State's affidavit for probable cause in Martin/Zimmerman case

[yellowtail3]

Took a quick look at the affidavit state submitted in this case - here it is: http://media.trb.com/media/acrobat/2012-04/69353440.pdf
 
I took speshul note of the last paragraph in this affidavit the state presented for probable cause:

"The facts mentioned in this affidavit are not a complete recitation of all the pertinent facts and evidence in this case but only are presented for a determination of Probable Cause for Second Degree Murder"

I've run that through Google's Legalese Translator, and it gave two renderings:
1. "We'd like a ham sandwich, please!"
and
2. "We're leaving out all the stuff which undermines our request for a ham sandwich!"

which is it?

[Sourdough]

Like I said before, I think this prosacutor came in with the intent to make a charge, and have Zimmerman arrested.  Why did she not sent this case before a Grand Jury?  that is what a Grand Jury is for, unless you are trying to bring charges where they are not warranted.  Or you know or are afraid a grand Jury would not bring forth charges.

When I heard she was not going to send this case to a Grand Jury, My gut told me she would bring forth charges.  I just was not expecting 2nd degree murder.

[leadbutt]

Has been posted else where and I have been told that in Florida any thing other than 1st degree doesn't have to be brought before the Grand Jury,, friends down that way stated that as soon as they saw she wasn't going the GJ route they knew a stepped down charge was coming, she wasn't going to let him walk

[yellowtail3]

I've zero doubt that the intent of the prosecutor is to force Z to plead to manslaughter. I've been through the federal wringer, and that  is how they work: charge you with th outrageous - but you might get convicted - then offer a plea. Then, they can call it a win.
 
If the case is as it appears, I hope he doesn't take it. He'll be tempted, with good reason. But if the facts are on his side, hang tough. Easy for me to say, though; my life isn't the one at stake in this racial/political circus the case has become.

[ironglow]

Like I said before, I think this prosacutor came in with the intent to make a charge, and have Zimmerman arrested.  Why did she not sent this case before a Grand Jury?  that is what a Grand Jury is for, unless you are trying to bring charges where they are not warranted.  Or you know or are afraid a grand Jury would not bring forth charges.

When I heard she was not going to send this case to a Grand Jury, My gut told me she would bring forth charges.  I just was not expecting 2nd degree murder.

0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
   
   That's what it sounds like to me too, Sourdough.  When the former lawyers for "Z" said he was talking to the prosecutor but not to them...I wondered if he needed a trip to the psych ward instead.
  Some time ago YT posted an article which said ..if you are detained/arrested.. the police and prosecutors are not your "friends".  Although I have never been arrested or detained, I believe him from what I have seen done to a youth a few years ago, who being innocent, TOLD THE TRUTH..and his own words were used to frame him..while others lied and walked..
   They are not a "friend".. clam up and call your attorney.
 
  Incidently, Trayvon's mother seems to be one of the few involved, who is thus far, acting like an adult...

[yellowtail3]

That's what it sounds like to me too, Sourdough.  When the former lawyers for "Z" said he was talking to the prosecutor but not to them...I wondered if he needed a trip to the psych ward instead.

I believe I can speak to this from experience: Z had the feeling that if he could just TELL THEM WHAT HAPPENED - and if they'd listen - the prosecutor would roll her eyes, and say something like, "Okay, gotcha... I understand what happened. This make more sense now..." and let him off the hook. I had that very same feeling once, before I got edumacated as to the nature of our 'system', to whit: THE PROSECUTOR DOESN'T GIVE A ---- ABOUT WHAT IS TRUE OR FALSE, IT'S ABOUT OBTAINING A VERDICT AND GETTING A WIN. In this particular case... that was her de facto directive from the Guv.

Incidently, Trayvon's mother seems to be one of the few involved, who is thus far, acting like an adult...

Yep... and shortly after she was caught on camera being adult-like and sincere, one of her advisors advised her to the CAN IT, lest she undermine the narrative.
 
Can't help but feel badly for her.

[ironglow]

That's what it sounds like to me too, Sourdough.  When the former lawyers for "Z" said he was talking to the prosecutor but not to them...I wondered if he needed a trip to the psych ward instead.

I believe I can speak to this from experience: Z had the feeling that if he could just TELL THEM WHAT HAPPENED - and if they'd listen - the prosecutor would roll her eyes, and say something like, "Okay, gotcha... I understand what happened. This make more sense now..." and let him off the hook. I had that very same feeling once, before I got edumacated as to the nature of our 'system', to whit: THE PROSECUTOR DOESN'T GIVE A ---- ABOUT WHAT IS TRUE OR FALSE, IT'S ABOUT OBTAINING A VERDICT AND GETTING A WIN. In this particular case... that was her de facto directive from the Guv.

Incidently, Trayvon's mother seems to be one of the few involved, who is thus far, acting like an adult...

Yep... and shortly after she was caught on camera being adult-like and sincere, one of her advisors advised her to the CAN IT, lest she undermine the narrative.
 
Can't help but feel badly for her.

ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
 
  I have to agree with both points..
 
  I can see "Z" thinking "if I just tell the truth, this will all clear up"..  that is exactly what my young friend thought when he talked with the arresting officer..   IT HAPPENS FOLKS !!

[magooch]

I still think Zimmerman should have split while he had the chance.  The only way he comes out of this better off is if he writes a book, or gets one written for him.

[SwampThing762]

You gotta live in Florida to understand the Florida legal system, and GJs are only required for Murder 1.   Angela Corey is the State Attorney for my district in Florida, and she is one of the few elected State Attorneys who still personally prosecutes cases in court.    She has no political agenda in this case, despite what some media blatherers say to justify their presence.   

Also, to address the remarks from GBO posters that she came with the agenda, or instruction, to file charges -- charges were warranted from the start of this fiasco.   However, the warranted charges are for manslaughter and aggravated battery with a firearm, as I read Florida Statutes.  Murder two is a bit of a stretch, but is likely an SOP filed charge.

Magooch -- GZ would not last as a fugitive on the lam.  The US Marshals Service would have caught him in short order, as they are the ones that go after fugitives.  GZ went into the JSO building in downtown Jacksonville and surrendered to authorities.  The pictures show a look of relief on his face, as he no longer had to worry about hiding or getting killed by some crazy moron.

ST762

[yellowtail3]

Angela Corey is the State Attorney for my district in Florida, and she is one of the few elected State Attorneys who still personally prosecutes cases in court.    She has no political agenda in this case, despite what some media blatherers say to justify their presence.

I thought she was instructed by gov to take the case?
 

Also, to address the remarks from GBO posters that she came with the agenda, or instruction, to file charges -- charges were warranted from the start of this fiasco.   However, the warranted charges are for manslaughter and aggravated battery with a firearm, as I read Florida Statutes.  Murder two is a bit of a stretch, but is likely an SOP filed charge.

And in that stretch, there's your polytics, right there. Or maybe seh really does think he is guilty of Murder two? Naaaah.... this is pressuring for a plea to felony manslaughter, which she probably couldn't prove, either. IMHO, of course, not being a lawyer, but understanding how those prosecutors think.

[SwampThing762]

Angela Corey is the State Attorney for my district in Florida, and she is one of the few elected State Attorneys who still personally prosecutes cases in court.    She has no political agenda in this case, despite what some media blatherers say to justify their presence.

I thought she was instructed by gov to take the case?
 

Also, to address the remarks from GBO posters that she came with the agenda, or instruction, to file charges -- charges were warranted from the start of this fiasco.   However, the warranted charges are for manslaughter and aggravated battery with a firearm, as I read Florida Statutes.  Murder two is a bit of a stretch, but is likely an SOP filed charge.

And in that stretch, there's your polytics, right there. Or maybe seh really does think he is guilty of Murder two? Naaaah.... this is pressuring for a plea to felony manslaughter, which she probably couldn't prove, either. IMHO, of course, not being a lawyer, but understanding how those prosecutors think.

yt3,

AC was appointed to the case when the original SA recused himself.   

I have no politics in this.   Murder two is a bit of a stretch because it is difficult to prove intent.  Manslaughter is the appropritae charge based on my reading of the Florida Statutes.   Aggravated battery with a firearm would be another felony charge that would be easy to prove based on the evidence.

Please get your facts straight, next time.

ST762

[ironglow]

Whatever happens...I just believe that with no grand jury involved, whoever loses will never quit complaining about having be sold out by a DA, rather than judged by a "jury of their peers"..

[BUGEYE]

I seem to remember a Florida jury exonerating a mother who killed her toddler and tossed her body out in the swamp.
too many liberals are getting on juries and releasing criminals.
but in this case, they'll find him guilty regardless......

[m-g Willy]

[: THE PROSECUTOR DOESN'T GIVE A ---- ABOUT WHAT IS TRUE OR FALSE, IT'S ABOUT OBTAINING A VERDICT AND GETTING A WIN. In this particular case... that was her de facto directive from the Guv.

Incidently, Trayvon's mother seems to be one of the few involved, who is thus far, acting like an adult...

Yep... and shortly after she was caught on camera being adult-like and sincere, one of her advisors advised her to the CAN IT, lest she undermine the narrative.
 
.

exactly!

[briarpatch]

Dont know a thing about Florida law all though I live here. I will throw my hat in the ring with YT3 on this one.

[yellowtail3]

Our friend John Lott weighs in on the state's lame affidavit...
 
http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/295984/where-s-probable-cause-john-r-lott-jr

[coyotejoe]

I agree with John Lott's  assessment, the affidavit is pretty weak. What we should bear in mind is that it is not the job of a prosecutor to "see that justice is done". The job of a prosecutor is to prosecute every case to the fullest extent of the law.
She is an elected official and therefore a politician by definition. Of course ever politician has an agenda, at least to be reelected if not to seek higher office. She has stated that public opinion did not affect her decision but, get real, when does a politician not care about public opinion? A judge could still throw the case out but, oops, judges are elected too.

[Cuts Crooked]

My theory...Zimmerman's toast!!!!!!
 
When he talked to the prosecutor, probably trying to get them to "understand", he screwed himself.
 
"Anything you say can and will be used against you."
 
Rule #1. Don't talk to the prosecution
 
Rule #2. Shut the hell up.
 
Rule #3. Volunteer NOTHING! Especially if you are innocent!!!!!!!!
 

[williamlayton]

I still go back to the beginning.
Why in the world did Z assume this kid was up to no good?
He reported it--was told to cease and decist and pressed on. Looks to me like he got what he was asking for--a confrontation.
Blessings

[streak]

I still go back to the beginning.
Why in the world did Z assume this kid was up to no good?
He reported it--was told to cease and decist and pressed on. Looks to me like he got what he was asking for--a confrontation.
Blessings

Not to sure he pressed on!
 If you listen to the audio tape of the police dispatcher, the dispatcher after Z says that he is following this person, the dispatcher tells  Z we don`t need you to do that. Z replies on the tape " OK". Supposedly Z turns an heads back to his vehicle where he is approached by Martin and words are exchanged and the fight ensues.
 
As none of us were there it really is going to boil down to the eye witnesses that were there. This may not even go to trial as both prosecutor and defense attorney have both used the term if and when a trial begans.

[jlwilliams]

Does the affidavit mention something to the effect of: "....we'd like to avoid hosting the next Rodney King style riot event..." anywhere in the doccument?  That is more or less what he's being charged with.  The charge should be First Degree Atraction of Sharpton.

[ironglow]

  " Where did Z assume this kid was "no good ?"
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
   I could be mistaken but I seem to recall Z thought the kid was "up to no good", a slightly different assumption.  Perhaps other accounts were mistaken, but I read some where Z claimed the kid was 'wandering around in the rain'.. which included back yards. i don't want to give Z too much of a pass, but it seems those wounds to the back of his skull could only have come from one of two ways.. either he was unexpectedly attacked from the rear, or he spent some time struggling on his back..just as some witnesses stated...but that is only from what we know now.  It does seem however, that if the prosecutor had the solid case she claims, she would have been happy to go the simpler, "ham sandwich" route and avoid later criticism.
***********************************
 
  The real question is,..  What is Erik Holder and his "justice" dept. doing down there ?   It couldn't be a "civil rights" question, since he wasn't troubled with civil rights when the black Panthers threatened voters..or right there in Sanford..as the Black Panthers place a bounty on the head of Z..wanted  "dead or alive" .
  It can't be because of any firearms violations, since he can't seem to uncover which in his dept are guilty of supplying guns to the drug cartels.
**********************************
 
  John Lott wrote an insightful article.  He featured some of the doubts I have been having;
   http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/295984/where-s-probable-cause-john-r-lott-jr
 
  I am surprised by the totally slanted report of the prosecutor.  She even seemed to "assume" things in favor of the prosecution, while assuming things against the defense...I guess we know why she turned down a grand jury.
 

[yellowtail3]

  John Lott wrote an insightful article.  He featured some of the doubts I have been having;
   http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/295984/where-s-probable-cause-john-r-lott-jr[/quote]

Same link I posted about 9 posts ago... good enough to post a 2nd time, I suppose!
 
 
 

[williamlayton]

  " Where did Z assume this kid was "no good ?"
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
   I could be mistaken but I seem to recall Z thought the kid was "up to no good", a slightly different assumption.  Perhaps other accounts were mistaken, but I read some where Z claimed the kid was 'wandering around in the rain'.. which included back yards. i don't want to give Z too much of a pass, but it seems those wounds to the back of his skull could only have come from one of two ways.. either he was unexpectedly attacked from the rear, or he spent some time struggling on his back..just as some witnesses stated...but that is only from what we know now.  It does seem however, that if the prosecutor had the solid case she claims, she would have been happy to go the simpler, "ham sandwich" route and avoid later criticism.
***********************************
 
  The real question is,..  What is Erik Holder and his "justice" dept. doing down there ?   It couldn't be a "civil rights" question, since he wasn't troubled with civil rights when the black Panthers threatened voters..or right there in Sanford..as the Black Panthers place a bounty on the head of Z..wanted  "dead or alive" .
  It can't be because of any firearms violations, since he can't seem to uncover which in his dept are guilty of supplying guns to the drug cartels.
**********************************
 
  John Lott wrote an insightful article.  He featured some of the doubts I have been having;
   http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/295984/where-s-probable-cause-john-r-lott-jr
 
  I am surprised by the totally slanted report of the prosecutor.  She even seemed to "assume" things in favor of the prosecution, while assuming things against the defense...I guess we know why she turned down a grand jury.
 

HUMMMM--she is the procecutor and she is giving details of why she is filing charges. Seems like she should be convicted that there is a case for felony indictment.
Blessings

[yellowtail3]

Andrew McCarthy weighs in on affidavit weakness  - it's politically driven, he thinks -
 
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/295997/martin-case-affidavit-andrew-c-mccarthy#more
 

I strongly disagree with David French’s analysis. I’m inclined, instead, to agree with commentators ranging from former Reagan Justice Department official Mark Levin to Harvard’s Alan Dershowitz that the affidavit is stunningly weak — “unethical,” as Prof. Dershowitz puts it. In fact, I go further (which, after nearly 20 years of writing and supervising the writing of complaint affidavits, I think I’m qualified to do). This affidavit is not law, it is agitprop: invoking, for example, the explosive term “profiled” but carefully avoiding any discussion of what it means and failing to note that (a) there is no evidence of racial profiling, and (b) absent an invidious racial component there is nothing wrong with profiling (indeed, we want police to do it so that innocent people don’t get hassled).
A few points...:

full article at
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/295997/martin-case-affidavit-andrew-c-mccarthy#more
 

[williamlayton]

I strongly disagree with McCarthy.
The Prosecutor never gives details of evidence when filing charges, just the reasons the charges are filed. Evidence is for a jury.
The first DA to resfuse to handle the charges the police wanted filed may/may not have been obliged to do so for personal reasons--we don't know that yet but it may be presented by testimony in a trial---I would not think so because that is not evidence in the trial of the alleged crime.
If we leave race out of this and talk about two people then we can get closer to feeling that were involved in this confrontation. It was a confrontation folks. One person pressing another.
If either of the two had not wanted a confrontation it would not have happened. One of them did and the other didn't care---I leave this call up to you as to which one was the one who wanted the confrontation.
In most confrontations it ends up with one being afraid and the other one glad of it. This was not the case in this perfect storm.
This, of course, is IMO.
Blessings

[coyotejoe]

I find it strange that the affidavit states that Zimmerman "profiled" Martin, which is not a fact but a conclusion of the investigators and is not a crime in any case.
 It also states that Martin's mother identified he son as the voice calling for help but Zimmerman's father identified his son's voice, as did the eye witness who said the man on the bottom in the red sweater was calling for help. I would think by now the prosecution has had ample time to have the tape analyzed by experts and if the expert analysis confirmed that it was Martin calling for help wouldn't that be the stronger fact to put in the affidavit rather than the mothers obviously biased opinion?
 I think I smell a CYA from the prosecutor. She can say "I did all I could" and wash her hands of the affair. People keep speculating that she has a lot of evidence of which we know not, but I doubt that. Beyond the original investigation by the Sanford police there probably is not much more to be uncovered. We need to remember that "CSI" is a fictional TV program and most of the miracles they pull off are really not possible. I very much doubt the prosecution has anything more than what was presented in the affidavit and that is about zero.

[Swampman]

I still go back to the beginning.
Why in the world did Z assume this kid was up to no good?
He reported it--was told to cease and decist and pressed on. Looks to me like he got what he was asking for--a confrontation.
Blessings

Being stupid isn't against the law.  Zimmerman hasn't broken any laws.  This is all politics.

[williamlayton]

I hope you are right---I fear that it is not so.
Blessings

[gstewart44]

Angela Corey is a smart and successful prosecutor.   That being said, her current job is as an ELECTED OFFICIAL.      I don't think she is playing Dem/Rep, or Conservative/Liberal with these charges.....I think she is being expedient in trying to assure her re-election when it comes around.      If she did not file charges and Z walks away from this,  the Jackson's and Sharptons would be all over her at her next re-election bid.