Obama warns SCOTUS abt striking down his medical bill

[Dixie Dude]

FDR did refuse to have a welfare program just giving people money who were out of work.  He said they would loose their work ethic.  He was right.  He just created a lot of jobs programs to give these people work for their money.  Dams, roads, bridges, planting trees in national forests.  Obama just wants to have more handouts. 

[scootrd]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/health-care-provision-at-center-of-supreme-court-debate-was-a-republican-idea/2012/03/25/gIQAoCHocS_story.html

The individual insurance mandate, which requires virtually all Americans to obtain health coverage or pay a fine, was the brainchild of conservative economists and embraced by some of the nation’s most prominent Republicans for nearly two decades. Yet today many of those champions — including presidential hopefuls Mitt Romney and Newt Gingrich — are among the mandate’s most vocal critics.

As I posted on another thread  -  whether overturned or not , Lets not be history revisionist here. Whatever your stance lets all understand where the mandate originated. now It's all just political Brinksmanship to keep masses divided and common man swept up in the fray. If Dems are for , then Republicans naturally are against and/or vise versa.

The larger issue is GOVT is broken , they forgot they work for US not the other way around. Rather than coming together as a governing body and judge any and all idea on it's merits no matter what camp promotes a new idea and do whats best for the nation as a whole, it's more expedient to play partisan games digress to ramrodding partisan agendas through and promote gridlock and stagnation -  rather than acting like adults irregardless of political affiliations and doing whats best for a nation first as a functioning effective body of representatives.

Legislators would rather choose up sides , remain divided in two camps and take their shovels and pails down the beach in separate directions each blaming the other rather than working together as a cohesive unit to solve the nations real issues.

Lord of the flies.

Semper Fi

[hunt-m-up]

We are the only civilised nation not to have socialized medicine!. If obama care is struck down the grand old party and the dems will be so afraid of it no one will touch it for a generation which is twenty years people will be dieing in the streets. PS the number one emergency administration is abscess teeth.

Are you seeing a lot of highly successful nations that I missed? If you have people dying in the streets where you live I would suggest a change of residence is in order. Never had this happening before Obaminationcare and nothing has changed in this respect. Sounds like regurgitated liberal talking points.

[nomosendero]

We are the only civilised nation not to have socialized medicine!. If obama care is struck down the grand old party and the dems will be so afraid of it no one will touch it for a generation which is twenty years people will be dieing in the streets. PS the number one emergency administration is abscess teeth.

Are you seeing a lot of highly successful nations that I missed? If you have people dying in the streets where you live I would suggest a change of residence is in order. Never had this happening before Obaminationcare and nothing has changed in this respect. Sounds like regurgitated liberal talking points.

Yea, I was wondering where that is, I thought I live in a poor State, guess not!

[DDZ]

We are the only civilised nation not to have socialized medicine!.

So what? We are the only civilized nation to have a Constitution withstand for 225 years. That protects its people from governments that think they can take over things like health care. Maybe we should follow the example of France and other countries that have their Constitution rewritten every two years. I don't care if every other country on the globe has socialized health care. America is exceptional, and our founding Charters and the men and women that fought and died for freedom is the only reason that we have a good share of it left. if you want socialized health care go live in a country where its provided, and quit helping to tear our Constitution to pieces.  We shall see if SCOTUS does the right thing. The health care mandate is unconstitutional period! If it isn't, then government can mandate its people to buy anything, and its just what they want.           

[scootrd]

We are the only civilised nation not to have socialized medicine!.

So what? We are the only civilized nation to have a Constitution withstand for 225 years. That protects its people from governments that think they can take over things like health care....... America is exceptional, and our founding Charters and the men and women that fought and died for freedom is the only reason that we have a good share of it left.

Just an FYI as a bit of history  -

Though there is now opposition to the Affordable Care Act , it does have some precedence in our history.

In 1798, under 2nd President and Founding Father John Adams, the United States passed a law requiring mandatory health insurance for any private employees working on Maritime vessels. The bill was called “An Act for The Relief of Sick and Disabled Seamen”

The law authorized the creation of a government operated marine hospital service and mandated that privately employed sailors be required to purchase health care insurance. Thomas Jefferson was the President of the Senate during the 5^th Congress while Jonathan Dayton, the youngest man to sign the United States Constitution, was the Speaker of the House when the Law passed and was signed.

 So , it is quite an interesting debate  -  What the framers would support , and the position they would have adopted today with regards to heathcare.

It is an interesting discussion point.

[Swampyankee25J]

I have a warning also.  I wont be voting his way come Nov.

[Cuts Crooked]

Just an FYI as a bit of history  -

Though there is now opposition to the Affordable Care Act , it does have some precedence in our history.

In 1798, under 2nd President and Founding Father John Adams, the United States passed a law requiring mandatory health insurance for any private employees working on Maritime vessels. The bill was called “An Act for The Relief of Sick and Disabled Seamen”

The law authorized the creation of a government operated marine hospital service and mandated that privately employed sailors be required to purchase health care insurance. Thomas Jefferson was the President of the Senate during the 5^th Congress while Jonathan Dayton, the youngest man to sign the United States Constitution, was the Speaker of the House when the Law passed and was signed.

 So , it is quite an interesting debate  -  What the framers would support , and the position they would have adopted today with regards to heathcare.

It is an interesting discussion point.

What this fails to take into account is that Seamen could get out of paying for this....by changing jobs! And they were not REQUIRED to use it. Unlike the Obamanations bill which you, as a citizen, have no choice in the matter....either buy the insurance or pay for everyone else's through fines.

[DDZ]

So since this act was passed that directly targeted workers involved in navigation, we are to assume that Obamacare is then Constitutional? I don't think the two are even closely related. Just considering the character of the framers, and the few and limited powers given to government by our Constitution. We have a pretty good idea that the framers would have no support for Obamacare. Night and day difference between Obamacare and the Act for the relief of sick and disabled seamen, but the progressives will try anything to lesson our freedom and increase governments power.       

[scootrd]

So since this act was passed that directly targeted workers involved in navigation, we are to assume that Obamacare is then Constitutional? I don't think the two are even closely related.         

DDZ  I'm not a lawyer so I don't know how closely related the two are or are not. I do find it interesting the Govt in the 1700's felt it was not an overstepping or an over reach of federal powers to mandate Private citizens be forced to purchase health care.

This is what Forbes published with regards to the specific discussion point you put forth.

Excerpt -
While I’m sure a number of readers are scratching their heads in the effort to find the distinction between the circumstances of 1798 and today, I think you’ll find it difficult. Yes, the law at that time required only merchant sailors to purchase health care coverage. Thus, one could argue that nobody was forcing anyone to become a merchant sailor and, therefore, they were not required to purchase health care coverage unless they chose to pursue a career at sea.However, this is no different than what we are looking at today.Each of us has the option to turn down employment that would require us to purchase private health insurance under the health care reform law. Would that be practical? Of course not – just as it would have been impractical for a man seeking employment as a merchant sailor in 1798 to turn down a job on a ship because he would be required by law to purchase health care coverage.What’s more, a constitutional challenge to the legality of mandated health care cannot exist based on the number of people who are required to purchase the coverage – it must necessarily be based on whether any American can be so required.

Again , I find this whole discussion fascinating , especially because the Mandate was initially a conceived conservative Republican idea. It will certainly be interesting to read the Supreme court decision once it is ruled upon and handed down. 

[nomosendero]

Even if a "Conservative" came up with a "mandate concept" first, it would only prove anyone can make mistakes & making the folks buy a product is wrong period, regardless of origin. Did someone say Conservatives never came up with a bad idea?

[BUGEYE]

back in those days, a sailing ship was one of the most dangerous places in the world.
the government was getting tired of taking care of crippled sailors.

[ironglow]

   Back to the subject of the thread;
 
   Obama WARNS the SCOTUS !
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  I think he crapped in his hat !          

[Dixie Dude]

My wife downloaded the entire bill last year and read it.  I exempts Muslims and Amish from having to have insurance or the mandate.  Why everyone else?  If Baptists, Catholics, Methodists, etc, go to court and as for exemptions, would they get it also?  In the bill, it says a panel would decide who is qualified to get what.  (Death panels), it is in there plain as day, just not called that.  For example, if there is only one pacemaker available for a 40 year old and an 80 year old, the younger gets it first.  Doesn't matter who was first in line or what insurance they have.  Younger get first dibs on transplants, or any other needs.  Basically rationed care.  Also, if you don't get insurance, they can fine you.  Fine amounts have not yet been determined.  All medical and dental records must be electronic and accessable by any doctor or the GOVERNMENT panel nationwide.  So much for patient confidentiality.  It has a ton of flaws, mandates, and government oversite (bureaucracy the gets bloated and costs a lot).  If you get off the grid and need a doctor, you could be jailed or fined.  This is NOT freedom. 
 
Tweeking Medicare and Medicaid, allowing insurance companies to cross state lines, limiting mal-practice, not being turned down for pre-existing conditions, allowing you to choose your deductable amount and co-pay ammount to cut costs like care or home owners insurance, are steps in the right direction.  Lots of things can be done to tweek and cut costs without mandates, without a bloated government bureauracy. 

[scootrd]

My wife downloaded the entire bill last year and read it.  I exempts Muslims and Amish from having to have insurance or the mandate.  Why everyone else? 

I downloaded and read in entirety as well. I noted the exemption for Amish and had the same question.
Just recently I saw a documentary on the Amish. It was quite interesting and at a high level explained a little of it. The Amish have their own Healthcare program Just for Amish, IE: If an Aamish person is ill and requires treatment and cannot pay the community through the church pays the Bill and the recipiant pays the community back. They also do not pay into social security nor will they receive any as well and they do not accept nor collect welfare benefits. The Amish seem to function in quite a few aspects as  independent, separate and sovereign communities of peoples.

It was a great documentary I learned a lot.

Do Amish pay property Taxes or is it tax exempt communal property owned through the church?

[SwampThing762]

Cuts Crooked:

What this fails to take into account is that Seamen could get out of paying for this....by changing jobs! And they were not REQUIRED to use it. Unlike the Obamanations bill which you, as a citizen, have no choice in the matter....either buy the insurance or pay for everyone else's through fines.

.
.
Don't we 'payers' already pay for the 'unpayers' with higher rates, fees, co-payments, and drug prices....and we don't have a choice??  How do you figure to get these non-payers to pay up their share and stop putting the load on us......?
.
Secondly, somebody said there is a $17 trillion hole in the Obamacare bucket....I would like to know who is poised to get this money, because it seems like alot of 'cabbage'....

.
...TM7

TM7,

This seems to be another one of the rare times that I agree with you.   The Obamacare bill does absolutely nothing to address the costs of healthcare.    The single largest driver of healthcare cost in America is services that are not paid for by recipients.   The EMTALA law says that a hospital must treat anyone who comes to the ER, regardless of their ability to pay, but more to the point, the choice to pay.     People know that they cannot legally be compelled to pay for services received.  That is why healthcare costs are so high for those of us with insurance and do pay.

You say that Obamacare has a $17 trillion dollar hole, you are right, but I think the hole will be much deeper when the truth comes out.  Yup, that is a lot of cabbage........and taters and carrots, as well.

I think we should start over with healthcare reform legislation.     One necessary change is to make people who choose to pay for medical services be treated like deadbeat dads  -- take the cost of services out of their checks.   Perhaps another change is a modification of EMTALA -- triage and refer primary care cases to a clinic.

These two changes, as well as allowing insurance companies to sell policies across state lines, could go a long way to achieve a modicum of healthcare reform.

I will say again, though, that the biggest component of healthcare reform is making deadbeat patients pay, to quote our Fearless Leader Obama, "their fair share".

ST762

[ironglow]

  The Amish and the muslims have their own plans...  so why are not the Baptists, Lutherans, Agnostics and Flat Earthers allowed to form their own insurance companies ?  Obamacare is just liberals doing what they do best..meddling in other people's lives.  Compulsive control freaks... they just can't help themselves..and never help anyone else..

[scootrd]

  The Amish and the muslims have their own plans...  so why are not the Baptists, Lutherans, Agnostics and Flat Earthers allowed to form their own insurance companies ?  Obamacare is just liberals doing what they do best..meddling in other people's lives.  Compulsive control freaks... they just can't help themselves..and never help anyone else..

In May 2011, Vermont passed in a 94 to 49 vote and Gov signed the states plan for Universal Healthcare. The state is on it's way to create and adopt the first publicly financed universal healthcare system ("single payer.") The state will have a health insurance exchange through which individuals and small businesses can purchase coverage. This exchange will become a publicly financed health plan called Green Mountain Care that is available to all Vermont residents. 

With the signing of the bill into law Vermont became the first state to enact a comprehensive single-payer health care system. The long-term goal is to require everyone to purchase coverage through the exchange and transition to a single payer-style health system by 2017.

Employers with 51 to 100 workers will remain exempt from mandatory participation in the state's health insurance exchange through 2016. Employers with 50 or fewer workers will be required to participate in the exchange and  Companies with more than 100 employees are exempt.

[Dixie Dude]

Why were the large businesses exempt?  Is is because they already have plans for their employees?  What if as an individual I don't want health care, because of say my religious beliefs?  The constitution has freedom OF religion, not manditory health care written in it.  What if someone wants to live "off the grid"?  What if someone is wealthy and wants to buy their own insurance?  In 1960 85% of Americans had health care.  85% could still get it 3-4 years ago IF they wanted it.  Yes, the system needed streamlining, more competitive, mal-practice limits, crossing state lines, no pre-existing conditions, but to get a big bloated Federal bureaucracy is nuts.  Postal service can't operate in the black, neither can social security, medicare and medicaid.  I say streamline and implement the changes I listed and see what happens. 

[magooch]

  The Amish and the muslims have their own plans...  so why are not the Baptists, Lutherans, Agnostics and Flat Earthers allowed to form their own insurance companies ?  Obamacare is just liberals doing what they do best..meddling in other people's lives.  Compulsive control freaks... they just can't help themselves..and never help anyone else..

In May 2011, Vermont passed in a 94 to 49 vote and Gov signed the states plan for Universal Healthcare. The state is on it's way to create and adopt the first publicly financed universal healthcare system ("single payer.") The state will have a health insurance exchange through which individuals and small businesses can purchase coverage. This exchange will become a publicly financed health plan called Green Mountain Care that is available to all Vermont residents. 

With the signing of the bill into law Vermont became the first state to enact a comprehensive single-payer health care system. The long-term goal is to require everyone to purchase coverage through the exchange and transition to a single payer-style health system by 2017.

Employers with 51 to 100 workers will remain exempt from mandatory participation in the state's health insurance exchange through 2016. Employers with 50 or fewer workers will be required to participate in the exchange and  Companies with more than 100 employees are exempt.

That last pargraph makes no sense.

[Cuts Crooked]

Fourthly, I believe you're the poster that brought up the $17 trillion hole in Obamacare, (or windfall.. )....now where did you say that money was going to...?
.
.TM7

Uh....Methinks you got the question backwards! It's, "where is that money COMING FROM?"

[scootrd]

Why were the large businesses exempt?  Is is because they already have plans for their employees? 
I would assume so.

What if as an individual I don't want health care, because of say my religious beliefs? 
Don't know they are still in the ironing out all the details phase

The constitution has freedom OF religion, not manditory health care written in it.  What if someone wants to live "off the grid"? 
Don't know they are still in the ironing out all the details phase

What if someone is wealthy and wants to buy their own insurance? 
Yes my understanding is there will be an opt out provided you are covered in other ways

Here is one article  -  http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2011/02/08-6

Excerpt
"I know you have been anxious to receive this proposal and get to work on the details. I also know you will find flaws in it," Wallack said. "We don't think we have all the answers, but we think we are putting in front of you a solid proposal for moving forward with major, meaningful health reform." The plan would move the state through three stages in four years to reach the target of a single-payer system.

Postal service can't operate in the black, neither can social security, medicare and medicaid.  I say streamline and implement the changes I listed and see what happens. 

The issue with the postal service is not that thay cant operate in the black , they can and do . The issue is Congress has mandated to prefund up to seventy five years I believe PO retirement benefits.  No other "Company in America has ever had to do that". It's ridiculous. They have to set aside approx 5.5 Billion a year into retirement funds for people who are not even born yet but may end up working for the post office in the future. RIDICULOUS

Social Security can absolutely operate in the black. 1. they need to stop using it as a slush fund and raid it like robber barons. 2.) they need to put the monies back in they stole from the American workers. 

[Cuts Crooked]

Social Security can absolutely operate in the black. 1. they need to stop using it as a slush fund and raid it like robber barons. 2.) they need to put the monies back in they stole from the American workers.

WONDERFUL!!!!!!!!!!!! Now that you have stated the problem, how do you propose to solve it?

[SwampThing762]

Social Security can absolutely operate in the black. 1. they need to stop using it as a slush fund and raid it like robber barons. 2.) they need to put the monies back in they stole from the American workers.

WONDERFUL!!!!!!!!!!!! Now that you have stated the problem, how do you propose to solve it?

Raid the welfare parasite funds to give money to folks that worked for a living.  Then the welfare parasites must get off their lazy butts and get a, er....what's that word? oh yeah!, job.

ST762

[ironglow]

   The Lefties are all trying to convince us how great this Obamacare is, which the president and congress stuffed down all our  throats...
  Pray, tell us then;  If Obamacare is so wonderful, whay aren't the president and congress joining in on it for themselves ?

[scootrd]

To get back on track of original OP.

There is no  difference in what obama said and what Bush said. Actually Obama was just reminding everyone of what Bush said.

Obama  - 
Here’s a portion of the text from the video:  “… uh ultimately I’m confident that the Supreme Court uh will not take what would be an unprecedented extraordinary step of overturning uh a law that was passed by a strong majority of uh a democratically elected congress.  And I’d just remind conservative commentators that for years what we’ve heard is the biggest problem on the bench was judicial activism or a lack of judicial restraint that uh an unelected uh group of people would somehow overturn uh a duly constituted and passed uh law. Well, this uh a good example and I’m pretty confident that this court uh will recognize that and not take that step.”


Bush  - 
For the judiciary, resisting this temptation is particularly important, because it's the only branch that is unelected and whose officers serve for life. Unfortunately, some judges give in to temptation and make law instead of interpreting. Such judicial lawlessness is a threat to our democracy -- and it needs to stop.
                                                                                                      George W. Bush

Not a valid youtube URL
And in 2008, Bush commented that the "concept of a 'living Constitution' gives unelected judges wide latitude in creating new laws and policies without accountability to the people."

What Obama comment was referencing was the Bush Administration years when President Bush referred to supreme court as being Judicial Activists.


It's all just silly Brinksmanship and political pandering .

[ironglow]

  Bush was correct in referring to those "justices" who think the constitution is a 'living, breathing' document.  If someone rules with that false concept in mind, they are not going by the constitution.
   That's why it is called a CONSTITUTION.. because it is not meant to"float like a butterfly", or be a will-o-the-wisp document.
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  OK..I answered your question, now answer mine;
 
     Pray, tell us then;  If Obamacare is so wonderful, whay aren't the president and congress joining in on it for themselves ?

[scootrd]

  Bush was correct in referring to those "justices" who think the constitution is a 'living, breathing' document.  If someone rules with that false concept in mind, they are not going by the constitution.
   That's why it is called a CONSTITUTION.. because it is not meant to"float like a butterfly", or be a will-o-the-wisp document.
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
 
  OK..I answered your question, now answer mine;
 
     Pray, tell us then;  If Obamacare is so wonderful, whay aren't the president and congress joining in on it for themselves ?

So if Bush was correct , then Obama was correct because he was only pointing out what Bush said?


ADDITIONALLY ,
You must have me confused with someone else , I never said anything of the sort about wonderful ??

Aside from pointing out it was a republican idea to begin with them adopted by DEMS . The only other comment I made was from a purely legalistic perspective given the 1700 Seamans mandate it will be interesting to see the decision the bench hands down.

I think you better re-read this thread and my posts specifically before baiting your fishing hook. 

[Dixie Dude]

On the Amish question, I think they do have to pay property taxes, so they sell canned goods, baked goods, quilts, home made dolls, and wood furniture and things.  Sometimes they sell excess of what they produce off their farms.  This is how the get money for property taxes, kerosene for their lamps, cloth for clothes. 
 
The 17 trillion was 1.5-1.7 trillion a year for 10 years.  We have no way of funding this except through higher taxes, in which some were increased to cover it, and/or hyper inflation. 
 
Off the Grid News has an article about rising food prices.  You know, watch what George Soros invests in, last year he invested in food commodies and farmland.  He manipulates the market to his gain.  For some reason we now have a shortage of corn and soybeans, thus higher prices and higher meat and egg prices.  Hmmm. 
 
If figured by 1980 standards we ran a 9.6% inflation rate last year.  Of course the Obama administration doesn't include food and fuel prices because they are too "volitile".  Everyone has to have both though.  Better to raise your own food and store sale items to combat inflation. 

[Graybeard]

The illegal in the white house is lucky I'm not on the court. If I were one of the supremes I'd not even consider the government's case I'd just vote to overturn it. I hope at least five of them have the guts to do so.