Author Topic: Still trying to track down an Accu Trigger Savage...  (Read 2138 times)

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Offline big6x6

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Still trying to track down an Accu Trigger Savage...
« on: January 27, 2004, 01:51:30 PM »
Obviously the economy is TOO good because dealers only want to go to as little trouble as possible..  I've gotten every excuse you can imagine.  I'm still not finding any Accu Trigger Savages...
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Offline Underclocked

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« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2004, 02:13:50 PM »
Have you tried the fellow at Dustinbrass.com ?
WHUT?

Offline big6x6

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« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2004, 02:21:46 PM »
No, Rich.. I didn't know of any such animal!!
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Offline big6x6

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« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2004, 02:25:01 PM »
Just tried that...I couldn't get anything to come up....
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Offline RandyWakeman

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Offline big6x6

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« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2004, 03:58:24 PM »
Good enough...Thanks, Randy!
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Offline woodseye

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« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2004, 01:06:37 PM »
I jumped to this thread as the title is more inline with the discussion taking place on the Savage ML'er lapping thread I started that turned into a search for anyone stocking the new accu-trigger Savage ML'ers. As stated over there, its very hard to locate the new accu-trigger guns, and this despite what Savage is telling Randy and the fact they are supposed to be shipped and available at dealers right now.

Dustin a supplier who's link is over at the Savage forum says 14 weeks before he sees any and he has a waiting list, Midsouth has none, on Gunsamerica where there is always at least 15-20 Savage ML'ers at any time there is 1 non-accu trigger,Natchez which was mentioned as having them turns out to be selling the older non accu-trigger models and the sales person said they have no idea when they will have the accu-trigger models as he went and checked yesterday for someone, and it gets weirder yet........my dealer just called Jerrys today and was told they are still unavailable and have not been released from Savage yet! What a strange search this has been  :?

I posted up a sporting goods dealer on the other thread that has accu- triggers to ship (Winks Sporting Goods) and just got off the phone with him..........they are going fast and if you are looking for one be advised that since putting his site up on two forums it won't take long to empty him of accu-trigger guns. I just bought mine and mission is accomplished but it shouldn't have been that hard and something must be happening.......

Either dealers are holding back waiting to sell old pre accu trigger stock or someone is simply not being honest. To be told they are not being shipped yet when one guy over on the Savage forum bought his last October and to find a dealer that has them to sell now, would lead one to believe that its a different story from each supplier. Savage doesn't seem to have a clue whats going on either but since they are the ones shipping them they must know who has taken delivery of the new models huh?..... unless dealers are sitting on them until older stocks are sold and lying about not having them yet. Well I got mine and wish everyone looking to buy one the best of luck.

     woods
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Offline RandyWakeman

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« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2004, 01:53:03 PM »
Savage doesn't seem to have a clue

Hi Dave,

Well-- Savage has been shipping them, they just have no control over what major distributors tell dealers, and local dealers just repeat what they are told.

The V-P of Savage Arms has expressed his willingness to get involved on behalf of any dealer who has difficulty locating them. They are available, and the "14 weeks delivery" nonsense appears to be just that.

Offline big6x6

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« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2004, 02:50:00 PM »
Done and done!  I want to thank everyone that made this possible; the Academy, Woods, Randy Wakeman, Winks, Savage, and, and, I'm sure I'm forgetting someone.....
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Offline woodseye

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« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2004, 12:12:38 AM »
Glad you got one Chuck, I've dealt with Gary Wink before (he one of the lowest priced Zeiss Conquest dealers there is) and he's honest and up front. I have located some very reasonable prices on the older non accu-trigger stock so its a bargin time to buy one of these if you have been waiting. The new ones are more so they will never be cheaper and $399 for a blued/synthetic is about dealer price. Now to get powders to start on these new duplex loads I've heard so much about.........and then theres sub-bases.......and oh yeah dead centers and SST's.......wow so many choices so little time  :eek:

    woods
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Offline woodseye

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« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2004, 12:15:35 AM »
Hey Randy.........I think Savage knows just what going on and is turning a blind eye while old stocks are being pushed out. Shame is there is a lot of out and out lying going on and a gun that is supposed to be available is all but non-existant on the market. Jerrys appears to be joining the ranks of the misinformation dealers and I'm happy to say in turn lost my business.

    woods
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Offline RandyWakeman

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« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2004, 03:37:12 AM »
Quote from: woodseye
Hey Randy.........I think Savage knows just what going on and is turning a blind eye while old stocks are being pushed out.


Can't say it is Savage-- some dealers are completely out of everything, and would be thrilled to get non-AT models as well. One called this AM, he has 14 already bought and paid for, just waiting for inventory.

Offline woodseye

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« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2004, 10:51:41 AM »
Quote
Can't say it is Savage-- some dealers are completely out of everything, and would be thrilled to get non-AT models as well. One called this AM, he has 14 already bought and paid for, just waiting for inventory.


Well in that case its still Savage just not able or unwilling to ship product that was supposed to be available a month ago. There is something very wrong with this picture and it all still leads back to Savage. When you talk to them they tell you they are available and they would be glad to guide you to these guns but the dealer you just mentioned is in danger of losing sales and they aren't leading him to any guns or supplying him with any apparently. Maybe another case of guns that are advertised and a market created before the product is really available in any amount.


Quote
There has been "rumors" that somehow the Savage 10ML-II Accutrigger models are not available-- these are completely wrong.

Per the V-P of Savage Arms, the 10ML-II Accutrigger models are the only models catalogued or made by Savage Arms.

They are readily available, and have been since November 2003. Your local pro-shop can order one today through Accu-Sport, Jerry's, Zander's, etc., -- any major Savage distributor. All it takes is a phone call for them.



I was really showing that the above opening statement was not "rumor" and statements made by Savage was not really the case at all. I made my posts to outline the real world troubles finding one and how they really are in very short supply.

     Maybe it will get better in the next couple months........it can't really get much worse  :wink:

     woods
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Shoot Straight - Shoot Often - Shoot Smokeless - Shoot Savage!


Offline RandyWakeman

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« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2004, 11:23:11 AM »
Well, Dave,

It seems to point more to dealers / jobbers. There reason for saying this is Chuck Hill (Chuck, correct me on this) called Natchez to buy a 10ML. He was told, "yes, they had some 30 in stock"-- didn't know "if" they were AT or not. Believe they said they would "be able" check in 3 days or so. Sound like someone needs to be motivated to read a packing slip, or check in inventory? Does not sound like they wanted a sale bad enough to look inside a box :roll: -- so, they lost it, and rightfully so.

Savage has already been in contact with dealers expressing supply problems. Some may find it surprising that a muzzleloader is so sought after in late January-- and are just not prepared for it. Either the Savage 10ML is one terrific rifle, or muzzleloaders and dealers are a just a bit nuts? I think both are likely true.

Glad you got yours, Woodseye. :grin:

Offline big6x6

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« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2004, 02:30:34 PM »
ACTUALLY he said they had over sixty in stock, some Accutriggers and some not.  They were unwilling to find out which WERE Accutrigger guns.  It was my understanding you place your order and take your chances OR "give me two or three days to sort this out."  I didn't give him two or three HOURS.
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Offline woodseye

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« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2004, 11:58:03 PM »
When I called them they said they had just checked for someone else the day before and none of their guns were accu-trigger.

I stand with my opinion that this is not all a jobber or dealer level issue as dealers with waiting lists as with Dustin and the one Randy mentioned would be quite interested in making a sale and would certainly order them from Savage, if they remained gunless theres only one reason. I believe Savage only released a trickle of guns so far even though this has been a shipable product since November. Sad such a great gun should be so hard to lay your hands on, but as you see with a little determination Chuck and I have our guns coming.

Which gun did you order Chuck? Did Gary treat you good on price?

      woods
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Offline big6x6

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« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2004, 02:18:00 AM »
"Did you see this link over on Tobys site?"

Yes I did.  My jaw dropped when I read what he is doing.  I have been reloading twenty-two years.  22 K-Hornet to 375 H&H.  I can SEE from my seat, twelve different reloading manuals(Still more somewhere!).  I picked up the first two my hand fell on.

1.  Nosler #4 pg. 21.
    1.  NEVER mix powders of different kinds.

2.  Speer #13 pg. 62.
    17.  NEVER MIX PROPELLANTS.  Blending powders to get a particular
           performance level is extremely hazardous.  Stick with standard  
           commerical propellants.

And QUICKLY on the web:

http://www.imrpowder.com/safe.html
#12

http://www.reload-nrma.com/basic-rules.html
#1 "Powder Warnings."

http://www.alliantpowder.com/safety/reloading_safety.php
Third one down

http://www.hodgdon.com/data/general/index.php

and on, and on, and on..

NOT a safe practice.
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Offline RandyWakeman

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« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2004, 02:23:50 AM »
Quote from: woodseye
I stand with my opinion that this is not all a jobber or dealer level issue as dealers with waiting lists as with Dustin and the one Randy mentioned would be quite interested in making a sale and would certainly order them from Savage


Hello Woodseye,

This is neither here nor there, and if it is-- I'd guess it is mostly there! Few dealers I've talked to have bothered to contact Savage directly about supply problems, in fact none have. I don't blame them, particularly, as Savage goes through distributors just like Ruger, and other major manufacturers. No dealer can just pick up the phone and order a single rifle from Ruger. Wal*Mart sells a lot of guns, there are a huge account by anyone's standards. Yet-- any non-shelf product is rarely ordered from the manufacturer, they will call a distributor as well (Lipsey's, last I knew).

The firearm industry has been well known for their huffs, puffs, guffaws, and mis-steps. Several models in published catalogs have never, ever been made. The Ruger Mini-14 in .308 is one such product. Ruger's "Gun of the Year" of a few years ago, the "Gold Label," has yet to be made. Winchester's 9410 .410 received a lot of press-- yet, how long was it before the first few were shipped?

Contingent on when an individual distributor's fiscal year ends, there is little motivation for them to fill their shelves with anything-- that varies by distributor. Also, muzzleloading has always been a cyclical business. It is all up to any distributor to order or not order as they see fit. Any distributor can place an order-- yet, not wanting to fill their warehouses with product at a traditionally slow time in the muzzleloading cycle, it is strictly up to them what they order and when.

Just take a look at the majority of manufacturers out there. Are their web sites current? Do they even have a 2004 catalog yet? To be fair, 2004 is still young. It is the same year after year-- new models are formally introduced at the Shot Show, and things proceed from there. Any number of "New Product Press Releases" can currently be cited-- yet, there will be no availability until the second or third quarter. It gets confusing to the consumer. Knight "Revolution" ads are out there, Cabela's (as they often are) is a bit premature in adding them to their website. Not one single production "Revolution" has ever been made, tested, or sold-- and Knight can't even give a specific ship date for the first run-- though "April-ish" has been mentioned. Thompson Center "threatened" to offer their Contender G2 for a few years-- the first few have been shipped only very recently.

On top of all this, distributors do not always ask for shipment "ASAP"-- a distributor can have a large scheduled purchase order in place, yet with a June or July release date. They can rightfully tell their dealers "availability is expected to be mid-June"-- though, that was their decision, not the manufacturers.

There is obviously room for improvement in communication and distribution effectiveness all over the board; Savage and their dealers are no exception in that regard. However, I don't believe Savage would invest the time, money, and effort to improve their 10ML-II by retooling for the Accu-Trigger, changing the safety, and upgrading the ramrod for a still better product if they did not care to sell them! And, all this was accomplished in a matter of months, not years.

The Savage 10ML-II still has room for improvement, IMO, but in more subtle ways. Yet, it is a fabulously competent and well-made hunting machine, and a lifetime gun. Again, IMO, far too many muzzleloaders are built like tinker-toys-- the Savage is a refreshing change from that.

Though instant shipment of 2004 product is not always possible, what remains is that any dealer finding unsatisfactory answers regarding long-lead times from their distributors can contact Savage Arms management directly. No single dealer that has ever done so has not received prompt help in that regard from Savage brass that I am aware of.

Offline RandyWakeman

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« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2004, 03:01:27 AM »
Quote from: big6x6
"Did you see this link over on Tobys site?"

Yes I did.  My jaw dropped when I read what he is doing.  I have been reloading twenty-two years.  22 K-Hornet to 375 H&H.  I can SEE from my seat, twelve different reloading manuals(Still more somewhere!).  I picked up the first two my hand fell on.


Chuck,

As you know, there is seldom completely "right or wrong"-- shades of gray are more like it. Opinions, I'm full of. At least! :roll:

I won't take a lot of bandwidth here to expound in detail, but . . .

The Savage 10ML is a "new" way for a lot of muzzleloaders, and many muzzleloaders want solid, 100% reliable performance in a path that is not confusing, and hardly want to be bothered with areas that are experimental at all. They want a worry-free hunting machine, with "keep it simple stupid" direction that leaves little room for doubt, confusion, or areas that cause their brains to bleed. The want to put the bullet where it belongs with 100% confidence, and go have fun. The path to that in the Savage is quite easy, much easier than most would possibly believe.


ALL anyone needs is Accurate Arms 5744-- a very forgiving, easily ignitable powder by smokeless standards that can be measured by using Lee Powder dippers easily, or naturally scales.

The path is easy:

1) Use Winchester 209 or Federal 209A primers

2) Use 41.3 grains of XMP-5744 (that is the Lee 3.1 CC powder dipper volume) OR 45.2 grains (Lee 3.4 CC powder dipper). (41.3 gr. to start).

3) You DO NOT need special sabots or bullets. Current formulation MMP sabots are already supplied with 260 gr. Winchester 260 gr. 45 / 50 Platinum Tips, 250 grain .45 / 50 Hornady SST's, PR Bullet .40 / 50 240 gr. Dead Centers, .45 / 50 300 gr. Dead Centers, 340 gr. .45 / 50 Dead Centers. That 41.3 gr. XMP-5744 powder charge has already given me BETTER than 1-1/4" groups at 100 yards with all the above.

Every single one of these loads has far more energy and trajectory to confidently, cleanly harvest any deer-sized animal out to 185 yards assuming a 6" kill zone. All this, with only that 41.3 gr. XMP-5744 load that has NEVER failed to ignite for me, is soft shooting, and puts in excess of 1100 foot pounds of energy into your animal at 185 yards with no hold over, no hassle, no problems.

It is just THAT easy, and that takes care of 98% + common muzzleloading hunting situations. For many, 100% of ALL hunting scenarios. Pick the bullet that groups the best for you, and go have fun. Better yet, let's go hunting!

The only reason to make it harder than that, is if you really want to. I do not believe most people want to, seek to, or need to. It really IS just that easy. I'm delighted to mention this, because that is just the way it is. :grin:  :grin:  :grin:

Offline Roger_Dailey

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« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2004, 05:02:07 AM »
Quote from: big6x6
"Did you see this link over on Tobys site?"

Yes I did.  My jaw dropped when I read what he is doing.  
1.  Nosler #4 pg. 21.
    1.  NEVER mix powders of different kinds.

2.  Speer #13 pg. 62.
    17.  NEVER MIX PROPELLANTS.  Blending powders to get a particular
           performance level is extremely hazardous.  Stick with standard  
           commerical propellants.

NOT a safe practice.

   
   Mixing and blending powders isn't the same thing as duplex loads.  

   Duplex loads are just a way of making a load specific progressive burn rate.  Sort of like building a fire with a match, tinder, kindling and fire wood.

    I seem to remember the early form of the 454 Casull being based on duplex loads.  Hodgdon suggests a duplex load when using Pyrodex in a flintlock (a few grains of black powder followed by the main charge of Pyrodex).  

YMMV

Offline RandyWakeman

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« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2004, 07:01:05 AM »
For dealers, Williams Shooters Supply in Quincy recently received some of the Savage 10ML-II muzzleloaders with the AccuTrigger.

Offline bgjohn

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Re: Still trying to track down an Accu Trigger Savage...
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2004, 07:06:51 AM »
Quote from: big6x6
Obviously the economy is TOO good because dealers only want to go to as little trouble as possible..  I've gotten every excuse you can imagine.  I'm still not finding any Accu Trigger Savages...


My distributor has 5 of them. The picture shows it with the accutrigger but there wasn't any text description. I'd have to call to verify. It was Stainless Steel, 50 cal. I hope that helps.
JM
I know nothing. I am only a messenger.

Offline RandyWakeman

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« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2004, 11:03:17 AM »
Quote from: Roger_Dailey

   Mixing and blending powders isn't the same thing as duplex loads.  


Roger,

I could not possibly disagree more-- of course it is. You will not find a single major smokeless powder manufacturer that allows it, publishes recipes including it-- much less advocates it. That is not a coincidence.

A primer change, a sabot change, a case variation (meaning bore variations, powder column height in a 10ML) all change pressures, and ballistics- much less more obvious things like bullet weights, types, and bearing surfaces.

In the early days of smokeless, there were very few powders to choose from. As a result, there were several series of tests that used layered loads of diverse powders-- with combustible discs used to prevent powder co-mingling. Today, however, we have 150 + different powders to choose from, and that is no longer an issue.

For most hunters, it is a completely unnecessary and extra step that adds nothing in the real-world as to the effective, quick humane harvesting of game.

An already established load is 48 grains of 5744 pushing a 260 gr. Winchester 260 gr. Platinum Tip at 2235 fps. The BC is .200, established at Olin's own internal Doppler radar range. That's 1360 fpe into your animal at 200 yards. What is lacking for 99% of hunting applications?

Offline Roger_Dailey

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« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2004, 12:16:00 PM »
Quote from: RandyWakeman
Quote from: Roger_Dailey

   Mixing and blending powders isn't the same thing as duplex loads.  


Roger,

I could not possibly disagree more-- of course it is. You will not find a single major smokeless powder manufacturer that allows it, publishes recipes including it-- much less advocates it. That is not a coincidence.

A primer change, a sabot change, a case variation (meaning bore variations, powder column height in a 10ML) all change pressures, and ballistics- much less more obvious things like bullet weights, types, and bearing surfaces.

In the early days of smokeless, there were very few powders to choose from. As a result, there were several series of tests that used layered loads of diverse powders-- with combustible discs used to prevent powder co-mingling. Today, however, we have 150 + different powders to choose from, and that is no longer an issue.

For most hunters, it is a completely unnecessary and extra step that adds nothing in the real-world as to the effective, quick humane harvesting of game.

An already established load is 48 grains of 5744 pushing a 260 gr. Winchester 260 gr. Platinum Tip at 2235 fps. The BC is .200, established at Olin's own internal Doppler radar range. That's 1360 fpe into your animal at 200 yards. What is lacking for 99% of hunting applications?


  Can't disagree more?  Sure you can, I have confidence in you!  

   When I see or use the term duplex; it means two distinct areas.  For example a duplex house.  Mix and blend are just that; mixed and blended.  Throw two powders in a jar and shake it up, they are mixed/blended.  Pour a jar half full of one one powder and then fill it with another powder and you have a "duplex".    

  Now for the rest of the story;  I fear that you have me confused with someone promoting duplex loads.  That's just not true!  The only duplex loads I've ever used are those suggested by Hodgdon.  

Take care, have fun....

Offline woodseye

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« Reply #24 on: January 30, 2004, 12:17:41 PM »
OK..........I've removed that nasty old duplex link.......lets all take a moment to relax. Now, Chuck what gun did you get? Did Gary give you a good deal?  :roll:

Yes Randy, they work good with middle of the road milder loads and they're good for quite a bit better if you so desire. I prefer something in the 2400-2500fps area which is where the Savage comes into its own for me and my use  :D .

I believe where pressure and unsafe loads come into play with the Savage is when you choose to not use sabots. They are the "safety valve" and why some have loaded multiple powder loads with multiple bullets on top each other(also not recommended in any loading manuals) and fired it with no ill effects. The sabot blows out and releases the chamber pressure long before it exceeds the action and barrel safety levels  :eek: . Those that don't agree with that or with the strength of the Savage, don't try hot or duplex loads........its that simple. Quite a bit of the load experimentation with the Savage is unchartered territory as they are a new frontier in load development.

Not a big deal........as Randy points out above, some are into a simple easy to shoot accurate load and some are experimenting with new techniques. The sub-bases will probably allow most to load as hot as they desire without resorting to any other methods  :shock: .

I guess for me I find shooting a duplex load under a sabot in the Savage far less adventurous than a 150gr load of triple 7 behind a heavy conical in a BPI or Traditions. But thats a different can of worms  :wink:
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Offline RandyWakeman

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« Reply #25 on: January 30, 2004, 01:34:45 PM »
Quote
 Can't disagree more?  Sure you can, I have confidence in you!  


Thank you, Roger-- for a moment I had thought you lost all faith in me. :cry:

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« Reply #26 on: January 30, 2004, 01:47:59 PM »
Quote from: woodseye
I prefer something in the 2400-2500fps area which is where the Savage comes into its own for me and my use  :D .



Ones of the oldest standard Savage book loads is 44.5 gr. VihtaVouri N110 pushing a 250 gr. XTP / SST, yielding 2368 fps, with a muzzle energy of 3,100 fpe.

If that recoil level is insufficient for your needs, and that wimpy load is deemed insufficient for your game, sub in a 300 gr. SST, same powder, also a Savage book load. That will a couple hundred extra foot pounds of muzzle energy, and insure your ethical polar bear harvest.

Offline big6x6

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« Reply #27 on: January 30, 2004, 01:51:19 PM »
Roger,
If powder "A" is touching powder "B" then the propellants are mixed/blended, it's as simple as that.  It shouldn't be done, it's as simple as that.

Woods,
The rifle shipped yesterday.  It is a stainless/laminated Accutrigger.  Winks surprised me and shipped it three day Fed Ex.  I'll have it Tuesday hopefully.  

I suppose I'll put a Zeiss Conquest 3-9 OR 3.5-10 on it
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Offline RandyWakeman

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« Reply #28 on: January 30, 2004, 01:57:08 PM »
Quote from: big6x6

I suppose I'll put a Zeiss Conquest 3-9 OR 3.5-10 on it


Woodseye, I suspect, will not strongly object to that.

 :lol:  :eek:  :lol:

Offline Underclocked

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Still trying to track down an Accu Trigger
« Reply #29 on: January 30, 2004, 03:42:10 PM »
So Chuck, what have you got for sale?  ;)
WHUT?