Excess pressure signs in the Handi

[jackddavis]

I'm about to work up a load in .357 magnum in my Handi. I've done this before, but this time I'll be using the 200 gr. FTX. My previous load was the 140 gr. FTX with 20 gr. of IMR 4227 and a COL of 1.86". This was a slightly compressed load with the bullet seated ~1/4" into the case. This load is considered maximum simply because there is no more room for powder with the bullet seated to that depth. No signs of excess pressure....no flattened or extruded primer or sticky case.
 
I'll be using small rifle primers in my next work-up, same powder (IMR4227) and the Hornady 200 gr. FTX. I'll be watching for excess pressures as noted above, but wondered if there could be other signs that I should watch for. Are there any particular to the Handi? In other words, what signs of excess pressure (short of coming apart in my hands) would I expect to see in a Handi?

[bikerbeans]

jack,
 
beside the normal issues with primers and brass over expansion with a handi, hotter loads will have a tendency to "spring" the lockup a bit.  This can be evidenced by a small gap at the top of the breech face after shooting a round.  I have only had this situation with high pressure bottleneck cartridges, like the 22-250 and 270 Win.  Note: you can also have this gap occur with normal/light loads if you do not have a proper fit or a dirty latch/latch shelf.
 
BB

[Jason F]

Sounds like its time to ream to max,then you can get alot more out of it

[jackddavis]

Thanks BB. I'll watch for that.
 
I've considered reaming to a Maxi, but studying the different loads for the Maxi with 200 gr. bullets and considering the magnum chamber, I'm not convinced the Maxi is that much better. Maybe it is, but that's why I'm testing.
 
Consider the long throat of the magnum SAAMI chamber. With a standard 1.59" COL the bullet jump is ~3/8" +- depending on bullet profile. I can chamber a magnum case with a bullet seated 1/8" for a ~1.96" COL (140 gr. FTX) and still have a bullet jump of .1". Because of the shape of the 200 gr. FTX, I can go even longer without touching the rifling lands. I won't know how long until my order comes in.
 
The published (Hodgdon) maximum load for a 200 gr. bullet in the Maxi is 18 gr. of IMR4227 and I can equal that and more (20 gr) in the magnum case with the bullet seated 1/4" or even less. The only difference in the cartridges is the length of the case and the extra length is all wrapped around the bullet.
 
I'm assuming the reamer does not change the location of the rifling lands, but only lengthens the case area. If that's correct, I can equal or even top the published maximum load for a 200 gr bullet in a magnum case. Of course, to prove it, I'll have to get those 200 gr. FTX bullets and work up the load. I have IMR 4227 on hand, so that's what I'll start with. H110 promises to give higher MV and less pressure, so that's an interesting option, too.
 
These COL's with the 140 gr. FTX are (L-R) 1.96", 1.86" and 1.60".

[quickdtoo]

I've not seen any sticking cases in straight wall extractor Handis, even in the 460 S&W loaded to the gills, they never stuck and there was no typical evidence of severe over pressure up to that point, mildly flattened primers which can be caused by deep rim cuts,  but the primer pockets got loose and there was measureable case head expansion, so beware, once you're there, it may be too late particularly if you're working with an SB1 framed 357, an SB2 frame gives a certain amount of confidence that I wouldn't feel with the cast iron SB1 when working in unknown territory. 

Tim 

[moorepower]

You do realize that 20.0 grains of IMR4227 is max load for a 125 grain bullet. You are WAY over designed psi for the .357 mag. Their is no good place for gas to go on a handi rifle. Wear your safety glasses!

[bikerbeans]

I stuck ONE case in a 45-120!    I will not stick a second one.
 
BB

[mechanic]

You do realize that 20.0 grains of IMR4227 is max load for a 125 grain bullet. You are WAY over designed psi for the .357 mag. Their is no good place for gas to go on a handi rifle. Wear your safety glasses!

And your kevlar.
 
Ben

[quickdtoo]

I stuck ONE case in a 45-120!    I will not stick a second one.
 
BB

I've had some stick on ejector barrels, the 405 Win comes to mind, but never on an extractor barrel, none that were I could tell they were hard to extract anyway. One time on the 405 I left it broke open with the stuck case in the chamber and went behind the bench to get a rod, the spent case popped out by itself just as I got back to the bench! 

Tim

[cwlongshot]

I'm about to work up a load in .357 magnum in my Handi. I've done this before, but this time I'll be using the 200 gr. FTX. My previous load was the 140 gr. FTX with 20 gr. of IMR 4227 and a COL of 1.86". This was a slightly compressed load with the bullet seated ~1/4" into the case. This load is considered maximum simply because there is no more room for powder with the bullet seated to that depth. No signs of excess pressure....no flattened or extruded primer or sticky case.
 
I'll be using small rifle primers in my next work-up, same powder (IMR4227) and the Hornady 200 gr. FTX. I'll be watching for excess pressures as noted above, but wondered if there could be other signs that I should watch for. Are there any particular to the Handi? In other words, what signs of excess pressure (short of coming apart in my hands) would I expect to see in a Handi?

I wince and cringe when I read a post like this...

My advice, step away form the loading bench, your about to be a statictic. If you need to ask this question you have no business in these waters.

I do not mean to insult you, these words could save someones sight, or body parts... At the very least, THINK about what your doing.

CW

[Jason F]

Are you trying to get 357 maximum velocities out of a magnum brass,why would you take the chance?

[quickdtoo]

Maybe a little reality check on the possible consequences of pushing the envelope a bit too far is in order. 

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,237212.msg1099343551.html#msg1099343551

[cudatruck]

could some of you guys post some pictures of excessive pressure signs? such as cratered or flattened primers pressure ring expansion or any others you might have? I am fairly new to handloading and would really like examples of what to watch out for. I stick to published loads only, but still examine spent cases and so far have not seen anything out of the ordinary. Thanks in advance for any help, Mike.

[quickdtoo]

Good load manuals have a section showing primer issues, all handloaders should have at least a couple manuals. 

Tim

[quickdtoo]

Here's a page from the Lyman 48th.

Tim

[quickdtoo]

And a pic of a cratered primer.

Tim

[gendoc]

You do realize that 20.0 grains of IMR4227 is max load for a 125 grain bullet. You are WAY over designed psi for the .357 mag. Their is no good place for gas to go on a handi rifle. Wear your safety glasses!

And your kevlar.
 
Ben

hey ben, i like that'un..............

[gendoc]

Maybe a little reality check on the possible consequences of pushing the envelope a bit too far is in order. 

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,237212.msg1099343551.html#msg1099343551

i heard that tim !!!!

[Dinny]

Jack,
  I highly recommend you talk to steve@357maximum.com. He has chartered into these waters with great success. Albeit, he did take some extra steps to eliminate much of the risk.


Thanks, Dinny

[cwlongshot]

I agree with Tim,

PLEASE take the time to read loading manuels... They have ALLOT of good information. Multiple sources of information are a excellent idea as well.

One more thing you really need to know... PRIMERS are NOT good indicators of high or dangerous pressures... Too many other things can effect how they look besides pressure alone. There are allot of good books published as well. P.O. Ackley is a good source.

CW

[jackddavis]

Wow! Sounds like no one on this forum has ever worked up a load for a wildcat cartridge. I'm not new to reloading. Been doing it for years. I'm just new to the Handi and was wondering if it had any idiosyncrasies that I wasn't aware of. BB told me of one and that is good to know.
 
If you check loads for the Maxi, you'll see that my loads are not any hotter than most shoot in the Maxi chambered Handi's. I work them up gradually, watching for pressure signs. Just like I did for the wildcat cartridge years ago. After all, handloading is all about tailoring your load to suit your particular rifle. I first look for a maximum load then back off looking for accuracy. REst assured, I'm not crazy and I like my fingers and face. I'm not doing anythng that hasn't been done millions of times before by handloaders tailoring ammo for their rifles.
 
Published loads for the .357 magnum are designed for a revolver with a COL to fit revolver cylinder's. AS such the COL is limited to ~1.60". With a heavy bullet seated in a short case to meet that COL, the powder capacity is limited. The Handi has no such limit and a rifle does not need to be seated to a cannelure, especially a single shot. This allows the bullet to be seated much further out allowing much more powder space. And The Handi has a very long forcing tcone/throat to meet SAAMI specifications and that allows longer bullets. At least mine does. I understand some older models do not.
 
I certainly would not recommend anyone take my load information and try it without making a cast of your chamber or otherwise measuring it, then working up the load yourself to make sure it is safe in your rifle. The cardinal rule in handloading. Back off and work up gradually. Experiment, but do it safely as instructed in any reloading manual.
 
Stop and think about how my load in a magnum case is different from the identical load in a Maxi case. All else being equal. Same bullet, same powder charge, same cartridge overall length.

All of the extra brass of the Maxi case is around the bullet. Otherwise, it is identical. The bullet is deep enough in the magnum case to hold the bullet firmly and that is all that is necessary in a SS rifle cartridge. The extra brass in the Maxi case is redundant....at least in the 140 gr. FTX and the 200 gr. FTX. That may not hold true for all bullets, however. A boattail comes to mind.
 
 

[Dinny]

Sounds like you have a good grasp on the situation. Forgive us for our cautionary comments, we have tried to be subtle in the past, but you see from the above link that some folks don't listen very well. Glad you do! I would still suggest you talk to Steve.


Thanks, Dinny

[jackddavis]

Sounds like you have a good grasp on the situation. Forgive us for our cautionary comments, we have tried to be subtle in the past, but you see from the above link that some folks don't listen very well. Glad you do! I would still suggest you talk to Steve.


Thanks, Dinny

I appreciate folks concern, Dinny. I don't know all there is to know and that's why I use these forums.....to seek answers from those that have been there before me and, perhaps, to provide answers to those questions that I do have answers to. Reloading your own ammo is enjoyable, and rewarding. Especially to those that tailor loads for their particular firearm. But as most know, it can be dangerous, if safety rules are not observed. Similar to driving a car....is it not?
 
I've been reloading since ~1965 and the only problems I've had were due to a factory flaw in a new rifle. Case head separations. It went back to the factory for a new barrel. I gave up reloading for a time. Health and lack of a hunting partner made me give up hunting some years ago. But recently moved into the country where I could shoot for recreation and I set up a pistol range in my shop. A S&W .38 and a Ruger .357 and a place to shoot them got me back into the reloading hobby. The purchase of the Handi in .357 got me here. The .357 SAAMI chamber in a single shot rifle opens up a whole new range of possibilities for the reloader. And I'm excited to explore those possibilities.
 
 

[moorepower]

A .357 max has an additional .315 case length for additional powder. It is also supposed to be much stronger that the .357 mag brass. The larger hole for the firing pin also does not bode well for extreme psi wildcat rounds. The larger hole makes more room for primer flow, making pierced primers occur at a lower psi than a bolt action that has a bushed pin for the higher psi rounds. The dirty little secret about alot of these high psi wildcat rounds is that they are running 75-85 kpsi. Agin with no good place for gas to go on a handi, it really is not worth the risk, since max brass and dies are common and alot cheaper than a glass eye.

[broom_jm]

Look at it like this...

If a friend of yours wanted to hotrod 38 Special loads, you'd tell him to get a 357 Magnum, right?

We're trying to be friendly and suggest that if you want 357 Maximum performance, hotrodding a 357 Magnum case is not the right way to get there.  Discretion being the better part of valor, n' all. 

[jackddavis]

I'm not trying to convince anyone to do what I'm doing. If you're not comfortable with your reloading knowledge and skills, don't do it. I am comfortable doing it and I will. Reloaders have been tailoring their loads for their specific firearms for centurys....since the invention of gunpowder. I've been reloading and tailoring my ammo for 45 years and will keep doing it until I stop shooting. I still have all of my fingers and eyes. And there are no bullet holes either.
 
I just fired five rounds of 140 gr. FTX over 20 gr. IMR4227 compressed load with a COL of 1.86". Mixed brass all trimmed to 1.283" using CCI500 primers. Estimated MV of 2050 fps. All five rounds extracted....actually fell out of the chamber and the cases show no signs of excess pressure. The gun is still in one piece and no missing fingers or eyes. The proof is in the firing.
 
 

[gcrank1]

I believe it was in 'The Modern Schuetzen Rifle' by Schwartz and Dell that I read about the sectioning of 357Mag and Max brass to measure and see differences. Other than the length, they found none, but maybe things have change in these recent years.
FWIW, IME, and, as always, you are on your own: I havent found primer flattening to be a reliable indicator of breech pressures either. Case expansion at the junction of web and wall is much better (and if a reader doesnt know what that means, he is probably in over his head), though a generously cut chamber can really mess that up too.
One thing for sure, with a compressed load you dont have a load density issue.
Why not spend a few bucks on some 360DW or even 357Max brass and custom trim it to your chamber (fully fitting a chamber is always a good thing). Dollar to donuts you are keeping that 357Mag brass segregated anyway. Youve really already found out what you can do with the Mag length brass.

[jackddavis]

Just for comparisons, I took the five cases I just fired and compared them to other fired cases that I had loaded to ~700 fps with Trailboss. There is a slight difference in the primers. I then compared them to standard magnum cases fired in my SP101. No difference at all in the primer appearance. Then I measured the head just below the rim and compared that measurement to the mouse loads and that measurement was actually less by about .003", in the 20 gr. 4227 load. Absolutely no expansion beyond the mouse load........none. The case length is still what I trimmed it to. No cracks or imperfections of any kind. Nothing about the cases lead me to think there is a pressure issue in this load.
 
I'll not be using the 140 gr. FTX beyond this box. It was a gift. The BC is only .16 and that is not as good as the 140 gr. XTP at .169. Ballistics are worse than the XTP, so there isn't any advantage to the 140 gr. FTX that I can see. But the BC of the 200 gr. FTX is .300. Far superior. I've ordered a box and in ~two weeks, I'll see how it goes.

[gcrank1]

The casehead is solid, except for the flash channel just below (or above, if you prefer) the rim. If you have sectioned a case you know what I mean. That isnt where the powder sits, burns, and creates pressure.

[moorepower]

Is it solid at 40kpsi as designed or 60kpsi ? I am tempted to buy quickload just to get their estimate. I know enough about reloading to NEVER load a round that hot.