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Author Topic: Centerfire reciever, rimfire barrel, shotgun primer = breech loader single shot  (Read 3309 times)

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Offline MSP Ret

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Centerfire reciever, rimfire barrel, shotgun primer = breech loader single shot
« on: March 31, 2012, 07:29:43 AM »
Someone must have once said, time and an idle mind may lead to trouble, or at best an unknown situation...
 
Pardon me if this has been discussed before but if so I missed it. I was checking things out yesterday after some time at the range with my H&R ML. I had a problem with all 209 primers after the first sticking in the breechplug. I checked it over last night and cleaned to gun well. While thinking about the problem trying to fall asleep last night something dawned on me and I just checked it out.
A 209 shotgun primer fits in the chamber of a rimfire .22 Mag Sportster. When that barrel is placed on a centerfire frame, either SB1 or SB2, the primer fires and the primer is ejected just like a fired shell.
An old style/size Remington #57 primer fits in the chamber of a rimfire .22 LR Sportster. When that barrel is placed on a centerfire frame, either an SB1 or SB2, the primer fires and is ejected just like a fired shell.
To accomplish the above I simply placed the primer in the chamber with the ejector in the down or loaded position. I do not know if the ejector will slide over the rim of the primer if the primer is plced in the chamber and slides in over the ejector.
Now the interesting part, I am planning on trying some solid head lead .22 caliber air gun pellets or cast lead .22 caliber bullets out of the guns. I will first place the bullets or pellet in the chamber to be held in place by the start of the rifling. It should be an interesting experiment.
Has anyone done this before? If not, has anyone heard of it and if so with what results? A somewhat quiet breech loader single shot for target fun and small back yard varmints...Thanks....<><.... :)
 

I really don't know if this belongs in the centerfire, rimfire, or shotgun section, it encompasses all three. An equal opportunity employer so to speak!!!
   
 
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Offline jpshaw

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Re: Rimfire barrel, shotgun primer, centerfire receiver = breech loader single shot
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2012, 08:23:51 AM »
Well if I'm going to load a ML I'm looking for more smoke and a bigger bang myself but I'm going to check back to see how you did.  Good luck!
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Offline MSP Ret

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Centerfire reciever, rimfire barrel, shotgun primer = breech loader single shot
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2012, 08:29:29 AM »
Thanks, I did not shoot the shotgun primer powered rimfire barrel yet because I don't have any .22 caliber pellets or .22 caliber lead bullets on hand. All I have available for .22 caliber bullets are jacketed for .22 Hornet, .223, and .22-250. I will keep my eyes open for some pellets or lead bullets and post back when I get some and get a chance to shoot them. Perhaps another member with all the required items on hand and a little time can get to try it first....<><.... :)
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Offline Jason F

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Re: Centerfire reciever, rimfire barrel, shotgun primer = breech loader single shot
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2012, 12:27:33 PM »
I am definately gonna give this a try to it sounds interesting
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Offline Jason F

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Re: Centerfire reciever, rimfire barrel, shotgun primer = breech loader single shot
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2012, 12:30:04 PM »
If you got a 17 try some .177 pellets i got lots of them
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Offline stimpylu32

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Re: Centerfire reciever, rimfire barrel, shotgun primer = breech loader single shot
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2012, 12:32:20 PM »
I may just have to fire up the lead pot and cast a few 22 cal lead bullets , I have a mold for that .  ;D ;D ;D
 
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Re: Centerfire reciever, rimfire barrel, shotgun primer = breech loader single shot
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2012, 12:42:11 PM »
Jason F, great thought about the .177 caliber pellets, I do have some of those and I do have a couple of .17's, a HMR and a Mach2. The velocity might even be higher with the reduced bore size. My only fear is IIRC the .177 pellets I have are hollowpoint they may be blown right through by the pressure. We will find out. I do think the .17 HMR and Mach2's would use the old Remington #57 primers as does a .22 LR, as opposed to a #209 primer that fits a .22 Mag....<><.... :)
 
Stimpy, Cast 'em up buddy, and then the small critters that invade your back yard will be running scared!! I only wish shotgun primers were cheaper. I am going to keep watch at the used reloading/ammo sections of the gun stores and see if I can pick up a few hundred Remington #57 Shotgun primers. Lead .177 pellets are very inexpensive and I think a lot of fun could be had with them....<><.... :)
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Offline MSP Ret

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Re: Centerfire reciever, rimfire barrel, shotgun primer = breech loader single shot
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2012, 03:52:56 PM »
Thanks to Jason F's great suggestion about the .17's I have just returned up both flights of stairs from the indoor range (cellar, behind the stairwell). I am being fortified with a glass of white wine and am looking forward to an outdoor hottub and shower as soon as I finish this report.
 
1)  First on the range was the .17HMR/209. It consisted of a .17 HMR H&R barrel on an SB2 frame. It was loaded from the breech with a Crosman flathead 7.9 grain lead airgun pellet which was slid into the chamber and gently pushed into the lands with a thin epoxy mixing stick. After the action was closed and carefully opened so the ejecter was not sprung, a Remington #57 primer was placed in the chamber. My target was a 20 foot distant empty CLP spray can that had already had a hole punched in it to get the last of the CLP out. The gun shot fine, very quiet and the light pellet blew easily threw both sides of the can and cratered the thin steel outward on the way out. The #57 primer ejected smartly when the action was opened. More powerful than a Colibri or super Colibri....a success!!! (I should have used a 209 primer.)
(added info, the .17 HMR can use a #209 primer, however a .17 Mach2 or .17 Aquila must use a #57 primer.
 
While picking up a dropped primer I found an expended Colibri .22 caliber 20 grain bullet from an earlier time on the range, this lead to the following test of the .22 Mag/209.
 
2)  Second on the range was the .22 Mag/209. It consisted of a .22 Mag H&R Sportster barrel on an SB1 frame. It was loaded from the breech with the expended 20 grain Colibri bullet which was also slid into the chamber and gently pushed into the lands with the thin epoxy mixing stick. After the action was closed and carefully opened so the ejecter was not sprung, a Remington 209 primer was placed in the chamber. My target was the same 20 foot distant empty CLP spray can. Again the gun shot well, very quiet and completely through the can but with less apparant cratering, and again the expended primer ejected smartly when the action was opened. the .22 Mag/209 may have more power because of the almost triple weight of the bullet but both the .17/57 and .22 Mag/209 seemed more powerful than the Super Colibri. I have only shot one of each but seem to like the apparant velocity edge of the .17/57. The Super Colibri's are a little more convienent to load but these breech loaders are fun!!!....<><.... :) 
 
Would it be presumptuous for me to call these the .17HMR/209 MSP, .17Mach2/57 MSP, the .22 LR/57 MSP, ands the .22 Mag/209 MSP?....<><.... ;D 
 
     
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Offline jeepmann1948

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Re: Centerfire reciever, rimfire barrel, shotgun primer = breech loader single shot
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2012, 04:03:43 PM »
Gee thanks MSP now I need to find a 22 mag barrel! What a neat toy!!
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Offline MSP Ret

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Re: Centerfire reciever, rimfire barrel, shotgun primer = breech loader single shot
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2012, 04:09:44 PM »
Jeepmann, if you have a .17, either a .17 HMR or a .17 Mach2, try one of those. They only problem might be locating #57 primers if you want to stay with either of the .17s or a regular .22 LR. If you go to the .22 Mag then you can use the current size 209 shotgun primers and 22 caliber pellets. Actually using .22 Caliber airgun pellets they will be lighter than the 20 grain .22 caliber Colibri bullet I used so the velocity should be higher, I'll have to try that next.
Thinking about it I think I have even seen some .22 caliber airgun darts for sale. They might be great as well. I wonder if the darts come in .17 caliber as well? Any experienced airigun shooters out there to help with this breech loader project?....<><.... :)
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Offline MSP Ret

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Re: Centerfire reciever, rimfire barrel, shotgun primer = breech loader single shot
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2012, 04:23:22 PM »
For the record, the four combinations I can see so far are as follows:
 
1) .17/209 ------ .17 HMR shooting a pellet or a dart and powered by a #209 shotgun primer.
 
2) .17/57---------.17 Mach2 (or .17 Aquila) shooting a pellet or dart and powered by a #57 shotgun primer.
 
3) .22 Mag/209-.22 Mag shooting a pellet or a dart and powered by a #209 shotgun primer.

4) .22 LR/57----.22 LR shooting a pellet or dart and powered by a #57 shotgun primer.

There is the possibility of adding some carefully chosen propellant between the projectile and the primer but testing is stil needed on that...
 
....<><.... :)
 
P.S. - Thanks to Jason F for his heads up thinking and assistance in catagorizing thse possibilities correctly....<><.... :)
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Offline Jason F

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Re: Centerfire reciever, rimfire barrel, shotgun primer = breech loader single shot
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2012, 04:38:10 PM »
Shouldn't the 209 primer work in the 17 hmr since the 22 mag and 17 hmr have the same case head
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Offline Jason F

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Re: Centerfire reciever, rimfire barrel, shotgun primer = breech loader single shot
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2012, 04:41:22 PM »
My son is gonna be mad at me when I take the 22 mag apart and put it on a centerfire frame that is his favorite gun to shoot.
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Offline MSP Ret

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Re: Centerfire reciever, rimfire barrel, shotgun primer = breech loader single shot
« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2012, 05:11:56 PM »
Thanks for the collaberation Jason, your help is greatly appreciated. The .17 HMR will be best suited for a 209 primer while the .17 Mach2 will use a #57 primer. #57 primers can be used in place of #209 primers IF neccessary and will fire in .22 Mag and .17 HMR chambers, however, #209 primers will not fit in chambers of .22 LR or .17 Mach2.
I have made some changes to the list above and thanks.
 
Also think about this if you would, will the firing pin of a a rimfire receiver line up correctly to fire a shotgun primer placed in a .22 VersaPak barrel which has been placed on the rimfire receiver? Inquiring minds and all.
I thought about it and don't want to go down to the gun locker and start taking guns apart now, I am all showered and want to hit the rack...Thanks again and I'll get back to you tomorrow for your opinion...<><.... :)
 
fear not...this will all shake out in the end....<><.... ;D   
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Offline bikerbeans

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Re: Centerfire reciever, rimfire barrel, shotgun primer = breech loader single shot
« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2012, 06:35:20 PM »
Andy,
 
Would you consider the rem 57 a "starter" load and the 209 a "max" load? ::)    Maybe you can get the fellow down in the swamp to fire up his piezo and determine the chamber pressure. :o ;)
 
You are having way too much fun, I am jealous of your indoor range. 
 
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Offline PHATINJUN

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Re: Centerfire reciever, rimfire barrel, shotgun primer = breech loader single shot
« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2012, 08:00:10 PM »
I have used 22hornet,.223 cases with pistol and rifle primers and 22 cal pellets. Also milled out the pockets to fit 209 primers it was fun to play with but not to efficient use of time. I never did any thing with the .177 pellets as I thought they would just be trouble with the .171 bore of the 17. Small pistol primers in the 22Hornet might of been 500fps...but very low noise.Kurt
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Offline MSP Ret

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Re: Centerfire reciever, rimfire barrel, shotgun primer = breech loader single shot
« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2012, 01:51:24 AM »
Kurt, the .177 lead pellet worked great in the .17 HMR. The pellet is soft lead with a big hollow skirt and just swages down easily. Try it you will like it....<><....:)
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Re: Centerfire reciever, rimfire barrel, shotgun primer = breech loader single shot
« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2012, 03:06:15 AM »
Got a chance to check out the alignment of the VersaPak chamber in relation to a rimfire firing pin, it won't work. The VP chamber is lower then center and the rimfire firing pin is higher than center. If a VP barrel is placed on a rimfire receiver the firing pin strikes above the back of the cartridge, missing the cartridge completely. If fired the firing pin would strike the solid steel breech end of the barrel and most likely be damaged, don't do it.
Also, as a double check on Jason's valued insight, a 209 primer fits perfectly into the .17 HMR chamber....<><....:)   
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Offline dpe.ahoy

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Re: Centerfire reciever, rimfire barrel, shotgun primer = breech loader single shot
« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2012, 04:38:18 AM »
Are you sure you didn't have a couple of them white wines BEFORE you thought of this??? ;D   Interesting though, and sure worth a try.  Which do you think gives more pressure, the 57 or the 209?  (After a few hamhocks and beans, I probably do :-[ )  DP
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Offline MSP Ret

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Re: Centerfire reciever, rimfire barrel, shotgun primer = breech loader single shot
« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2012, 11:36:19 AM »
Hi dpe.ahoy, I am not sure if either the 57 (old size) or 209 (new size) has more power. I just use the one which fits the chamber best. A .22 Mag or .17 HMR can fit both #57 (a bit small) or a 209 which fits the best. A .22 LR or .17 Mach2 cannot use a 209 but the older #57 fits great. The #57 can also be used in a .22 Mag or a .17 HMR if needed but it's sort of like shooting a .22 LR in a .22 Mag chamber, possible to do in an emergency but not the best... ;D ;D ;D ...<><.... :)
 
I wonder what would have happened if I had not run out of hard liquor the night I dreamt this up???   
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Offline jeepmann1948

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Re: Centerfire reciever, rimfire barrel, shotgun primer = breech loader single shot
« Reply #20 on: April 01, 2012, 12:53:29 PM »
Guess I have too much time on my hands today, did some searching and came up with some articles on shotgun primers. This link has some good info but it is a long read to get the information.

http://www.armbrust.acf2.org/primersubs.htm

Now I have another question in my mind... Will the size of the flash hole affect the burn rate of the primer? I know it does in rifle cases.
More research is in order
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Re: Centerfire reciever, rimfire barrel, shotgun primer = breech loader single shot
« Reply #21 on: April 01, 2012, 01:56:37 PM »
Great info on the primers jeepmann. As far as the flash holes go I am not going to try to drill out the flashhole on a live primer!!!....<><.... ;)
 
P.S. - I responded about your Savage Model 24 in .357 over 20 gauge in another thread. I have one and have been looking for info, insight, direction, expierence and wisdom from someone who has reamed thiers to .357 Max. You are that guy..what can you tell me about it? I want to ream mine from Mag to Max...thanks...
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Offline jlwilliams

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Re: Centerfire reciever, rimfire barrel, shotgun primer = breech loader single shot
« Reply #22 on: April 01, 2012, 02:56:12 PM »
  Somewhere I have some little 22 airgun bullets.  They look like a 22lr projectle with a hollow base.  They are just about useless in my airguns because they are too heavy. If I had a 22magnum handi barrel, this may be just the way to use them up.
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Offline MSP Ret

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Re: Centerfire reciever, rimfire barrel, shotgun primer = breech loader single shot
« Reply #23 on: April 01, 2012, 03:18:07 PM »
If you have a .22 LR barrel you can also shoot the pellets by using the older size #57 shotgun primers, the newer shotgun primers (#209's) will not fit in a .22 LR chamber. I realize you said you don't have a .22 Mag barrel but in case others are trying to follow the combinations that fit and shoot in .22's, if you did have a .22 Mag barrel you could use 209 primers preferably, but the old size #57 will work as well....<><.... :)
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Offline tallyho

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Re: Centerfire reciever, rimfire barrel, shotgun primer = breech loader single shot
« Reply #24 on: April 01, 2012, 03:20:03 PM »
Dang it Andy! Now I gotta find a 17 barrel, and since I don't any longer reload shotgun, I gotta get some shotgun primers too.  :o

I got a ton of .22 and .177 pellets 'cause I buy them whenever I see them on sale. I've got air guns (rifles and pistols) of both calibers, and I've used .22 LR cases with the bullets pulled out, and those Remington nail driving blanks to fire the .22 pellets placed in the rifling, but since I don't have a 17 barrel, I've got way more .177 pellets...

Anybody got a spare .177 barrel to sell???  ;D

So, one more thing - to clarify. If I'm going to try this with my VP barrels (22WMR rebore, or standard 22LR) I don't put 'em on a Sportster rimfire frame, but I can on a centerfire frame.. or on neither? I've tried to visualize what's likely to happen, but there's too much clutter in my mind to get a clear visual.
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Offline MSP Ret

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Re: Centerfire reciever, rimfire barrel, shotgun primer = breech loader single shot
« Reply #25 on: April 01, 2012, 03:25:55 PM »
Unfortunately Kerry I have looked at the VP barrels and they cannot be used for this centerfire/shotgun primer/lead airgun pellet (or lightweight lead bullet) combination. When you put a VP barrel on a centerfire frame the firing pin strikes the cartridge rim therefore it cannot be used for this setup. If you put the VP barrel on a rimfire frame the firng pin strikes the solid steel breech end of the barrel and you would damage your firing pin, so that frame cannot be utilized either.
I can see either a .17 HMR or a .17 Mach2 in your future buddy....<><.... :)
 

Steps to take:
 
1) Get a H&R rimfire Sportster barrel.
 
2) Put the rimfire barrel on a centerfire frame it fits.
 
3) Push a lead pellet gently just into the rifling to hold it in place.
 
4) Load it up with the proper shotgun primer and fire away...
   
    .22 Mag barrel or .17 HMR barrel use a #209 primer (#57 primer ina pinch).
    .22 LR barrel or a .17 Mach2 barrel use the old size #57 shotgun primer only.
 
     VP (VersaPak) barrels CANNOT be used in any way for this setup...
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Offline tallyho

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Re: Centerfire reciever, rimfire barrel, shotgun primer = breech loader single shot
« Reply #26 on: April 01, 2012, 03:45:58 PM »
Thanks Andy. I do have a 22 Sportster and barrel - just don't have any shotgun primers, and the gunshow this weekend just ended. I wish I'd read this thread yesterday

 :( Oh well, I'll see what the local shops have. In the meantime, I'll ask the barrel fairy to loo for a .17 HMR (or even .17 H2) barrel for me.  ;D

Kerry
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Offline PHATINJUN

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Re: Centerfire reciever, rimfire barrel, shotgun primer = breech loader single shot
« Reply #27 on: April 01, 2012, 03:49:43 PM »
That's to bad I thought maybe I finally found a use for my 17HMR Versa pack .I sure ain't gonna mess with the 17MII that set up is shootin so well right now...I'm gonna be mad when it opens up to 1" at 100yrds and i got to clean it. It is by far the most consistantly accurate gun I have ever shot. Kurt
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Offline MSP Ret

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Re: Centerfire reciever, rimfire barrel, shotgun primer = breech loader single shot
« Reply #28 on: April 01, 2012, 04:00:39 PM »
Kurt, that .17 HMR VP barrel is lusted over by many here, and now to find out it shoots that good it's even more desireable. We will all enjoy it vicariously through you...
 
Kerry, be sure you get the old (outdated, no longer produced as far as I know of, and therefore cheap) #57 shotgun primers for your .22 LR Sportster barrel. The newer #209 primers will not fit into the .22 LR chamber (or a .17 Mach2 chamber, that will also require the use of the older #57 shotgun primers)...
 
 
....<><.... :)
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Offline tallyho

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Re: Centerfire reciever, rimfire barrel, shotgun primer = breech loader single shot
« Reply #29 on: April 01, 2012, 04:45:10 PM »
Quote from: tallyho on April 01, 2012, 03:45:58 PM
Thanks Andy. I do have a 22 Sportster and barrel - just don't have any shotgun primers, and the gunshow this weekend just ended. I wish I'd read this thread yesterday

 :( Oh well, I'll see what the local shops have. In the meantime, I'll ask the barrel fairy to look for a .17 HMR (or even .17 H2) barrel for me.  ;D

Kerry
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