Author Topic: IMA ordnance items  (Read 4097 times)

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Offline Cannoneer

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IMA ordnance items
« on: March 29, 2012, 06:57:16 PM »
I check out the IMA site every so often, just to see if they have any new goodies on display. I see that there are now a few more interesting items from their 2003 Nepalese Armory buy being offered for sale.
I've seen bronze ML cannon that have been converted to breech loaders before, but I don't recall ever seeing one that was left a smooth bore.
There's also an interesting "potbellied"mortar which looks like it might have a spherical chamber.
Cannonmn might be interested in the gun lock marked with a crown and George Rex.

http://www.ima-usa.com/militaria/ordnance/cannons.html



RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline Double D

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Re: IMA ordnance items
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2012, 07:11:22 PM »
I would be very surprised if  Cannonmn has not toured the entire cannon inventory at  IMA  in Gillette and Easton as well as the  Atlanta Cutlery inventory....I know I saw a lot of cannons and mortars in Gillette and the two ware houses we were allowed access to in Easton.

Offline KABAR2

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Re: IMA ordnance items
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2012, 03:46:38 AM »
I would be very surprised if  Cannonmn has not toured the entire cannon inventory at  IMA  in Gillette and Easton as well as the  Atlanta Cutlery inventory....I know I saw a lot of cannons and mortars in Gillette and the two ware houses we were allowed access to in Easton.
He's been there ... infact he supplied a couple of photo's from the warehouse some years back...... as always IMA plays fast and loose with history.... the breech loader is not British it is from Napal, it started life as a Danish muzzel loader captured by the British and sent off to Napal.... in later years in an effort to modernize they sent students to Japan to study arms making when they came back they converted several of these to breech loaders I know someone who has one complete with napalese coat of arms on the breech.......
An item I spotted and discussed with Cannonmn was the cannon lock with the "GR" on the side I didn't like the looks of it and he is in agreement that it is probably made up..... he has never seen a cannon lock so marked ... they usually have contractor's names on them but not a "GR"...... a buyer beware situation......
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline cannonmn

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Re: IMA ordnance items
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2012, 03:47:51 AM »
Thanks.  Allen sent me the link to the cannon lock advertisement which I immediately wrote up in the CMH Forum under the title "Caveat Emptor."  Thanks again, Allen, for detecting the issue and letting me know. 
 
What appear to be Nepalese bronze mortars have been turning up here and there with suspicious "French" and "English" military cannon markings so again I caution "Caveat Emptor."   I did get a quick tour but without camera, back when they first arrived in the U.S.  A friend with more time and patience took good photos which have since enabled us to positively identify one "pre-English-marked" mortar which showed up later with fairly good but not convincing English markings.  Let me say here that I have no idea who is faking the English and French marks on those mortars, but the responsibility for the grossly over-marked flint cannon locks would be easier to establish since the markings were obviously created at a point prior to retail sales.

Offline Double D

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Re: IMA ordnance items
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2012, 04:12:19 AM »
John,

Are you saying the markings on the Cannons and cannon locks IMA is selling are fake?

Are you saying this lock is counterfeit? http://www.ima-usa.com/militaria/ordnance/cannons/original-british-naval-cannon-flintlock-ignition-system-circa-1790.html


Offline Cannoneer

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Re: IMA ordnance items
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2012, 04:33:09 AM »
Let me say here that I have no idea who is faking the English and French marks on those mortars, but the responsibility for the grossly over-marked flint cannon locks would be easier to establish since the markings were obviously created at a point prior to retail sales.

Some time back when that lock was first discussed here, didn't you say that you'd never seen another marked in that fashion (with a large crown and GR beneath)?


I like that mortar. Does anyone think this photo shows a spherical powder chamber?

RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline cannonmn

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Re: IMA ordnance items
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2012, 04:50:23 AM »
Quote
John,

Are you saying the markings on the Cannons and cannon locks IMA is selling are fake?

Are you saying this lock is counterfeit? http://www.ima-usa.com/militaria/ordnance/cannons/original-british-naval-cannon-flintlock-ignition-system-circa-1790.html

I'd refer you back to reply no. 3, it is worded the way it is intentionally and should convey what I intended to convey adequately to most people.  Bottom line with online shopping is to keep in mind "Caveat Emptor."
 
Since someone just asked, I will say or repeat if I said it before, that I've never seen an original  cannon flintlock marked with the markings shown at the link provided above.

Offline steelcharge

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Re: IMA ordnance items
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2012, 06:04:48 AM »
the breech loader is not British it is from Napal, it started life as a Danish muzzel loader captured by the British and sent off to Napal.... in later years in an effort to modernize they sent students to Japan to study arms making when they came back they converted several of these to breech loaders I know someone who has one complete with napalese coat of arms on the breech.......

These breechloaders have interested me alot since I got the book "Treasure..." from IMA sometime ago. I thought  the story of canister firing guns was true as the British did have such weapons. But this makes me think again.. So the Nepalese studied gun-making in Japan and came to a decision to convert muzzleloaders to breechloaders, but what kind of projectile were they going to use as they left the guns smoothbore? Also what kind of carriage these would have been on? One similar breechloader IMA had for sale was on a wooden split-trail field carriage, but I'm not sure if thats the correct carriage.

Offline Double D

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Re: IMA ordnance items
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2012, 06:48:23 AM »
John,

That is a pretty serious implication you are making.  Have you attempted to verify you observations, say via Royal Armories at Leeds or Fort  Nelson?   

Offline KABAR2

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Re: IMA ordnance items
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2012, 06:54:54 AM »
While they are not rifled the bronze breech loader could still fire solid shot but most likely were used with canister as to carraige it could have been either a wood split trail or  copy of a British iron field carraige..... I have seen two examples of Napalese steel tubed guns on iron carriages with 70mm bores and use the Japanes 70mm short case..... these are in the process of restoration....
The Bronze cannon is being places on a Krupp steel carriage..... chances of finding the original Krupp tube are slim to none so it was a good canidate for this..... again it is in the process of restoration...... I don't own them so sorry no photos at this time....
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline KABAR2

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Re: IMA ordnance items
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2012, 07:03:34 AM »
John,

That is a pretty serious implication you are making.  Have you attempted to verify you observations, say via Royal Armories at Leeds or Fort  Nelson?
While John will speak for himself I can say that in the past 30+ or so years I have seen 4 or 5 of these locks none of them had the "GR" engraved on them.... also in a recent auction there was a French style cannon lock that had a U.S. contractor name on it...... John and I had disscused that one also neither one of us believed it was correct..... unfortunalty there are items being enhanced to gain high profit...... IMA had originally advertised the studed artillery shells as "Civil War" to gain a higher profit..... were they from that period? yes.... were they used in our Civil War? NO.
.
A key identifier on muzzel loading cannon from Napal is the odd circular touch hole...... they cast cannon along European lines but the touch hole is not a European feature on British and French guns.......
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: IMA ordnance items
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2012, 08:22:28 AM »
He's been there ... infact he supplied a couple of photo's from the warehouse some years back...... as always IMA plays fast and loose with history.... the breech loader is not British it is from Napal, it started life as a Danish muzzel loader captured by the British and sent off to Napal.... in later years in an effort to modernize they sent students to Japan to study arms making when they came back they converted several of these to breech loaders I know someone who has one complete with napalese coat of arms on the breech.......

Kabar,
I don't think that there's any question that this barrel was obtained from Nepal, but what is the source of the other information you've supplied (in bold print)? For some reason it seems oddly familiar to me.

 
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline steelcharge

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Re: IMA ordnance items
« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2012, 08:48:52 AM »
While they are not rifled the bronze breech loader could still fire solid shot but most likely were used with canister as to carraige it could have been either a wood split trail or  copy of a British iron field carraige..... I have seen two examples of Napalese steel tubed guns on iron carriages with 70mm bores and use the Japanes 70mm short case..... these are in the process of restoration....
The Bronze cannon is being places on a Krupp steel carriage..... chances of finding the original Krupp tube are slim to none so it was a good canidate for this..... again it is in the process of restoration...... I don't own them so sorry no photos at this time....

Yeah canister would be my no.1 guess but would be interesting to see what kind of solid shot they might've used and what the cartridges were like. Also the steel ones sound interesting, I suppose they are rifled? And by 70mm japanese case, do you mean the WW2 era small "battalion gun" cases or some older piece?

Offline KABAR2

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Re: IMA ordnance items
« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2012, 09:10:49 AM »
He's been there ... infact he supplied a couple of photo's from the warehouse some years back...... as always IMA plays fast and loose with history.... the breech loader is not British it is from Napal, it started life as a Danish muzzel loader captured by the British and sent off to Napal.... in later years in an effort to modernize they sent students to Japan to study arms making when they came back they converted several of these to breech loaders I know someone who has one complete with napalese coat of arms on the breech.......

Kabar,
I don't think that there's any question that this barrel was obtained from Nepal, but what is the source of the other information you've supplied (in bold print)? For some reason it seems oddly familiar to me.

 
Information supplied by owner of said bronze gun.... inspection of said bronze gun shows Napalese crest on the gun if the one they are selling as British and has been sanitized by removal of crest it is a direct clouding of origin
it may sound farmiliar because these guns were discussed sometime ago.....
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline KABAR2

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Re: IMA ordnance items
« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2012, 09:13:51 AM »
While they are not rifled the bronze breech loader could still fire solid shot but most likely were used with canister as to carraige it could have been either a wood split trail or  copy of a British iron field carraige..... I have seen two examples of Napalese steel tubed guns on iron carriages with 70mm bores and use the Japanes 70mm short case..... these are in the process of restoration....
The Bronze cannon is being places on a Krupp steel carriage..... chances of finding the original Krupp tube are slim to none so it was a good canidate for this..... again it is in the process of restoration...... I don't own them so sorry no photos at this time....

Yeah canister would be my no.1 guess but would be interesting to see what kind of solid shot they might've used and what the cartridges were like. Also the steel ones sound interesting, I suppose they are rifled? And by 70mm japanese case, do you mean the WW2 era small "battalion gun" cases or some older piece?
yes the 70mm Japanese case of WW2 era fit these guns.... making an asumption that the japanese had developed an earlier breech loader on that cartridge.....
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline cannonmn

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Re: IMA ordnance items
« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2012, 02:15:32 PM »


Quote
That is a pretty serious implication you are making. Have you attempted to verify you observations, say via Royal Armories at Leeds or Fort Nelson?
   Ya lost me a bit on "serious implication."  Am simply stating that I've never seen a cannon flintlock with marks like that, in particular the "GR" (crown) arms.  And that's true, I haven't.  Have I seen every cannon flintlock in the world?  No, but I've seen many dozens including probably a couple dozen from England.  I've got photos of all the various cannon flintlocks that were in the Rotunda at Woolwich, many of Brit origin now in Canadian museums, all that were in a sizeable collection in Marylland, and others here and there.  No marks like that.     How cannon flintlocks were marked varied with the country of origin obviously but the most basic difference is where that country had them made.  France seems to have made theirs at their major small arms arsenals, and the marks on those are the cursive engraved name of the arsenal, just like on their bayonets, rifles, etc.  Those also have one or two other small marks or numbers.   English cannon locks all were made by contractors, at least from what I've seen. Sherwood being one of the most prolific, and their locks are marked with that name.  I've seen some by other contractors and like English contractor-made firearms, they may have just the contractor name, or name and address.  I know some locks are pictured in Blackmore's "Armouries of the Tower of London" vol. 1, Ordnance (a fantastic cannon book if you  can find one, I'd probably rate it among my "top five" of the "must haves.")

Offline Double D

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Re: IMA ordnance items
« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2012, 03:32:24 PM »
Well the practice for shoulder arms was to to mark the makers name



And include lock view marks



But if it was military arm it always had the Sovereigns cypher.   




I don't know if the protocol applied to cannon locks.  But if I saw a cannon lock represented as from the  British  Navy and it did not a Sovereigns cypher I would be suspicious.  My references show the practice of Sovereigns cypher being used as far back as 1685 and the reign a James II.

The Cypher on the IMA lock looks to be that of George the III.  His reign was from 1760 to 1820.  Was that the type of lock used on cannons in that time period?

 




Offline cannonmn

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Re: IMA ordnance items
« Reply #17 on: March 30, 2012, 04:02:26 PM »
Yes I've seen hundreds of small arms marked that way, but not one original, antique cannon flintlock.  The lock shown could be one of the repros being made in India.  They look pretty good, no markings at all, and show no genuine signs of age at all.

Offline cannonmn

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Re: IMA ordnance items
« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2012, 04:37:31 PM »
Cannon locks formerly at Rotunda in Woolwich.  Photos copyright CannonRest.  You can pick out the French locks by the cursive engraved arsenal names.  Locks from various countries are shown.   Those that look like musket locks aren't for cannons but are for wall guns, blunderbuss etc.
 


Offline steelcharge

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Re: IMA ordnance items
« Reply #19 on: March 31, 2012, 01:16:22 AM »
Blackmore's "Armouries of the Tower of London" vol. 1, Ordnance (a fantastic cannon book if you  can find one, I'd probably rate it among my "top five" of the "must haves.")

This is a good one, lots of info and pictures, big heavy book. There seems to be many copies on AbeBooks.com.

Offline A.Roads

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Re: IMA ordnance items
« Reply #20 on: March 31, 2012, 11:49:41 AM »
Regarding the cannon lock under discussion, I am also of the personal opinion that it is a modern Indian made repro with spurious markings and that someone somewhere along the line has been deceived as to its origins. Please note this is just my opinion, a very close inspection is neccessary to state otherwise.
 
This is the lock pattern that the Indians make, I know of several that have been imported by well meaning enthusiastic re-enactors, markings have been applied, as many re-enactors do. I also know of at least two collectors who bought such locks believing them to be original. Made by a small "cottage industry", in much the same way they were originally made, imported nearly a decade ago and after use by re-enactors, with good markings they are very convincing, more so than the IMA example.
 
Although cannon lock markings seem to be quite irregular in their use I have not until now seen the royal cypher placed on a cannon lock. With small arms it is found on the lockplate and with artillery pieces it is found on the barrel. The intent with the Cypher is to mark the arm, not the components. Also I have not seen the British use an anchor as a marking of naval issue/ownership. From about the 1860s the capital letter N can be found on some naval issue items, that is the only marking that the British used to distinguish between land & sea service that I know of.
Adrian
 

Offline KABAR2

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Re: IMA ordnance items
« Reply #21 on: March 31, 2012, 01:07:00 PM »
Adrian,
Am I correct about the touch hole configuration on the Napalese cannon? I have not seen this style on European cannon.... this should be an identifier for Napalese cannon falsely marked as European.....
 
Allen <><
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline Double D

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Re: IMA ordnance items
« Reply #22 on: March 31, 2012, 05:10:04 PM »
If any one ever doubts the value of this forum, they need to look at this post.  John and Adrian have provided information to prevent the unsuspecting for spending there money on something questionable.

Thanks John, thanks Adrian.

Offline A.Roads

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Re: IMA ordnance items
« Reply #23 on: March 31, 2012, 11:03:31 PM »
Adrian,
Am I correct about the touch hole configuration on the Napalese cannon? I have not seen this style on European cannon.... this should be an identifier for Napalese cannon falsely marked as European.....
 Allen

 
Hi Allen, with my interest confined to almost wholly British military ordnance I must confess to owning far more ignorance than I would like when it comes to uncommon and not well documented pieces from other countries. Whilst I'd be somewhat surprised to learn that it is British, I could be convinced that it is of French or of some other mainland European commercial origin. Generally though I would associate its bulbuous breech shape & heavily dished vent as perhaps being made in an Indian arsenal. It looks well made and the design would have both advantages & disadvantages. The IMA ordnance recovered from Nepal certainly is a subject well worth researching as there are many more questions than answers.
Adrian   

Offline Double D

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Re: IMA ordnance items
« Reply #24 on: April 03, 2012, 02:38:31 PM »
I received the following response today from Nicolas  Hall, Keeper of Artillery, Royal Armouries Museum, Leeds reference the lock being offered by IMA and questioned here as authentic.

Quote
Dear Douglas

The way the engraving and stamps are done looks authentic to me

Regards



Offline A.Roads

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Re: IMA ordnance items
« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2012, 12:59:36 AM »
The way the engraving and stamps are done looks authentic to me

A very cautious answer and quite understandably so. The way in which the inspection mark and broad arrow have been applied is authentic - they are stamped not engraved. Likewise a small scale royal cypher in this period would be done by way of engraving not stamping, as is evident in the method of its application in this case. I cannot comment on the anchor mark as I do not recollect ever having seen one before applied to any British ordnance items. When was the lock made & when was this stamping/engraving applied is the quandry. I dare say that Nic would give a similar cautious reply if asked about the lock below, however the lock below is less than 10 years old.
Adrian
 
 
 
 

Offline ima-usa

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Re: IMA ordnance items
« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2012, 08:26:36 AM »
  A Few words from Christian Cranmer, owner of IMA Inc, about the cannon lock posted for sale on our website here
 
This, as it turns out, unique Cannon Lock was purchased by IMA in England in 2012 as part of a British Naval Collection the 18th century and Napoleonic Wars. This Cannon Lock DID NOT originate as part of Nepalese "Old Palace" purchase of 2003.
 
 Since offering this Cannon Lock there has been speculation and concern expressed over the markings of Crown over G.R. and the Anchor stamp. On this matter we can confirm that this item came from an English Collection in 2012 and is in the same condition in which we received it. It may well be that these markings are unusual or may even have not been recorded before on such a lock but that doesn't mean they are fake.
 
 We all know fakes exist in this and any other Collector's business but just because something shows up which is unexpected doesn't make it not original. IMA stands behind all the items we sell. If an item is NEW MADE that is the first thing we state in a product listing, we would never knowingly sell something newly made as an original antique, and in the case of the cannon lock, regardless of all the speculation, we still believe it to be 100% authentic.
 
Now, a few words about the cannons found in Nepal-
 
As many people know I spent five months in Nepal in 2003 packing up 430 tons of antique military surplus weapons. This included 146 Cannons, Howitzers and Mortars, mostly Bronze and some of which were breach loaders.
 
Some bear Nepalese Crests or Coats of Arms, some bear European markings and some were unmarked. We received NO Cannon Locks, at least not that we have found as yet. We do still have unopened cases of smaller items to go through.
 
Many groups of cannons are by and large identical to each other, with and without markings. We enquired with the Nepalese at the time as to the origin of the Nepalese Crests and were told that the Crests denote the gifting of any one Cannon from the then "Prime Minister to the Army" showing the date (in Negari) when the Cannon was taken into service. By and large it was a tradition that many Cannons, obtained from where ever were so marked.
 
We were also informed that most Cannons were imported into Nepal by 18th and 19th century "Arms Dealers" without markings (having been removed) deliberately to hide the "origin" so that any reorder would come to the original supplier, all very logical and was not a new practice in the arms trade.
 
Nepal is a Mountain locked Kingdom high in the Himalayas; there was no access road for motorized Vehicles until the early 1950s. I even have a photograph of 40 porters carrying a late 1940s sedan automobile over the 60-mile pass.
 
The fact is that Nepal, a close ally of the East India Company and subsequently the British Crown, since 1816, yet remaining totally independent, was very well treated by the British is all respects which included arms and munitions. Nepal acted as a 'buffer' State between British India and Tibet, which is today part of China.
 
Now, as most people know this Nepalese purchase was not cheap and we of course used some borrowed money to bring it all home. In 2003 our first priority was to get out of debt. The cannons, which we at that point we really didn’t understand or have time for, were pushed very much onto the back burner.
 
We received many calls about this artillery but basically were too busy with handling the other materials to attend to cannon collectors at the time. At a Gun Show a close friend of mine in an effort to assist introduced me to whom, I was told, was one of the hobbies leading Collector Dealers. I explained that no doubt in the future my close friend might bring this gentleman to our establishment when we were sorted out at which time we might discuss matters.
 
On arriving at my office the following day at 8.30am I was indeed surprised to see this gentleman waiting for me. He explained he had come a long way and was just passing and decided to drop in. Reiterating that I was not ready for this and that I needed to do homework before getting into this I, as a good host, walked him through the one of our three warehouses. Perhaps 60-80 Cannons were scattered about (less than 50% of the total) we had additional cannons in our other warehouses in Pennsylvania and also in England.
 
I asked this gentleman if he was interested in assisting us with identification and perhaps the marketing of these "tubes" as the Nepalese always referred to them. He responded he was too busy. I asked him if he had any interest in the Cannons at all, to which he responded, "I have seen nothing I would not buy". All he wanted was individual prices but his timing was far too premature and he left, clearly unsatisfied.
 
I have seen this gentleman at various Gun Shows since and even tried speaking with him on one occasion however he just turns away. I later learned that another Collector Dealer who also had only seen a portion of our inventory and who did assist us with identification and marketing was a longtime serious competitor to my visitor so clearly I had ruffled my original visitor's feathers.
 
Since that time I am continually hearing how my original visitor has criticized the Cannons from Nepal. No doubt we have cannons that are low grade and native made but we also have, and have had, some truly wonderful examples that were clearly not made in South East Asia and some of these bear European markings. I suspect sour grapes play an element here.
 
The breach loading bronze Cannons, which are clearly conversions, are ALL Smooth bore, none of these former muzzleloaders were rifled. In some cases Nepalese and European Crest/Coats of Arms are still somewhat visible. Research tells us that on the North West Frontier the British converted muzzleloaders in this style to arm isolated fortresses with quick firing "shotgun" type cannon to repel native attacks in the Warziristan Campaign of 1895. Gurka troops were no doubt there and these Breach Loaders may have come home with them or the idea of converting Cannon already in Nepal may have originated with these troops. Regrettably, we do not have the Breach Blocks for all of them.
 
Clearly the Nepalese purchase has created great interest but some of the findings inevitably have changed what Collector's had previously understood. One Collector even decided the whole project was a ruse and that we were manufacturing all these Antiques in the third world and trying to hoist them onto the American Antique market.
 
So there you have it, we purchased 146 Cannon, Howitzers and Mortars and we have over half remaining, many are identical to each other, with or without markings.  A great majority of these originated outside Nepal be it from the East India Company or from Europe or both.
 
As time passes we will continue to offer an occasional Cannon on our web site but whatever happens it seems there are always people out there, well intentioned or otherwise, who may or may not be experts, who want to rain on the parade.
 
Finally if there are any of our customers who have purchased Cannons from us who think they were deceived or mislead please do not hesitate to contact me directly.     
 
Thank you for your interest in our material.
 
Sincerely,
 
Christian Cranmer

Offline cannonmn

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Re: IMA ordnance items
« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2012, 04:30:59 PM »
If anyone is interested, it might be useful at this point to hold a sort of a formal "vetting" of this particular lock, an in-person, hands-on inspection by a group of very knowledgeable folks representing various interests.  Examination by photo only is quite common today but can always be challenged.  I could bring several original cannon flintlocks for purposes of comparison, as well as some India-made fakes..
It would be nice if the person from Leeds could tell us where to look to find an authenticated antique British cannon flintlock with the same markings as the IMA example has. I don't know of one anywhere.  .As Adrian has pointed out, the "GR" cypher was applied to the weapon itself, not accouterments like a lock. In the case of small arms, the lockplate happened to be the most convenient place to apply the cypher, and I think whoever made up the IMA lock didn't understand how that system worked.  British cannon flintlocks normally had contractor markings and names.

 
 
 
 
 

Offline Double D

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Re: IMA ordnance items
« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2012, 07:51:46 PM »
John,

You and Adrian both point to the markings on the lock as questionable, because you have never seen a lock with these markings.  A very reasonable position to take.  When you say that, I listen.  When Adrian adds that he also has never seen such markings I really listen.  You both point to the presence  Royal Cypher on the lock as a key indicator that this lock is not real.

When the Keeper of Artillery, the Curator of the Royal Armouries Museum at  Fort Nelson  looks at the same pictures you have looked, and he does not  question the presence of the Royal Cypher, then I have to wonder if perhaps you and Adrian might be mistaken.

Who would you consider more expert on the subject, than the Keeper of the Artillery, Fort  Nelson?  Do you really believe  he would say "The way the engraving and stamps are done looks authentic to me" if cannon locks never had a cypher.  How could the lock look authentic with marks that supposedly never existed?

Who are the knowledgeable persons-the experts you would consider for this hands on inspection?  If these locks never bore the cypher and markings or had this shape, then all they should need to do is look at the pictures.

 

Offline cannonmn

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Re: IMA ordnance items
« Reply #29 on: April 05, 2012, 12:04:37 AM »
Quote
When the Keeper of Artillery, the Curator of the Royal Armouries Museum at  Fort Nelson  looks at the same pictures you have looked, and he does not  question the presence of the Royal Cypher, then I have to wonder if perhaps you and Adrian might be mistaken.
I'll throw out a few ideas, not claiming this set of them will explain anything fully, but:
-Everyone makes mistakes, no matter what their title or qualifications
The "right" questions need to be asked:
1.  Was this individual lock manufactured over 100 years ago?
2.  Where is there another flint cannon lock which is over 100 years of age,  with the same markiigs as are engraved on this one?
Not that I distrust English museum officials, but a former Master of Armouries at the Tower was doing a project and wanted to have the metal in one of my firearms analyzed.  He already had many photos of it, dimensions etc.  I sent a small sample of metal and after about a year, got the lab analysis and his own analysis, very positive statements about what was thought to be a medieval iron firearm.  That was about 25 years ago.  Last year I showed photos to a German with expertise in that area, and he threw the thing out immediately as a 19th C. decorative fake, and pointed out specific areas where he was able to be sure about his conclusion.  So experts disagree sometimes.  I believe the German guy simply because he made a more convincing case.