Author Topic: Military board wants Marine dismissed.  (Read 928 times)

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Offline powderman

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Military board wants Marine dismissed.
« on: April 07, 2012, 04:09:32 AM »
http://www.wave3.com/story/17348416/military-board-says-marine-should-be-dismissed
 
 
He criticised obummer on facebook, his time would have been up in 4 mo, a 9 year veteran. POWDERMAN. :o :o
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Offline Shu

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Re: Military board wants Marine dismissed.
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2012, 06:04:33 AM »
Unfortunately the board is right on this one. The chain of command has to be protected and everyone in the military must have faith in that chain or it is useless. The Sgt should merely have waited until he was discharged to make his statements. I am sure there are many who agree with him but know you can't speak out like this. There is a time, place and procedure to speak out against the chain of command. He should of known this.  General Mchrystal was fired for this also. Insubordination cannot be tolerated in the military. (Regardless of how right the Sgt was with his Jackass poster it still violates the Uniform Code of Military Justice)
 
His statement he refused to obey unlawful orders might seem strange to some but no one has to obey an unlawful order. Yes, there are lawful orders that must be obeyed also.
 
Example of an unlawful order would be ordering a troop to attend a church service, or ordering  him to vote for a certain candidate.
 
 

Offline james

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Re: Military board wants Marine dismissed.
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2012, 06:30:42 AM »
Its a shame the support, respect and honor are not reciprocal to all parties.

Offline yellowtail3

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Re: Military board wants Marine dismissed.
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2012, 11:15:09 AM »
http://www.wave3.com/story/17348416/military-board-says-marine-should-be-dismissed
He criticised obummer on facebook, his time would have been up in 4 mo, a 9 year veteran. POWDERMAN. :o :o
He'll now have an opportunity to work his new Political Consultant gig... maybe some Tea Bagger/Birther bunch will hire him.
Jesus said we should treat other as we'd want to be treated... and he didn't qualify that by their party affiliation, race, or even if they're of diff religion.

Offline teamnelson

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Re: Military board wants Marine dismissed.
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2012, 11:30:51 AM »
Unfortunately the board is right on this one. The chain of command has to be protected and everyone in the military must have faith in that chain or it is useless. The Sgt should merely have waited until he was discharged to make his statements. I am sure there are many who agree with him but know you can't speak out like this. There is a time, place and procedure to speak out against the chain of command. He should of known this.  General Mchrystal was fired for this also. Insubordination cannot be tolerated in the military. (Regardless of how right the Sgt was with his Jackass poster it still violates the Uniform Code of Military Justice)
 
His statement he refused to obey unlawful orders might seem strange to some but no one has to obey an unlawful order. Yes, there are lawful orders that must be obeyed also.
 
Example of an unlawful order would be ordering a troop to attend a church service, or ordering  him to vote for a certain candidate.

Odd how language creeps over time ...

The board isn't "right", it's "correct" in that the current political climate interprets UCMJ differently than previous ones. FWIW, he cannot be charged with Article 88, as he is not an officer. Nor can he be charged with insubordination as you declared him, as he did not in fact disobey a direct order or display any insubordinate behavior. Making statements is not insubordination. Making a statement that he will not obey unlawful orders is actually a positive restatement of truth, not a negative statement of insubordination. The board may really really want to make those stick, but y'all should pay close attention to the charges that he will be actually given as opposed to all the speculation going on. He did not make any statements from his formal position as a Non Commissioned Officer - they were all private statements. Neither did he make them in uniform, or present his view as representative of the service. He also complied with an unlawful order to withdraw from Social Media pending rules review, and was found not in violation of those rules. They are currently putting a new policy in place that will make it a lawful order in the future, but its not now. No, the JAG is going to have their hands full ... so many ignorant folks in the public swinging the old saw of good order and discipline. They would have to demonstrate that his statements actually produced a real tangible effect on good order and discipline to make that stick. He'd be wise to request a courts martial.

Contrast this with the Marine who did a commercial porn film while wearing parts of the uniform. A board wanted him kicked out as well, and he was not, the argument being that he at no time wore a complete uniform nor made any indication that his behavior was condoned by the Military, and there was no tangible evidence that his participation undermined good order and discipline.
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Offline teamnelson

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Re: Military board wants Marine dismissed.
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2012, 11:31:50 AM »
http://www.wave3.com/story/17348416/military-board-says-marine-should-be-dismissed
He criticised obummer on facebook, his time would have been up in 4 mo, a 9 year veteran. POWDERMAN. :o :o
He'll now have an opportunity to work his new Political Consultant gig... maybe some ... Birther bunch will hire him.

I doubt the Clinton's would want to hire him, but that would be a great gig.
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Offline powderman

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Re: Military board wants Marine dismissed.
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2012, 04:35:10 PM »
Quote
I doubt the Clinton's would want to hire him, but that would be a great gig.

 
Heck no, they wouldn't want anybody around who speaks the truth. POWDERMAN.  :o :o
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

Only half the people leave an abortion clinic alive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAiOEV0v2RM
What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
I learned everything about islam I need to know on 9-11-01.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDqmy1cSqgo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u9kieqGppE&feature=related
http://www.illinois.gov/gov/contactthegovernor.cfm

Offline Shu

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Re: Military board wants Marine dismissed.
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2012, 06:14:26 AM »
Team Nelson,
Thanks for piping in and taking time to teach a lesson or two.
Word creep  does happen over time, I was unaware that right and correct are really that different. I will pay more attention to wording in the future. Right is not always correct.
I am not sure how making negative statements of those above you promote good order and discipline, again my ignorance is showing. I had guessed with a few Marines in the news lately, the Corps would like to stay out of the media for awhile. Flying back into the media gunsites I am sure raised a few eyebrows up the chain.
I do know the Sgt posted on his face book the statements were his own and not that of the Marine Corps. That could be his saving grace, I am not really sure. The rest of what he is charged with and all the other details may not actually be disclosed by the media. You being an insider would know more. I can only guess as to the rest of the story. We all know if it's in the news it is the absolute truth and all facts are included.
Personally I feel the Marine has an opinion and he can voice it. I just think he should have waited until he was discharged before making it.
Requesting the court martial may be the best way to not recieve the other than honorable discharge.I certainly do not believe  him recieving that would be right or correct. I think it is over board. An other than honorable may not be a big deal to some but it is to me.
Again TeamNelson thank you for the lessons and taking time to point out a few things.
 

Offline sc1911cwp

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Re: Military board wants Marine dismissed.
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2012, 11:54:22 AM »
His behavior is what the action taken is about, not his political beliefs. Marines know the difference.
Granddaddy told me Lincoln was a Republican and look what he did to the South.

Offline Sourdough

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Re: Military board wants Marine dismissed.
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2012, 12:28:01 PM »
He violated the UCMJ, he's out.  Rightly so.
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Offline teamnelson

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Re: Military board wants Marine dismissed.
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2012, 12:42:28 PM »
He violated the UCMJ, he's out.  Rightly so.

That's the issue here ... he in fact HAS NOT violated the UCMJ. Despite the alarming headlines, he has not met the legal requirement for insubordination, nor can an NCO be charged with disparaging comments about the President. And any attempt of the prosecution to prove that his posts on FB directly undermined the chain of command would be laughed out of court.

An administrative board was set up, not an Article 32 hearing, because there are no UCMJ charges to capture this. He is not going to NJP or Courts Martial because his "behavior" has no provisions against it. The policy on social media is too vague to even charge him with disobeying a direct order.

The power of an administrative separation board, vs an Article 32 investigation, is that they can release him simply on the needs of the Marine Corps without finding guilt. The media will of course villify him/demonize him based on slander. Were he in fact guilty of a UCMJ chargeable offense, that would've been over already unless he requested a Courts Martial.

Again, no chargeable offenses have been identified under UCMJ in this case.

Was he stupid to do it in this political age? Yep. Will he most likely be put out over it? Yep. BUT it will not be under other than honorable conditions based on all the evidence rendered so far.
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Offline yellowtail3

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Re: Military board wants Marine dismissed.
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2012, 02:24:48 PM »
The policy on social media is too vague to even charge him with disobeying a direct order.
Well, then, they need to clarify things.
 
Quote
The power of an administrative separation board, vs an Article 32 investigation, is that they can release him simply on the needs of the Marine Corps without finding guilt. ....Again, no chargeable offenses have been identified under UCMJ in this case.
well that kind of sucks and makes me vaguely uneasy
Quote
Was he stupid to do it in this political age? Yep. Will he most likely be put out over it? Yep. BUT it will not be under other than honorable conditions based on all the evidence rendered so far.
I"ve not followed it, but if he was counseled to knock it off, and didn't, he bought his own trouble. Perhaps he wanted to be a hero.
Jesus said we should treat other as we'd want to be treated... and he didn't qualify that by their party affiliation, race, or even if they're of diff religion.

Offline teamnelson

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Re: Military board wants Marine dismissed.
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2012, 02:59:07 PM »
He was given an order with no basis in law or policy, which is by definition unlawful. I cannot arbitrarily command someone to do anything outside of regulation regardless of how much my personal interpretation may powerfully influence me. He did comply for a period of time waiting clarification or release of new policy, got tired of waiting and returned to his previous posting.

The admin boards are in full swing these days. ERB is the new tool of the Office of Manpower and Budget to undermine the chain of command by designating individuals for separation without command input or oversight. PTS is a command driven admin process designed to let go the chaff ... but since it cannot be punitive (i.e. NJP or Courts Martial) it can actually be arbitrary to the whim of the convening board although you'd like to think not. In the case of this Sgt, an Admin Board met with the power to recommend separation to the chain of command. They ought to be careful making statements that it was in reference to his FB activity because unless he has already faced punitive charges in that case, they could be sued for using speculation as grounds for the recommendation. In fact, he may have requested the Admin Board himself as they are currently offering early release for servicemembers seeking to attend college upon separation. There has been no evidence to factually link the meeting of the board with the FB activity, so far its all been conjecture on the part of the media. And the content of the admin board is covered under Confidentiality and is considered protected personal information.

There is alot of PC activism in the ranks today, as well as on the Internet. I'm still cheering for the rule of law as per my oath.
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Offline Shu

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Re: Military board wants Marine dismissed.
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2012, 02:01:42 AM »
TeamNelson,
Thanks for pointing out more facts in this. The media definitely has a bias and we don't get to hear all the facts etc.
With what you are saying the Marine is definitely guilty of "bad timing". Which I don't think is covered by the UCMJ or any other codified law.
It is looking more like the chain of command is letting this Marine down. Vague policies and political whims are fine examples of poor leadership. Just my take on things.

Offline Sourdough

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Re: Military board wants Marine dismissed.
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2012, 06:25:27 AM »
Team Nelson:  I'm not an attourney, but I know several.  The ones I discussed this with are Military Lawers, working for JAG.  They all said the same thing I said earlier.  That he did violate the UCMJ.  That is what I am going on.
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Offline teamnelson

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Re: Military board wants Marine dismissed.
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2012, 02:14:22 PM »
Team Nelson:  I'm not an attourney, but I know several.  The ones I discussed this with are Military Lawers, working for JAG.  They all said the same thing I said earlier.  That he did violate the UCMJ.  That is what I am going on.

Sourdough, I'm still active duty, and I'm not hearing what you're hearing, and I'm a staff officer with a close working relationship with JAG. The fact remains, it was publicized as an Administrative Board, not an Article 32 hearing. Their recommendation does in fact go to the Flag level for signature, however without a disciplinary action, their recommendation for an OTH discharge is just a statement. The scope of their power is to simply recommend he be released from active duty; status of discharge is not in their scope, nor in the General's unless he determines an Article 32 hearing is in order. As of yet, no charges have been specified under UCMJ. The media appears to not understand Military disciplinary proceedings, which is expected.

One liberal has said that he doesn't want Sgt Stein to go to Leavenworth, but a Bad Conduct Discharge would suffice. This is ignorance; the BCD is given after confinement for punitive charges is completed. The same liberal notes that Sgt Stein did not violate any articles of the UCMJ, citing experts on military law. The same liberal noted that honorable discharges are only given to those who serve honorably, and he doesn't feel Sgt Stein deserves that. However, as anyone in the military knows, the honorable discharge is automatic unless the member had been found guilty at an Article 15 or NJP proceeding (or higher).

If the General calls an Article 32 hearing, and subsequently calls for Sgt Stein to face a Courts Martial, then I'll shut up and color. Hasn't happened yet.
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Offline clum sum

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Re: Military board wants Marine dismissed.
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2012, 02:35:43 PM »
You have no private  life in the military, You are on the payroll 24-7. You can disobay an illegal order but you can't call the boss an ass. Like it or not OB is the the Comander and Chief.
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Offline teamnelson

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Re: Military board wants Marine dismissed.
« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2012, 02:53:28 PM »
You have no private  life in the military, You are on the payroll 24-7. You can disobay an illegal order but you can't call the boss an ass. Like it or not OB is the the Comander and Chief.

Not entirely true but mostly true. Were it entirely true, then I would not be allowed to vote or participate in political discussion. I am only prohibited from participating in a manner that can be understood as if I am speaking on behalf of the military.

By the way, just to add a little clarity to the case. The Sgt was facing an admin separation board because he had racked up debts and was no longer eligible to maintain a security clearance, which means he lost his MOS. This process happens all the time in the military. Having lost his MOS, and being a 9 year Sgt, the chances of him picking up another are slim. The purpose of the board was to determine whether or not he should be offered the opportunity to try for another MOS, or simply be let go. I've been witness to several such boards, and counseled numerous servicemembers who've been recommended for separation as a result. Its clear that Sgt Stein was already on the path to separation due to inability to retain an MOS.
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Offline Shu

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Re: Military board wants Marine dismissed.
« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2012, 05:27:52 AM »
Discussions about UCMJ, good order and discipline, first ammendment rights etc are a waste in this case. It starts with the news media reporting misleading things about facebook. Finally after several days and many posts later we have yet another service member in debt over his head. Which is not as uncommon as you would think. No news here other than facts being with held.
 Would it really be news worthy to say "Another service member being seperated for to much debt"?
Would it have been to much to say, "guys this soldier is getting media hype for the wrong reasons. He is being seperated for too much debt"?

Offline teamnelson

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Re: Military board wants Marine dismissed.
« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2012, 10:11:11 AM »
Turns out I work with a friend of Sgt Stein's defense counsel, who in turn has been very vocal on his own FB regarding this case.

He has confirmed that Sgt Stein was up for Administrative Separation due to his inability to maintain his MOS, having lost his security clearance as a result of his financial problems. While it is non-punitive, servicemembers with over 6 years are authorized counsel when facing those proceedings, which he opted for. The decision to separate was part one, and they determined in favor of his separation. Part two was recommending status of separation. In the absence of NJP proceedings or Courts Martial, they can only recommend Honorable, General or General under Other Than Honorable condition. The latter is rarely used, and when used, the board members can be vetted by the defense counsel to determine bias. To use an extreme example, if all 3 members of the board were card carrying Black Panthers members, and he's a Tea Party activist, bias would be assumed, and another board would be requested. So far, the defense has not advised Sgt Stein to contest the board.

The contest is over the recommendation for OTH characterization, which will effect his ability to receive VA benefits. He has reenlisted, which means he has an honorable discharge on record already. He also has Good Conduct on record, and appropriate awards, for the duration of his service. The debate is solely over whether or not his internet participation can be used to determine OTH characterization. Again, since this is entirely administrative, the General alone has final determination. In the absence of an actual NJP or Courts Martial, it would be a brave General indeed (or activist) that would set such a precedent. He'd be literally assuming the voice of the DOD to condemn this Sgts actions, without the full backing of a judicial process.
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Offline Shu

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Re: Military board wants Marine dismissed.
« Reply #20 on: April 12, 2012, 12:50:33 PM »
TeamNelson,
Thanks!! Everything would have been avoided if the Sgt paid his bills.