Author Topic: Great Northern Guns VS BATF  (Read 1321 times)

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Offline AkMike1

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Great Northern Guns VS BATF
« on: April 07, 2012, 06:03:14 PM »
Breaking information sent to this reporter moments ago via email from a contact in Anchorage, Alaska indicates that a local gun store has refused to comply with an order from the ATF to turn over to the agency the official 'Bound Book' that firearms retailers are required to keep on site on customers and their purchases, photo I.D.s, and background checks.

The store's refusal has provoked a confrontation with the ATF, which claims that the Bound Book is 'their property.'

An initial report was published here yesterday concerning this new illegal activity on the part of the ATF.

According to a memo from the Anchorage Second Amendment Task Force, the Great Northern Guns store in Anchorage was asked to give their Bound Book to the ATF so it could be copied in its totality. The store refused, citing their legal rights and the fact that to do so would be a violation of the Firearms Owners Protection Act of 1986.




The Task Force began to make inquiries about the ATF's request and was told by a local agency official that the Bound Book is the property of the ATF and can be picked up anytime they choose.

But the law appears to say something entirely different.

While it is true that the ATF can gain access to the book, there are specific stipulations concerning the circumstances that would warrant such a request. The law prevents any government agency, including ATF, from taking possession of the entire record of purchases. The agency can, however, gain access to certain specific records under the following three stipulations--there is an ongoing criminal investigation of a customer, there is an annual on site inspection of the store's records, or there is a need to trace a specific firearm in the midst of an ongoing investigation.

From the Anchorage Second Amendment Task Force Newsletter:

Provisions Of The Firearms Owners Protection Act of 1986:

Inspection and Acquisition of Licensee Records



The Gun Control Act required licensees to maintain records of firearm acquisitions, dispositions, and inventories. Furthermore, it permitted warrantless inspection of these "at all reasonable times," and broadly authorized the Secretary to require submission of reports on the records' content.



FOPA establishes significant restrictions on the two latter powers. In general, administrative inspections of licensee records now require a magistrate's warrant, based on a showing of reasonable cause to believe evidence of a violation may be found.



Three exceptions, however, nearly swallow this rule. Neither warrant nor reasonable cause is needed for (1) a reasonable inquiry in the course of a criminal investigation of a person other than the licensee; (2) an annual inspection for ensuring compliance with record keeping requirements; or (3) tracing a firearm in the course of a bona fide criminal investigation. While these sizably reduce application of the warrant and cause requirement, it remains effective for its primary purpose in any event: to prevent inspections undertaken without immediate law enforcement need, or abused for the purpose of harassment.



FOPA also institutes some measures designed to minimize the harassment potential of an otherwise authorized inspection or search. Only records material to a violation of law may be seized and even as to these, copies must be furnished the licensee within a reasonable time. The unusual appearance of the last protection vanishes upon reflection; because a licensee is legally bound to buy and sell only upon recordation, removal of his records is more than an inconvenience.

The power of the Secretary to acquire licensee records is likewise limited by FOPA.

Requirements to (1) submit records upon going out of business, (2) submit a report upon sale of more than one handgun to the same person during the same week and (3) submit reports of sales when ordered to do so by the Secretary, are enacted into law.



Conversely, the Secretary is forbidden to require submission of reports "except as expressly required by this section." Paralleling this prohibition is the proviso that no future regulation may require that any records required by the Act "be recorded at or transferred to a facility owned, managed, or controlled by the United States or any state or any political subdivision thereof, nor that any system of registration of firearms, firearms owners, or firearms transactions or dispositions be established."



The problem with the ATF's request is that it has not specified any of these stipulations justifying its demand for the entire Bound Book.



This led the Second Amendment Task Force to question the agency's motives, even to the point of suspecting that the action is some sort of de facto registration scheme being conducted by the Obama Administration. An agent who was contacted by the Task Force would not provide any information on the request other than to say the directive came 'from on high.'



The Task Force interpreted that to mean the Seattle Field Division. The Task Force has also initiated inquiries into firearms dealers in other states to ascertain if the ATF directive is broad based or confined to Alaska.


Continue reading on Examiner.com Breaking: confrontation between Alaska gun store and ATF - National Conservative | Examiner.com http://www.examiner.com/conservative...#ixzz1rPAkld8E  __________________
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Offline Dand

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Re: Great Northern Guns VS BATF
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2012, 10:12:36 PM »
Wow BIG news!  And GNG is my favorite gun store in Anchorage. Try to stop in whenever I'm in Anchorage.  They also have a lot of lawyer friends and this could get really interesting.  I sure hope they have been operating clean so can fight this from a strong position. Of course there are lots of pitfalls in their way.  Only one dumb clerk or some wily criminals could make it hard on them.  Something to watch closely.  Thanks


this should be posted in the Second Amendment Forum too or instead!
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liberal Justice Hugo Black said, and I quote: "There are 'absolutes' in our Bill of Rights, and they were put there on purpose by men who knew what words meant and meant their prohibitions to be 'absolutes.'" End quote. From a recent article by Wayne LaPierre NRA

Offline corbanzo

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Great Northern Guns VS BATF
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2012, 12:11:31 PM »
It is illegal for the ATF to maintain any gun records. If this book ends up in ATF hands, and I sue the ATF for possession of my records under1986, siting they hold my gun purchase records from gng and neither I nor my guns are under any type of investigation, where does it go from there? There are a lot of names in that book. Thats a lot of times the ATF is breaking constitutional law.
"At least with a gun that big, if you miss and hit the rocks in front of him it'll stone him to death..."

Offline Dand

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Re: Great Northern Guns VS BATF
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2012, 05:27:04 PM »
Depending on how far back they go, my name might be in that book.


I wonder where this issue is now?


I don't like govt intimidating decent businesses.



NRA Life

liberal Justice Hugo Black said, and I quote: "There are 'absolutes' in our Bill of Rights, and they were put there on purpose by men who knew what words meant and meant their prohibitions to be 'absolutes.'" End quote. From a recent article by Wayne LaPierre NRA

Offline corbanzo

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Re: Great Northern Guns VS BATF
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2012, 08:05:29 PM »
Well with GNG I'm sure by book, they are talking about many bound volumes of transfer records for the life of the store, there is not just one book.  As far as I know, they are supposed to keep records of all firearm purchases, not sure if there is a date at which those records can be purged - not that I know of.


The idea being that the federal government shall never know where any gun owners are and what they have - as to never be able to use this information for tyrannical purposes. 


I am in support of keeping these records at the gun shop for only criminal investigative purposes, and understand that the BATF needs to be able to make sure these records are current, but in no way should they be able to hold mass records, only specific records under investigation.  This is the same reason that the FBI has .. is it 24 or 48 hours?  To destroy any record of an application for a firearm purchase for an individual when a background check is performed. 
"At least with a gun that big, if you miss and hit the rocks in front of him it'll stone him to death..."

Offline Sourdough

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Re: Great Northern Guns VS BATF
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2012, 08:45:11 AM »
My name is in that book many times. 
Where is old Joe when we really need him?  Alaska Independence    Calling Illegal Immigrants "Undocumented Aliens" is like calling Drug Dealers "Unlicensed Pharmacists"
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Great Northern Guns VS BATF
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2012, 09:11:21 AM »
so how many more gun stores are being ask to turn over records ? when a store closes the records are sent to the atf what do they do with them ?
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