Subsonic 300 BLK Ammunition

[wilcoxr1]

I am considering a 300 BLK upper for my AR.  The standard velocity cartridges are obviously suitable for medium game at reasonable ranges.  I am curious about possibly getting a suppressor for it and suppression is most effective with subsonic ammunition.  I notice than all the Subsonic ammunition has a muzzle velocity between 1,000 and 1,100fps and a bullet weight of 220 Grains.  Most bullets listed for hunting purposes at that weight and caliber are heavily constructed for tough animals requiring deep penetration.  I wonder if such low velocity would allow much bullet expansion on a deer.  Heavy projectile weight is a trade off for velocity relative to momentum/impact; but not for kinetic energy.  What bullets do they use to make these cartridges suitable for deer, hogs, etc?   I am wondering if the trade offs are worth it; not to mention the extra costs, taxes and dealing with government requirements.

[454Puma]

  wilcoxr1
You may get some expantion with the subs but I would not count on it.  More likely just a 30 caliber hole.   Some folks are using the subs on deer /pigs  with good results.  I have a 300 Blk but I'm not going to use it for subs and surpresser use all supers for me.

[SHOOTALL]

1050 fps seems to be the magic speed.
Suppressers are more effective depending on your goal. If you want recoil reduction , noise reduction and less felt recoil they work well with standard ammo. In most cases they can make the gun more accurate due to the way gas is handled as the bullet leaves the muzzle and enteres the can. They often help the shooter as the loud flinch causing report is no longer an issue coupled with less felt recoil. So they are quiter with subsonic ammo around 1050 FPS and if the least noise is your only goal then yep! But then you miss out on so much more the can can do for you and your shooting.

[wilcoxr1]

Thanks for the input.  Since posting, a local gunsmith advises that he uses the Sierra MatchKing 220 in his 300BLK.  While they are not made for hunting they have been used with success "as reported on the internet".  The fast twist rate of 1 in 8 stabilizes them well and if a hunting bullet won't expand why not use a super accurate one with a relatively thin jacket. 


Speaking of "as reported on the internet", is anybody else as skeptical as I am about the claims that these 30 caliber AR rounds (BLK, Whisper, etc) are like hunting with a semi-auto 30-30?  I believe thats a pretty loose interpretation even at supersonic velocities but at suppressed velocities, their muzzle energy is more like that of an M1 carbine.  Even so my "wanter" still wants this cool upper for my collection.

[SHOOTALL]

I have been in the process of deciding on a supp. I will go with one for a 308 , I have ordered a 30 carbine chamber adapter with plans to load subsonic ammo in 30 carbine brass and heavy bullets. BTW berger ( I think its them) has a 30 cal 230 gr bullet out now . Don't know it the chamber adapters will be accurate enough though.
Good luck with your , uh um project !

[Curtis]

Well since we're talking "as reported on the internet", I will add I read somewhere that the long heavy bullets lose stability upon entering game and tumble, thus creating a good wound channel similar to an expanding bullet.
 
I have a 14" 300 Whisper barrel for my Contender that is threaded.  One day I may suppress it and use it for vermin (illegal for game here in Texas).
 
Curtis

[Irongoat]

Curtis:  Guess you haven't heard.  Texas Department of Parks and Wildlife just voted to allow suppressors for game in Texas.

http://www.nraila.org/hunting/issues-and-alerts/2012/3/texas-use-of-lawfully-owned-suppressors-while-hunting-legalized-in-the-lone-star-state-%281%29.aspx

Don't count on expansion with subsonic jacketed bullet.  My current approach with suppressed fire is to send a great honking 617 grain bullet with a flat .501 diameter downrange at as close to 1000 fps as I can get.  Just as a point of information, at 1000 fps, the kinetic energy of the bullet is 2.2 times its weight in grains.  A 200 grain bullet at 1000 fps equals 440 ft/lbs. 

Actually, a .30 Carbine at 1900 fps has 880+/- ft/lbs, so at 1000 fps, you need a 400 grain bullet to get the same energy as the little 110 grain pill.  I think the .30 Carbine is a pretty good candidate for suppression as is.  My experience with a can on full power .223 loads leads me to believe I can get it plumb quiet except for the sonic crack.  Guess that needs to be my third next project or should I suppress my Saiga 7.62 x 39 next?

[Curtis]

Curtis:  Guess you haven't heard.  Texas Department of Parks and Wildlife just voted to allow suppressors for game in Texas.

That is good news, although it may encourage me all the more to spend the money on a suppressor.
 
Curtis

[patw]

Wilcoxr,
I have hunted for several years with the 300/221 supersonic and it is a fine 100 yd deer rifle, at least for the Texas hill country deer.  Plenty accurate, and with good shot placement will do the job.  Shot placement is the key though. 
If you want expanding subsonics, try http://outlawstatebullets.com/2.html.
Can't say how they work because I did not have a load worked up in time.  Maybe this year.
As Curtis mentioned, subs lose stability after hitting.  I had noticed when shooting that after the bullet hit the plywood at 100, the dirt would fly at strange places downrange.  A tumbling heavy bullet would make a big wound channel, but would not have the hydroshock of supersonics.   Regarding suppressed hunting, my I have read that it is more like bow hunting.  First of all, while the 300/221 supersonics easily shoot sub moa, I have trouble getting much better than 2 inch groups at 100.  Add to that the rainbow trajectory, and shooting suppressed is a whole new ball game.
My daughter shot a pig with a subsonic 208 gr Hornady last Christmas, we thought she had missed, found no blood, but subsquently found the carcass about 100 yds from the feeder.  A bow shooter told me sometimes pigs don't squeal when shot.  We will try it again this year. 

[patw]

I have been in the process of deciding on a supp. I will go with one for a 308 , I have ordered a 30 carbine chamber adapter with plans to load subsonic ammo in 30 carbine brass and heavy bullets. BTW berger ( I think its them) has a 30 cal 230 gr bullet out now . Don't know it the chamber adapters will be accurate enough though.
Good luck with your , uh um project !

Shootall,  I played with the 308 subsonic suppressed.  Reloading with Trailboss got me subsonic, but the problem was that the slow twist of the 308 had trouble stabilizing heavy bullets.  Best I could stabilize was 180 round nose.  Crazy quiet out of the bolt action though.

[SHOOTALL]

What I have is the new Remington with the 1-10 twist . What were you working with ?  So fat I have shot it with 150 gr , 180 and 162 (I think it was 162  ) . It was most accurate with 159 BT but I have not worked up a load . All shot OK . Can you pass along the TB load or where it can be found ?
Thanks,

[patw]

Shootall, I am out o f town, but I will be home tomorrow and will look up the TB load. I think my bbl was a 1/10 as well.

[patw]

My barrel was a 20" Savage 110 with a 1/10 twist.
 
It seems the 180 grains with 11.0 gr Trail boss started to get unstable at 100, round holes at 50 but started wobbling at 100.  Did not chrono those.
Trail boss 10.0 gr got the 150 Berry plated bullets at around 1140 fps, 9.2 gr got them a1050fps (CCI LR magnum primers) . 
10 gr Trail boss got a 170 gr round nose right around 900 fps but with a large SD.    I know I tried with more powder but can't find the results right now.

I mentioned the Outlaw bullets and I ordered some to try.  The 210 grainers are supposed to be built so they will stabilize in a 1/10 barrel.  I tried some and 11.3 gr Trailboss got 1034 fps without and 1074 with the suppressor.  I was also trying them in the 300/221 but ran out of time before hunting season, and at over a dollar per bullet I find it hard to plink away enough to come up with a good load. 

As usual, there are the results in MY gun, use at your own risk.

[wilcoxr1]

Patw   Thanks for the tip.   I have ordered some of The Outlaw State  practice bullets 220 grain @ $35 per 100 for a trial.  If these don't work for me I probably won't bother with the suppressor until some entrepreneur spends the time and expertise to develop effective hunting bullets for subsonic use.  Several people around here have the Blackout. They are generally using the Sierra MK for subsonic applications.  I guess they rely on the bullet to tumble for "on target effect".  While tumbling probably increases the wound channel as Curtis suggests.  I have also read articles about the tumbling effects. However, I am not sure that using those bullets on deer is in keeping with spirit of the Law in TN.  It states that full metal jacketed bullets are not allowed.  The tiny hollow point on the SMK may make it technically legal, but I am pretty sure that military full metal patch bullets will upset and tumble in game just like it does in an enemy soldier.  However, they are specifically forbidden in TN.  I must assume the FMP are considered inhumane in game animals.  (Aren't expanding bullets considered inhumane for use in war?)    ---   AHA moment: Almost any Bullet will take an enemy soldier out of a battle, but it is easier to survive a full metal patch round in a non vital area and with medical attention, suffering is limited and recovery will be reasonable.  Wounded deer don't get medical attention; their only relief is eventual death and it may take a long time with a great deal of suffering.  So maybe it make some sense after all. 
In spite of my desire to try the suppressed version, I won't allow my grandson to use any non-expanding bullet on deer.   This would include hunting bullets at such low velocity that expansion should not be expected.  I just don't want the drama of a wounded animal to color his hunting experience.  So far at 12 years, he has three deer and a pig to his credit.  All one shot and dead right there.  (+/- 30').  We will forego the subsonic capabilities of the 300 BLK if we can not find a suitable projectile.  There are plenty of supersonic loads that are perfectly acceptable.  The Outlaw State web site
( http://outlawstatebullets.com/2.html.) makes a real convincing pitch for their offerings.  After I get to try these out I will be better able to decide on the suppressor.  This will take a while though; my BLK upper won't be here for another 3-6 weeks. The Brass is here; the Dies should be in today's mail, and the subject bullets are ordered. I have other bullets that may work supersonic My powders on hand[/size] that have listed as suitable include: H110, Lil Gun, Reloader 7, 2400 and Trailboss.  I need to find some AA1680 which has been highly recommended on a Website dedicated to the Blackout.  I guess my "wanter" needs to develop a little patience.[/size]
 

[SHOOTALL]

berger has 230's that might work

[patw]

I had to go to the Outlaw site.  Last time I was there the practice bullets did not exist.   I had been using Hornadys 208Amax, 220 RN and 225 BTHP, but I like the idea of the Outlaw practice bullets.  I am going to give them a try as well.  I thought the outlaw 220s fed in the ar15 but I may not remember right.  I like the idea of those practice bullets, they  are not much more than the other bullets I have been buying and would allow to come up with a load without going broke.  Then could switch to the subsonics for a hunting load.