Belly Gun Distance ????????????

[Hodr]

Shootall started me thinking a couple of days ago with a mousegun thread.  To fit my own needs I procured a NAA mini revolver, not even the the 22 mag, I got the 22lr.  As I age I am more and more concered with close quarter capability.  In the past a revolver with a "Fitz treatment"  was the embodiment of a belly gun.  That is to say a weapon designed to be fired at a distance so point blank that the gun was actually touching its target.  Such employment of a weapon would not only cause an entry wound but would also blow in hot expanded gas.  In my mind such a use of a weapon would only be justified when;
1    I was in fear of vast,VAST, bodily harm
2    Every thing else had been tried
3    It was the absolute last alternative
I am open to suggestions and comments but I might add that I do have a conealed carry and a cane. I have been taught how to use both by professinals.  These are for beyond arms reach. My concern as I said above is when I am in arms reach or closeror when it appears I am disarmed.
 
Hodr

[charles p]

You worry too much.  Just get a handgun, period.

[Couger]

Shootall started me thinking a couple of days ago with a mousegun thread.  To fit my own needs I procured a NAA mini revolver, not even the the 22 mag, I got the 22lr.  As I age I am more and more concered with close quarter capability.  In the past a revolver with a "Fitz treatment"  was the embodiment of a belly gun.  That is to say a weapon designed to be fired at a distance so point blank that the gun was actually touching its target.  Such employment of a weapon would not only cause an entry wound but would also blow in hot expanded gas.  In my mind such a use of a weapon would only be justified when;
1    I was in fear of vast,VAST, bodily harm
2    Every thing else had been tried
3    It was the absolute last alternative
I am open to suggestions and comments but I might add that I do have a conealed carry and a cane. I have been taught how to use both by professinals.  These are for beyond arms reach. My concern as I said above is when I am in arms reach or closeror when it appears I am disarmed.  Hodr

Hodr, Have you ever read John Ross's "Unintended Consequences"?  There is actually some discussion in that 'story' about whether your question above could really happen?
 
That book is a great read (altho risque in places), and contains MANY worthwhile (and unknown) TRUE facts and trivia about the gun looney world (and culture    ) .
 
 

[Hodr]

Hello Charles,
I own more than one handgun and those in various sizes and calibers. When I was younger close quarters, good with your hands, was a reality.  I have had a CCW for quite a while now and have mostly carried a J frame.  I find that I am carrying less than I used to because of size and weight.  The NAA mini is less than 5 ounces and goes with me whenever I have clothes on, I just don't have to think about it.
 
Hello Couger,
Unintended Consequences is a work of fiction.  I do not know wether it is dependent on fact or not.  I do know that a 12 ga shell loaded in a bang stick will stop almost any shark there is.  I also know that when you cut that shark open it appears that there is far more damage than the pellets in the shell could cause, maybe some other divers could weigh in with thier observations.
I have been less than arms length distance from persons who thought to do me or those with me great harm.  As I am older and less physically capable the only solution I have come up with is a belly gun of some type.  Classicly a belly gun has been a revolver 38 or larger caliber with a 2' or less barrel with the front sight, and the front  of the trigger guard removed. It was generally a weapon that was used on contact with the target.  As I find that this much weight and recoil is a problem, I have settled for The Naa mini, next thing on the list would probaly be a push dagger.  If it  was leagal, and it is not, I would really prefer a 20 guage shell in a six inch long bangstick.
 
Hodr
 

[Couger]

Unintended Consequences is a work of fiction.  I do not know wether it is dependent on fact or not .....

UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES IS A WORK OF FICTION ....?   
You OBVIOUSLY haven't read it!
nor appreciate the reasons for doing so.
 
Byallmeans, don't bother!

[charles p]

If you feel you need to carry a handgun every day, I think you should really consider moving.  Your life must be very stressful.  Do you live where crime is rampant and life is worthless?  Life is much simpler where I live.  My wife and I each have CC permits, but the advantage to us is not having to get new permits if we decide to purchase another handgun. 
 

[mcwoodduck]

Get what handgun you can shoot.
If it is a little pocket pistol or a small revolver and depending on what you want or what caliber you feel you need.
now there are some techniques for retained contact shooting.
If you think this is a real possibility then I suggest taking an advanced carry class and learning to use them.
And then practice them when you are shooting.
I was in a class reciently where they had us strike the target like you were boxing and I threw the Jab and came out with the sig and having boxed for  few years made the cross with the auto and trhen realized I needed to shoot.
 

[Victor3]

1    I was in fear of vast,VAST, bodily harm
2    Every thing else had been tried
3    It was the absoulue last alternative

 For most folks, one of the first things to go during the above would be manual dexterity.
 
 Hopefully you'll be able to 1) find that tiny NAA in a pocket 2) remove it 3) get a firm grip on it 4) manage to cock & fire it. Can you do all that in a few seconds while a strong young man determined to kill is within arm's length, maybe punching your face? I wouldn't bet my life on it, but that's exactly what you'd be doing. If you're lucky you might get one shot off.
 
 IMO, for your specific scenario you'd probably be more likely to prevail by using the push dagger or some other small fixed blade knife.

[Duke0313]

Get a good dog to keep the attacker occupied, then use any gun you want!

[WD45]

I think the trained dog is one of the best things you could have. They gotta get past the dog 1st   I never was much on pocket carry. I have a hard enough time getting my keys out of my pocket much less a itti bitty gun. then fumble around with it so you could cock it. To me it is hard to retrieve a gun out of my pocket ( pants pocket ) in any other position than standing up. If an attacker is past arms length he is on top of you and if he has you on the ground I dont think you could dig it out of your pocket before he has done the damage he wants or needs to do. One of the small 380's like the keltec or LCP weight very little and all you need to do is pull the trigger

[pastorp]

Hodr,

If I'm understanding your situation right you might not really be able to defend yourself in a close encounter. Those little sa revolvers are tough to shoot, I can't because my hands don't work right anymore. I carry a jframe in 22mag a lot. Maybe you should look at that.

Regards,

[Hodr]

First I would like to thank all for thier help and comments.  I have been up on the Mogollon rim with the brother in law for the last few days.  I have a holster that hides my NAA in plain sight for crossdraw or strong side, at 5 oz I don't really notice it any more on my belt in either position.  It is not as quick to get to as the vests I have had made for my 38 snub, but when I have my pants on it is always there, I don't always wear the vest.  Brother in law went down to local dairy and picked up a couple hundred empty milk jugs.  We filled them with water and so far I have used them as contact targets for over 400 stingers.  When I say contact I mean touching the jug. Please understand this is sitting, off of the ground and mostly standing.  I now know how to get the Little Last Chance NAA out, in my hand, in battery and pull that small trigger. I don't have to see it to get to it.  Towards the end I picked up some Alguila 60gr subsonic.  I wouldn't use this ammo past 50' but at under a foot it flat tears up a gallon jug.  One problem came up over and over again though.  I could not cease holding it adaquetley where it did not chew out a piece of my thumb.  Recoil woud shove the back of the cylinder into my thumb at leat once about every five rounds.  After the first day it occured to me that if the only negative was a scraped thumb, I could get used to it.  The only other problem I had was the rank smell of the Alguila ammo.
 
Hodr

[jlwilliams]

My only objection to the NAA mini revolvers (yes, I do have one so this is a first hand observation) is they are soooo small that I question if I could handle it effectively under stress.  Don't get me wrong, it's a neat little gun and there is a lot I like about it.  The problem is, like another poster said, being able to grip it, cock it and fire it with the reduced digital dexterity that comes from adrenaline.
 
  For a 'belly gun' I got a little KelTec p32 years ago when they first came out.  It is tiny and light weight.  It has a clip on it so that it can be clipped to the clothing with or without a holster.  Being double action only it is easy to fire.  Having just a little more to grab onto and no hammer cocking action required makes it a fair option for that sort of thing.
 
  Another route you may consider is an ultra light weight revolver.  Since you are used to shooting a snubby, it isn't any different movements to practice.  Light weight alloy revolvers have a reputation for not being as durable shooters as a steel gun, but we aren't talking about a high volume pleasure plinker.  The new ones are more advanced than the old ones to.  There are aluminum, titanium and now even polymer revolvers out that are easier to carry than the old guns.  Not your grandpappy's wheel gun by any means.
 
  Glad you like what you got and not trying to disparage it or otherwise pee in your corn flakes.  I just doubt that I could use it effectively if my life counted on it.  Mine just comes out for an occasional day at the range for the novelty of it.

[Victor3]

Glad you like what you got and not trying to disparage it or otherwise pee in your corn flakes.  I just doubt that I could use it effectively if my life counted on it.  Mine just comes out for an occasional day at the range for the novelty of it.

+1
 
 Another note on "Belly" guns - A shot to the abdomen is one of the more survivable hits one can take, even when talking about a larger caliber.
 
 Effective self defense with a gun at close range is all about stopping an attacker immediately, not wounding him and hoping he'll 'think twice' about advancing.
 
 In the few fist fights I've been in, I never felt any pain until it was all over. I imagine it might be similar if I were involved in a serious fight (for life) where someone shot me in the gut with a single round of .22 lr. Adrenaline is interesting stuff, and when pumped up on it I've never 'thought twice' about anything other than my objective (fight or flight).

[mechanic]

I don't know what you consider close....I can shoot accurately with my NAA to 10', enough to keep them in a 2" bullseye.  I wouldn't consider it much beyond that.  I practice often with it, as the sights are  useless to me, but I can snap shoot after a draw from my pocket and hit the end of a coke can.
 
The NAA is the last resort anyway, as you have alluded.  When there is no where to run, you pull the pistol.
 
Personally, I hope I never have to.
 
Ben

[mannyrock]

Hodr,
    I sympathize with your position, and understand that you are truly worried.  But I must tell you that you are quite simply going down the wrong road.  In fact, you are just going to get yourself killed.  Victor's comments were 100% correct.  You will not be able to defend yourself by trying to fumble with and fire that little tiny gun.  And even if you did get a shot off, if the guy weighs  200 pounds, is wearing a coat or a belt, or you strike a rib, he is going to proceed to tear you from limb to limb.
    You are correct that you should only use a firearm as a very last resort to save yourself from death or immediate serious bodily injury.  But, once you make the decisions to use one, it doesn't matter what size gun you use. The law treats all of them the same.  So, it is really nonsensical to go with a mouse gun that will get you killed, trying to get belly close with an attacker, instead a small framed lightweight .38 special loaded with P+ rounds that will actually stop him at 10 feet and save your life.
   Assuming you have your carry permit, carry it in the right hand pocket of a windbreaker, where you can easily slip your hand in and around it if you feel threatened.  If you must use it, dont' try to pull it.  Just shoot straight through the windbreaker.
    I know it is hard, but unhook your train of thought from this tiny mousegun idea.  Sad to say, but probably more than half of your assailants would be able to take it away and shove it down your throat before you can fumble it out and cock it.   Don't mean to be harsh.  Just trying to save your life.
Best,  Mannyrock
 
 
 

[Rex in OTZ]

some europeans had a diffrent view on piling on the hurt.
 
The defensive small caliber hand gun was to replace the ice pick/dirk/stiletto, so one could stand out of range of a knife wielder and poke em a couple in the guts with one of these.

[jlwilliams]

Great pics of vintage pocket guns.

[gatorshooter]

a sharp fixed blade may be a better choice at this distance. If someone gets that close... go "sewing machine" method on him.. keep poking till he stops! messy... but effective. no hammer to cock, no trigger to pull! 

[mannyrock]

 
     Unfortunately, a concealed carry permit only entitles you to carry a concealed handgun, nothing else, including knives over 4 inches.
     And, almost every state has an old statute from the 1930s that specifically forbids the carrying of deadly weapons, including "dirks, daggers, sword canes, black jacks, brass knuckles, ice picks, lead pipes, etc."
    So, carrying a knife over 4 inches, or any type of sword cane, would generally be a felony.
   

[mcwoodduck]

     Unfortunately, a concealed carry permit only entitles you to carry a concealed handgun, nothing else, including knives over 4 inches.
     And, almost every state has an old statute from the 1930s that specifically forbids the carrying of deadly weapons, including "dirks, daggers, sword canes, black jacks, brass knuckles, ice picks, lead pipes, etc."
    So, carrying a knife over 4 inches, or any type of sword cane, would generally be a felony.
   

Generally you only need 3" to get to the soft squishy parts that leak lots of blood. 

[spacer]

...and as we all know, bad guys will always follow the law to the letter, obviating our disturbing need to carry the proper tools of self defense. 

[gatorshooter]

Glock 23....

[Victor3]

     Unfortunately, a concealed carry permit only entitles you to carry a concealed handgun, nothing else, including knives over 4 inches.
     And, almost every state has an old statute from the 1930s that specifically forbids the carrying of deadly weapons, including "dirks, daggers, sword canes, black jacks, brass knuckles, ice picks, lead pipes, etc."
    So, carrying a knife over 4 inches, or any type of sword cane, would generally be a felony.

 Party poopers. They sure have taken the fun out of maiming people.
 
 Wonder where this handy little gem would fall under the laws. Not like it's concealed or nuthin. 
 
http://www.trueswords.com/extreme-black-self-defense-p-4953.html
   

[Needles]

     Unfortunately, a concealed carry permit only entitles you to carry a concealed handgun, nothing else, including knives over 4 inches.
     And, almost every state has an old statute from the 1930s that specifically forbids the carrying of deadly weapons, including "dirks, daggers, sword canes, black jacks, brass knuckles, ice picks, lead pipes, etc."
    So, carrying a knife over 4 inches, or any type of sword cane, would generally be a felony.
   

Generally you only need 3" to get to the soft squishy parts that leak lots of blood.

There are at least 12 points on the human body where a blade can slice less than 1" and cause a fatal wound: Both carotids, both jugulars, both femoral veins, both femoral arteries, both brachial arteries, popliteals, radials, ulnars, etc. Don't give up a good slash waiting for an opportunity to stab. 

[mechanic]

In Ga. a knife over 3" is considered an offensive weapon, but can be legally carried with a CCP just like a gun can.  Unfortunately with a gun, it MUST be in a holster, and the holster cannot be such that it can be fired while in the holster.  So a gun in a pocket, must be holstered...it would have to be drawn and unholstered to be used.
 
I am a small man, and I cannot conceal a large gun easily.  When I can, esp. in the winter I carry a substantial firearm.  Other times, I carry a NAA, essentially a belly gun.
 
Ben

[SHOOTALL]

So the op listen to me , poor guy .
Some thoughts on a mouse gun. If you use it give it all the chance you can. Stick it in a mouth , ear , eye or up the nose if possible that way bullet is already part way in and headed in the right direstion.
 
Ya don't need to be in a high crime area to carry every day . Unless you can predict the future it would be wise to carry all the time.
 
As for blowing gas into the bad guy remember alot of STUFF will be comming back on you and your gun which may cause your gun to stop shooting.
 
and yes as a last ditch effort it makes sense if the cane and other weapon fail or you can't use either.

[gstewart44]

     Unfortunately, a concealed carry permit only entitles you to carry a concealed handgun, nothing else, including knives over 4 inches.
     And, almost every state has an old statute from the 1930s that specifically forbids the carrying of deadly weapons, including "dirks, daggers, sword canes, black jacks, brass knuckles, ice picks, lead pipes, etc."
    So, carrying a knife over 4 inches, or any type of sword cane, would generally be a felony.
   

Fortunately in the state of Florida you can carry a dirk/dagger/jack etc with the CCW permit......it specifies "Weapons" not just "Firearms" .   

[keith44]

     Unfortunately, a concealed carry permit only entitles you to carry a concealed handgun, nothing else, including knives over 4 inches.
     And, almost every state has an old statute from the 1930s that specifically forbids the carrying of deadly weapons, including "dirks, daggers, sword canes, black jacks, brass knuckles, ice picks, lead pipes, etc."
    So, carrying a knife over 4 inches, or any type of sword cane, would generally be a felony.
   

Ky's permit is a CCDW that is carry concealed deadly weapon and specifically allows any weapon that "...can be reasonably be expected to cause serious injury or death..."  So some states get it right.


As for the NAA revolver, the Long Rifle sized frame and grip are difficult to grasp and operate, but there are grips available on the NAA website that can help that situation.  I bought the magnum framed version for more power and better grip size.  It stays in a pocket holster in my front pocket nearly all the time.  As for shooting one, they hit about 18" low at 15 feet with the sights left as issued.  Alter that front sight and practice with the things and 2-3 inch groups at 25 feet is easily done.


Being a single action revolver contact shooting won't bother it, but it will need cleaning.  As for drawing from a pocket holster it's not any slower than any other concealed carry holster, and actually can be faster than some, since you can calmly and non-threateningly slip your hand into a pocket (that looked empty) and grip the gun and start to loose it from the holster at anytime you get the feeling that the stuff might be headed for the oscillator.


Now these are NOT designed nor intended for anything more that deep cover back ups to primary arms.

[SHOOTALL]

a shot while contacting a body can cause it to not be fireable for a second shot if blow back gets in the action . In the case of the NAA 22 it would not take much clothing , bone etc. to wedge in a cyl and stop rotation . if blood or other fluid covered the gun cocking it and pulling the trigger could be a problem. Most watch hollywood and think most people fly backwards when hit . What most learn in defense classes is most fall forward , thus onto your weapon ( you should be facing them right  ).