Excess pressure signs in the Handi

[jackddavis]

Since I'm not sure everyone knows exactly what I'm doing here, I've made a drawing (to scale) of both cases and a seated generic bullet. Notice that both are identical in every way except the Maxi has a longer case and that extra length is all wrapped around the bullet. Assuming all else is equal, they should both have the same pressure and MV.
 
All of the published loads that I have found are limited in COL for either lever guns or revolvers. In a SS rifle, the COL limit is the rifling lands and in the .357 mag. Handi, they are such that COL can be similar to or maybe even equal to the Maxi cartridge. Then the COL limiting facter is the bullet length itself. It does have to seat far enough into the mag. case to hold.
 
In my opinion, if the Maxi is safe to fire in a Handi, then the similarly loaded mag case is also. And my tests with the 140 gr. FTX confirms that (IMO).

[ibgp3]

In answer to your original question: Handi specific pressure signs.


....I have noticed working up the pressure ladder that the rough machine marks on the receiver get imprinted on the brass cartridge case a stage or two before the primers start to flatten out.

[jackddavis]

In answer to your original question: Handi specific pressure signs.


....I have noticed working up the pressure ladder that the rough machine marks on the receiver get imprinted on the brass cartridge case a stage or two before the primers start to flatten out.

Thanks. No marks showing.

[bajabill]

I did not take any before measurements, but I believe I can load a longer OAL in my max than as the original mag.  I seat the 180 XTP at the lower crimp groove and the 200 sp I had are really long.  I think anything you can do with a mag, you can do better?? with a max

[gcrank1]

A metallurgist could give us an idea, depending upon (how many) variables in the actual batch lot of cartridge brass, of when it (if this is the correct term) becomes 'plastic' and flows or whatever.
I think that might be more than is needed here.
To me, the important aspect is that when the case wall expansion (again, just at or above the web, NOT the rim) equals that of a factory hot load. If the case exhibits sticky extraction, or other high/excessive pressure signs, that my load is too hot for whatever platform it is fired in.
If that expansion is 'all the way down' the head, to just above the rim, it is WAY too hot! Just think how much pressure it takes to expand the solid head case way down there......
A generously cut chamber (very common in 'field/sporting chambers) will allow much more expansion than a match chamber, and may, even with an excessive load, give a false sense of security because the fired case 'falls' out when opened. Measurement of the fired case against SAAMI specs will give you an idea of the cut of the chamber, short measurements of a chamber cast. Hard/difficult resizing also can be an indicator, but a 'tight' resize die can also do it (measure a resized case against SAAMI).

Going off the res is chancy, but has been done, and will continue to be done. Just watch your topknot!

[jackddavis]

I think anything you can do with a mag, you can do better?? with a max

Perhaps, but it really depends on the depth of the rifling lands. If the Maxi reamer changes the depth of those lands, then the bullet in the Maxi can be seated out further. But if it doesn't change the depth of the lands and they stay where the SAAMI .357 chamber put them, then that limits the COL and the powder caacity. With the 140 gr. FTX seated ~1/8" I can get a COL of 1.96" and still it is ~.1" off the lands in my rifle. The 200 gr. FTX has a gently sloped ogive, so I should be able to get closer to 2.10" COL without touching the lands...assuming the actual bullet is long enough seat firmly in the magnum case. Until I get my hands on those 200 gr. FTX's, I won't know for sure how it will all fit together.
 
Seating the bullet as close as possible to the lands without touching them is usually best for accuracy. If I can do that in a mag. case and come close or equal Maxi loads, then I see no reason to go to a Maxi chamber. All of my brass will then work in my handgun and my rifle. No reason to buy new, expensive brass, minimal changes to my loading dies...everything becomes simpler....and I like simple.
 
gcrank1, It seems that my chamber is a tight chamber, based on the fact the fired cases in this "hot" load expand to .377 (min) .381" (max) and cases fired in my SP101 with "mouse" (3.2 gr. TB & 148 gr. HBWC) loads expand to .383" (just below the rim). Both cases are resized in the same die before loading.
 
A cartridge case does, essentially, two jobs. The first job is to hold all the cartridge components together in their proper positions. And the second is to expand and seal aganist the chamber wall to seal out gases and prevent blow-back. Loading and reloading will work harden the brass to a point until it fails, usually by cracking around the mouth. One test I might try is to load and fire one case as many times as I can with this "hot" load, until it fails in some manner. If I can get maybe eight to ten reloads before they fail, I would call that good. If they fail after only a couple of shots, then I should probably back off some.

[gcrank1]

This has been said before, but not on this thread, and it needs to be said:
What you are doing may be working for you. What happens when you fall over dead from 'whatever' and somebody else gets all your reloads, sticks these hot rifle only loads in a 357 Mag revolver, and blows it up?
What about somebody who doesnt have all your years of experience and expertise reads this, thinks they can ignore, or extrapolate from reload manual data, and blows a gun up?
I expect that if you can, and are willing to afford to throw cases away after '8 or 10 reloads' that you can afford to rent the Maxi reamer here and buy some Maxi cases. You dont need new dies, the 357 Mag dies are fine.
The reamer will improve the throating (you know, after all these years of messing around with guns, it IS the throat you really want improved). And after most everybody else has said their rifles are better for it, why not 'go the whole hog' and just do it, you will , most likely, be glad you did.

[av-doctor]

whoa,   go easy on him,he believes that because it worked before it will work again.
  might  might not who knows?
    seated out that far I'm pretty sure hes safe from it fitting in a revolver (unless its one of the old 357max revolvers)
  that said I'm not seeing the benefit,  doesn't the brass hold the bullet while the burning powder behind it builds pressure till it can no longer hold the bullet in place? how does that affect it when it takes less pressure to get the bullet out of the case?

[broom_jm]

Is your H&R 357 an SB1 or SB2 frame?

You DO realize that if you rechamber to 357 Max and the throat is too short, cleaning it up/extending it is a pretty simple job, right? 

I can swing a hatchet really hard and fast, but when it's time to split wood, I reach for the maul.  What you're doing is not unsafe, per se, but it's like you're trying to prove you can tow a 20' boat with a Civic.  If you do it...so what?  Pick the right tool for the job in the first place and you won't be treading on thin ice.

Bottom line:  Anything you "accomplish" with 357 Mag cases and bullets seated really long can be topped with a 357 MAX case...and bullets seated just as long.  The only difference would be possibly reaming the throat out a little more.  Some horses will only go so fast, no matter how hard you whip 'em.

[bajabill]

I agree that you can improve upon the 357mag with a handi barrel due to the long throat.  But, the reamer I used cut into the rifling.  I can not reach the lands with a 180xtp barely held by a 357mag.  I can load to 2.32" oal with a rem 200sp and the max case.
 
 

[jackddavis]

sticks these hot rifle only loads in a 357 Mag revolver, and blows it up?

   A 1-7/8"-2" long cartridge in a .357 magnum revolver?        A .357 Maximum revolver. No problem. These are Maxi loads, after all. Revolver chambers are far, far different. A strange comment from someone who knows what a "web" is. 
 
It seems that some think that by removing a ring of steel ~.011" x ~3/8" and replacing it with a ring of brass that, somehow a rifle will be stronger for it. Or that loading 20 gr. of powder in a longer case is going to make it less powerful than 20 gr in a shorter case with the same bullet and COL. That doesn't compute!!!
 
All I'm doing is moving the bullet out closer to the lands. This gives room for more powder and , in some cases, gives enough room for Maxi loads. Closer to the lands usually means better accuracy. The best hand loads are those that fill the available room in the case. I'm working up those loads using tried and proven methods. If it's safe to fire Maxi loads in any particular rifle, it is safe to fire my loads in that rifle. If it fits, it shoots. Assuming that rifle is a modern rifle in good condition. If someone takes my recipe at face value and uses it in without working up the load for their rifle, then they are breaking all rules on reloading.
 
Yes, I can improve further by reaming to Maxi and I haven't ruled that out completely. I'm weighing the pro's and con's of reaming. If I can load to Maxi velocities with the bullet I want, in the mag. case, then there is no need to ream. And I suspect I can. I'll know soon. My order will be in Friday.
 
I didn't ask for advice on how to do this, or whether it was possible. I KNOW HOW! I've been working up loads for my rifles for 45 years. And I'm not asking anyone to do what I'm doing. I'm sorry if some of you don't understand. I'm completely comfortable with the experiments I'm doing and I also know I'm not the first. I've been in contact with others, including one mentioned in this forum. In fact some even say the end results of not reaming are better than reaming simply because you can get the bullet much closer to the lands than in a reamed chamber that also reamed the riflings, and that improves accuracy.
 
My thanks to those that gave me good advice and answered my original question.
 
Again, I say......IF YOU ARE NOT COMFORTABLE WITH YOUR RELOADING KNOWLEDGE AND SKILLS....DON'T DO IT!

[jackddavis]

I agree that you can improve upon the 357mag with a handi barrel due to the long throat.  But, the reamer I used cut into the rifling.  I can not reach the lands with a 180xtp barely held by a 357mag.  I can load to 2.32" oal with a rem 200sp and the max case.

I'll have my 200 gr. FTX bullets Friday. Then I'll see how they fit. First I'll test the bullet seated so that it just touches the lands -.01" to get a maximum COL. Then I'll have a better idea whether I can get what I want.

[gcrank1]

OK jackddavis, now youve gone from going off the book data to takin' shots at me, just because I advocate safe reloading practice.......strange thing from somebody 'who knows so much from all his years of experience'........you aint makin' any points with me anymore; but then I doubt that bothers a guy like you very much.

[jackddavis]

OK jackddavis, now youve gone from going off the book data to takin' shots at me, just because I advocate safe reloading practice.......strange thing from somebody 'who knows so much from all his years of experience'........you aint makin' any points with me anymore; but then I doubt that bothers a guy like you very much.

That was a "tongue in cheek" comment. Sorry if it offended you. Actually, I've felt that you have been taking shots at me all along. And your previous post implied that I was either crazy or thoughtless. I'll forgive you, hope you do the same.

[tc scout]

After following this thread for awhile, frankly I don't see the point.
When someone decided to improve the 357 Mag, they designed the 357 Maximum.
 

[jackddavis]

Earlier in this thread it was recommended (twice) that I contact steve@357maximum.com. I did this and here is his reply.
 

 
Hi Jack,

First let me say, I agree with all of your assumptions on loading the .357
Magnum cartridge to .357 Maximum levels. As long as your .357 magnum
chamber has the long throat, it gives more flexibility with the shorter
magnum case.

I have experimented with the .357 Mag. with .357 Max. like loadings, but
have not published it, since I have not had any of the loads pressure
tested and I have no control how others use the data.

You seem to have a good understanding of this subject, so I will share my
information with you. Please do not publish this information as I am very
concerned with liability.

(LOAD INFORMATION IS OMITTED per Steve's request.)
 
Hopefully, this information helps,

Steve Cutter

[gcrank1]

I accept that, so, gentleman to gentleman I too am sorry if you felt I was taking shots at you. I assure you was not, and regret that the way I said things offended you.
I am very cognizant that there are people who read this, or may read in the future who dont have the experience to know the fine points of the discussion. I sincerely do not want anyone hurt because of a misinterpretation of the nuances we can get into.
So, lets you and me start over; consider this a handshake from me and a look square in the eye, I apologize.

[jackddavis]

Fair enough. The problem with email and forums is that people can't see your expressions and words alone sometimes aren't enough to be clear as to intent. Slate is clear.

[Dinny]

Jack,
  Hopefully Steve's info helped you out. I know he was doing the same thing last year and had satisfactory results. IIRC, he also had his Mag chamber throated to better support the bullet and give a slightly longer COAL.


Thanks, Dinny

[jackddavis]

Jack,
  Hopefully Steve's info helped you out. I know he was doing the same thing last year and had satisfactory results. IIRC, he also had his Mag chamber throated to better support the bullet and give a slightly longer COAL.


Thanks, Dinny

Yes. Thanks, Dinny. I had read his website prior to beginning my experiments, but did not know he had experimented with the mag. case. He confirmed that I was on the right path. I have also written to others with the same result. I'm not sure why it is so hard to understand my thinking. My posts must not be clear. It seems that those who know what I'm doing, have been there before me and understand. Some others don't understand and that's probably my fault for not being clear.
 
 
 

[cwlongshot]

Jack,
  Hopefully Steve's info helped you out. I know he was doing the same thing last year and had satisfactory results. IIRC, he also had his Mag chamber throated to better support the bullet and give a slightly longer COAL.


Thanks, Dinny

Yes. Thanks, Dinny. I had read his website prior to beginning my experiments, but did not know he had experimented with the mag. case. He confirmed that I was on the right path. I have also written to others with the same result. I'm not sure why it is so hard to understand my thinking. My posts must not be clear. It seems that those who know what I'm doing, have been there before me and understand. Some others don't understand and that's probably my fault for not being clear.

Jack,
 One other variable or mind set you seem to be missing... There are still others of us who know what your doing. Understand what your trying to figure out/acheive. Maybe even been there and done that... But KNOW its treading in uncharted waters and feel it has NO PLACE on a public forum where inexperienced and unknowing, fledgling loaders can miss understand. If you go back and read Steve's email, even he told you that he would not want such information to get into the hands of someone inexperienced. If you value that opinion, it should tell you something...

Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should. Then to post it on a public forum is still another...

Measuring these pressures, you could be operating at are the big difference. Piezo or copper pressure equiptment are things that accurately measure whats safe and whats not. I'll go out on a limb and say none of us has even access to this stuff. Primers as stated are a poor indicator. Also as has been mentioned measuring the case just above the web is about the most accurate we as hobby loaders can use. But even this is subject to limitations as chambers altho should be standard are NOT. which is the core of what and how you CAN even do what your doing... IF your chamber was cut correctly, you would never be able to seat bullets out so long. You are looking at and only "seeing"a tiny bit of whats actually going on and its this unseen that can "get ya"... One simple pressure spike will do your firearm in, hopefully you and no one around you will be hurt.

I am very cognizant that there are people who read this, or may read in the future who don't have the experience to know the fine points of the discussion. I sincerely do not want anyone hurt because of a misinterpretation of the nuances we can get into.

I completely agree and have said it simularly many times...

There are quite a few guys here who have been loading there own for a long time. Still others who have at least the experience you do. Yet rarely will you ever see one of them with such a post as this. Im my head I hear.. "Hey y'all watch this"... BOOM.... I hope it doesn't happen to you or to ANYONE reading this post.

CW

[tc scout]

CW, My thoughts exactly. One thing that I ponder is, if he is all knowing at which he is trying to accomplish, why does he come to this forum and ask for information on pressure signs? Just wondering 
tc

[av-doctor]

Easy fellas,   no need to cut his danglers off!
  i commend him for coming to this forum in an attempt gain knowledge about an unfamiliar platform.
    That proves to me he knows he doesn't know-it-all! I'm sure he confident with his own abilities and as such is willing to deal with any problems that may occur from stepping this far out of the box, he in no way is asking anyone to attempt this.
   Remember if somebody didn't try anything except what is considered inside-the-box we would still live in caves and hunt with sticks and stones!
   This is not an endorsement for what he wants to do, for i feel its a fools errand but i recognized his right to do as he feels.
  That said, he asked for specific signs of excess pressure in the handi platform. which i do feel would help alot of aspiring loaders   things like pierced primers,sticky extraction,etc.

[gcrank1]

I might add that, as a confirmed cast bullet shooter, I would be doing this with lead bullets, too, but my loads would likely be much less than capacity for most powders due to the velocity limitations of lead. The methodology of bullet position for a given chamber is sound, though the longish brass cut may induce gas cutting on lead that you wouldnt get with jacketed, and may be too detrimental to accuracy. I just can afford to shoot jacketed that much! (and lead bullets seem to do the job I ask of them). I guess I am steeped too deeply in the 'slow moving brick' method and rarely get to top book loads for anything.
If I had a Maxi I would probably end up loading 100% of Trail Boss and my cast bullet(s) of choice and be very happy, as it is I will just have to be content with my 38-55s.

[jackddavis]

Everyone on this forum has an opinion, and that's great. If we all had the same opinion on any given subject, it would be a dull world, indeed.
 
I have done, and continue to do my homework on this subject. I'm not the first and I've been in contact with at least three others that have been there before me. I've also posted my work on two other forums and I must say the reaction on those forums have been far different than the reaction I've seen on this one. But that's OK, too. Some folks have real concerns and that just points me to other areas to research or watch for. All posts have some merit and I try to take those with logical suggestions to heart.
 
Everyone that loads to published maximum is told to start lower and work up to that maximum, while watching for signs of excess pressure. That's all I'm doing. And since there are no published loads for .357 mag with the bullet seated out closer to the riflings, I'm needing to work up my own loads, just as you would do with a wildcat cartridge. All (or most) published loads are made to fit the cylinders of revolvers. The Handi with the SAAMI chamber is not limited to the COL of a revolver. I'm just using tried and proven techniques to get the most of  out of my rifle.
 
If Ackley didn't blow out the shoulder/neck area of several rifle calibers to get more powder room, we wouldn't have the "Ackley Improved" today.
 

[jackddavis]

Perhaps to ease the minds of those who think I am endangering unknowing persons that might take my posts and without following proper procedures...blow their fingers off. My tests have all indicated this load is "safe in my firearm".
 
Now, I have run the data in a software program here using all the correct input data. Also note that the SAAMI CUP pressure maximum for the .357 mag. is 45,000 CUP and for the .357 Maxi is 48,000 CUP. http://kwk.us/pressures.html
 
Now note that the computer puts the only load I have posted here at 43,400 CUP.
 
WELL BELOW BOTH MAXIMUM SAAMI PRESSURES.
 
As far as this being "uncharted" territory. Not true. Handloaders routinely move their bullets out further to get close (but not touching) to the riflings. This decreases pressure. Then they add powder to bring the pressures back up, usually as close as possible to maximum, then back down looking for that "sweet spot" that gives the best accuracy.
 
All I was looking for, by posting in this forum is the possible idiocyncracies in the Handi Rifle as far as pressure signs are concerned. Signs that might be different than, say, a bolt action. This IS the Handi Rifle forum, is it not. What better place to ask such a question. I only posted why I was asking, because I thought others might be interested...had already done this and might have some suggestions.
 
I have to wonder who was the first to ream a SB1 framed .357 mag to .357 Maxi and determined it was safe to do so. I doubt that H&R condones it. It seems most on this forum believe it is OK to ream and shoot heavier .357 Maxi loads that go up to 48,000 CUP, in a rifle designed for loads maxed at 45,000 CUP, but get hysterical when I work up a load for the magnum case. Strange.

[gcrank1]

Jack, I really dont see any 'hysterics' in these posts, but do understand where you are coming from. Please remember that the moderators of this forum, unlike many others, do permit us to post loads and get into these conversations. Other forum moderators have decided it isnt worth it, for one reason or another, and this would not have gone far on them. One reason we are allowed to go this distance is (I think) that we ground the conversation with 'lets be doin' this safe', and give ample room for all to say their piece with due respect. I see that you are relatively new to this forum, and we have a great bunch of people here. Most all are welcome at my fire anytime, you included. We would make one heck of a BBQ, talkin' guns and loads and just bein 'guys'.
There is quite a wealth of past posts regarding the Handi platform and the pressures, etc.; I hope you are working your way through the 'archives' bit by bit, or utilizing the 'search' function (no sense in re-inventing the wheel, so to speak).
BTW, if I remember correctly, the factory did offer the 357Max at one time, thus the precedent for so many of the rechambers.

[quickdtoo]

I have to wonder who was the first to ream a SB1 framed .357 mag to .357 Maxi and determined it was safe to do so.

First of all, the SAAMI MAP for the 357 Mag is 35kpsi, and the Maxi is 40kpsi....

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/saami_pressures.htm

http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/205.pdf

Now that we're on the same page using modern pressure ratings instead of apples and oranges CUP and PSI, the formula for calculating bolt thrust (breech thrust for a Handi) can be found here....

http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/custom_actions/bolt_lug_strength.htm

Bolt Thrust

Bolt thrust is easy to calculate. Only two inputs are required. They are peak chamber pressure in PSI and as mentioned, the inside area of the case head that the gas pressure can work on. The formula then is:

THRUST=AREA*CPSI Where:

AREA=3.1416*(HS/2)^2

HS=the diameter of the inside of the case head.

http://stevespages.com/page8d.htm
 
If you run the calculations for the 44mag(36kpsi SAAMI MAP) which is factory available on the same SB1 frame, you'll see that the 357 Maxi provides less breech thrust, you can use the outside diameter of the case head to get a ball park figure rather than cutting a case up to get a real measurement. 

Tim

[jackddavis]

I have to wonder who was the first to ream a SB1 framed .357 mag to .357 Maxi and determined it was safe to do so.

First of all, the SAAMI MAP for the 357 Mag is 35kpsi, and the Maxi is 40kpsi....

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/saami_pressures.htm

http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/205.pdf

Now that we're on the same page using modern pressure ratings instead of apples and oranges CUP and PSI, the formula for calculating bolt thrust (breech thrust for a Handi) can be found here....

http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/custom_actions/bolt_lug_strength.htm

Bolt Thrust

Bolt thrust is easy to calculate. Only two inputs are required. They are peak chamber pressure in PSI and as mentioned, the inside area of the case head that the gas pressure can work on. The formula then is:

THRUST=AREA*CPSI Where:

AREA=3.1416*(HS/2)^2

HS=the diameter of the inside of the case head.

http://stevespages.com/page8d.htm
 
If you run the calculations for the 44mag(36kpsi SAAMI MAP) which is factory available on the same SB1 frame, you'll see that the 357 Maxi provides less breech thrust, you can use the outside diameter of the case head to get a ball park figure rather than cutting a case up to get a real measurement. 

Tim

I'm talking CUP pressures and you're referring to PSI. They are not one and the same. The CUP SAAMI pressures are 45, 000 CUP for the .357 mag and 48,000 for the Maxi according to the links I attached. Also the computer instruction says to use the CUP column with the computer readout.

[quickdtoo]

You asked how it was determined that the 357 Maxi was safe on an SB1 frame and I showed you exactly how it was determined using the factory standard for the 44 mag which is safe on an SB1 frame since they offer it! The formula for determining breech thrust is valid, I've confirmed it specifically for the 357 Maxi with Johan Loubser, the Accurate Arms/Ramshot ballistician. See the SAAMI publication I posted, the pressure standard for the 357s have been in piezo PSI since 1993, you're using old info.

Tim