · « **Reply #24 on:** March 24, 2012, 05:57:59 PM »

Was a simple test and some simple, dang I could have gotten my gear wet examples.
Here is a much better scenario:
I was running from zombies. The zombies had a dog handler with them. While running to the extraction point, crossing streams and swamps to slow them down and possibly increase my lead. (Everyone knows zombies don't like streams and swamps). Having zombies show up at your extraction site is considered bad manners.

You can fool the zombies but the dog handler and his dog are not going to be fooled easily. You have to slow them down and you do not engage a much superior force unless absolutely a last resort. Terrain even though very rough can be your friend. So instead of John Wayneing it I ran like a thief in the night ( I may have thrown my hands up and ran like a little girl also). I went through streams, swamps and anything else I could find to slow down the pursuit. I made it to the extraction point and was a a bit happy to be there. I was covered with dried mud, slime and was a "slight" bit odiferous to say the least. I was far enough ahead of the pursuit the extraction was no big deal. If I had missed the extraction would my ammo still have been good? How many days could I have avoided pursuit waiting for the next extraction? If I had missed extraction I would have a 20 mile walk through more rough terrain to cross a border and find transportation. It would have made for a very long trip.

Having said all that Couger maybe camping and hunting with you would be much better. Throw a pot of coffee on buddy, and you can tell me about those hurricanes.

Couger · « **Reply #25 on:** March 25, 2012, 06:37:17 AM »

Quote from: Shu

..... I was running from zombies. The zombies had a dog handler with them. While running to the extraction point, crossing streams and swamps to slow them down and possibly increase my lead. (Everyone knows zombies don't like streams and swamps). Having zombies show up at your extraction site is considered bad manners.
You can fool the zombies but the dog handler and his dog are not going to be fooled easily. You have to slow them down and you do not engage a much superior force unless absolutely a last resort. Terrain even though very rough can be your friend. So instead of John Wayneing it I ran like a thief in the night ( I may have thrown my hands up and ran like a little girl also). I went through streams, swamps and anything else I could find to slow down the pursuit. I made it to the extraction point and was a a bit happy to be there. I was covered with dried mud, slime and was a "slight" bit odiferous to say the least. I was far enough ahead of the pursuit the extraction was no big deal. If I had missed the extraction would my ammo still have been good? How many days could I have avoided pursuit waiting for the next extraction? If I had missed extraction I would have a 20 mile walk through more rough terrain to cross a border and find transportation. It would have made for a very long trip.

Having said all that Couger maybe camping and hunting with you would be much better. Throw a pot of coffee on buddy, and you can tell me about those hurricanes.

"Zombies?" Glad you made it! Imagine your family was glad to have you back too.

I've never had to run from tracking dogs, but that would indeed be a beeotch.

Hurrican stories? Not nearly as good, since everyone in my famm survived. But to this day there is still a foundation in Gulfport, MS where Hurrican Camille blasted through in 1969. Camille was a true cat-5, but very localized compared to Katrina. That foundation is all that's left of a beach-side motel where 6 couples held a hurrican party, before the storm totally destroyed and raized that building! ONE WOMAN survived. She came to up in a tree, after remembering the last time she saw her husband was right before that building started coming apart. She never saw again her hubb nor any of the other people from that night.

I was in still in grade school the following summer when my family visited friends in Biloxi and Gulfport. What that storm did was undescribeable, including how the two ships it left high, dry and marooned were 1/4 mile inland! And you could walk out from the beaches 300-400 yards and still only be waist deep in the surf! There were also lots of tornados, and no rhyme or reason how one home might be damaged or totally destroyed, and the one right next to it virtually untouched.

The one-best-lesson my pops imparted to his children regarding natural disasters was don't EVER mess around with mother nature!

When a hurricane (or blizzard, or flood, or forest fire, tsunami, etc) is coming, evacuate and get the heck outta the way! Hopefully we'll never again in our lifetimes witness another storm like Katrina clobbering the U.S.

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #26 on:** March 25, 2012, 06:39:42 AM »

I have lived around the country, from the coast of NJ to the Coast of Va to the deserts of southern CA to the coast of Northen CA and not to mention my parents house in NC in a swamp.
I have had 22 LR in all the enviroments and some has made it through a huricane. I have found that storing ammo in surprise, surprise 30 caliber and 50 caliber military ammo cans works to keep out excessive moisture keeping ammo free of damage or powder loss. A 30 caliber can I had in the mud room at the parents house had a box of 308, a box of shotgun shells and a brick of 22. I was submerged in the last Huricane and when I was there at Christmas this year I hunted with the duck loads and we shot the 22's plinking.
Clearly keeping a 30 or 50 cal can in the truck wiht ammo and a few other items you do not want to get wet.
I have multiple ammo cans in the garage all labeled with the caliber or Ga inside.
As far as driving around, Living in Norfolk I have had to drive through flooded roads to get here or there. Knowing that you build up a bow wake and drive you can drive you car through deeper water than you think.
As long as you have the windows closed and the vent on high you will be water tight. Roll down a window and you will watch water come pouring in under the doors and flood the inside of the car.

Couger · « **Reply #27 on:** March 25, 2012, 06:44:37 AM »

Wish I could find a good deal on those .30-cal cans, to store scap lead.

There's also 'fat 50' ammo cans available, that (four) M249 magazines come in for the military.

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #28 on:** March 25, 2012, 06:51:09 AM »

Quote from: Couger on March 25, 2012, 06:44:37 AM

Wish I could find a good deal on those .30-cal cans, to store scap lead.

There's also 'fat 50' ammo cans available, that (four) M249 magazines come in for the military.

I also have a 20MM can that holds a lot but too big, well too heavy to lug around when full bullets.
That is why I like the 30 and 50's
I found an Army - Navy store in Southern Ca that had them for a good price and I could pick them out.
Not to mention all the other cool stuff the place has.
And stopping in with a $20 bill every other month will get you quite a few over time.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #29 on:** March 26, 2012, 12:34:24 AM »

im with mcwooduck. Go to an army surplus store and buy an ammo can or two and store your 22lr in them. Ive never seen 22 ammo go bad stored like that.