Author Topic: Do you season the Barrels on your BP firearms??  (Read 3569 times)

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Offline corbanzo

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Re: Do you season the Barrels on your BP firearms??
« Reply #30 on: April 19, 2012, 11:56:31 PM »
This explains Seasoning; pick one,, or all,,
http://www.google.com/search?q=seasoning steel&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GGIH
You can replace the word "steel" above with "Iron" if you choose and pick one/all of those.
 
 What you describe is Nothing like the "seasoning" process linked by any search of the word or term as it applies to steel or firearms.
 
"Seasoning" a barrel is a myth, an olde wives tale,,
 
 Your extended explanation, read by anyone is simply Cleaning and Oiling. You are using Cleaning agents then Gun oil and repeating the process.
 During this extended process you are shooting allot, I would suggest you skip all the extra motions and just shoot allot. If you shoot allot your shooting skills improve, thus the gun shoots better,,
If it's your son's gun that's not shooting well, then He should be the one doing all the shooting practice.
 Not once do you mention too bake, roast, or somehow cook an oil into the steel to "season" it as ALL seasoning processes describe.
 
 I don't know who Mr. Newcomb is, but Mike Nessbit is a paid writer of magazine articles, if he doesn't write an article he doesn't get paid.
I gave up long ago believing everything in magazine articles.






Cook the oil into the steel??  Shootin makes a lot of heat!  I guess I do that with all my guns!  haha.
"At least with a gun that big, if you miss and hit the rocks in front of him it'll stone him to death..."

Offline Rock Home Isle

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Re: Do you season the Barrels on your BP firearms??
« Reply #31 on: April 20, 2012, 04:08:05 AM »
.........
 What you describe is Nothing like the "seasoning" process linked by any search of the word or term as it applies to steel or firearms.
 
"Seasoning" a barrel is a myth, an olde wives tale,,
 
 Your extended explanation, read by anyone is simply Cleaning and Oiling. You are using Cleaning agents then Gun oil and repeating the process.
 During this extended process you are shooting allot, I would suggest you skip all the extra motions and just shoot allot. If you shoot allot your shooting skills improve, thus the gun shoots better,,
If it's your son's gun that's not shooting well, then He should be the one doing all the shooting practice.
 Not once do you mention too bake, roast, or somehow cook an oil into the steel to "season" it as ALL seasoning processes describe.
 
 I don't know who Mr. Newcomb is, but Mike Nessbit is a paid writer of magazine articles, if he doesn't write an article he doesn't get paid.
I gave up long ago believing everything in magazine articles.

Your weak presentation of the definition of the word "Seasoning" is not even applicable to the topic of this thread (Seasoning the Barrel of a Muzzleloader). If your intent is to attack the validity of "seasoning a muzzleloading barrel", attack it at its backbone...find a reputable source that states emphatically that micro-pores in steel and iron as the result of the manufacturing process don't exist; or that treating these micro pores has no effect upon the performance of the barrel; then therefore it will be an easy extension to say that all this money being spent on conditioning or breaking-in modern barrels is not needed and is a waste of time & good money. That would do it in spades.
 
Unfortunately you are missing the point entirely and you are now grasping at minutia (minor meaningless details)...Let me explain my meaning in simple terms by providing an example. Let's say that I dig up a chunk of raw iron out of the earth, heat it up red hot and hammer it and make it into a sword. Then let's say that someone else digs up raw iron-ore, heats the ore up to super high  temperatures to drive off the impurities; then heats the purified iron to red hot and then makes a sword...the end result is still a sword. The two procedures are different, but the end result is the same; in that a functional sword is produced.
 
 
"Your extended explanation, read by anyone is simply Cleaning and Oiling"...you miss the sublties of the process entirely. Its what happens after the gun is cleaned, and what happens at the range that is critical. The oil that I use was designed to be used with corrosive cordite powders. Blackpowder IS a corrosive powder, that is why I use it in my process. Wiping the barrel several times over several days after it has been cleaned, with an oiled patch, serves multiple purposes...I get to see what residues are being displaced by the oil, I'm visually monitoring the seasoning process and I'm introducing more oil into the bore to displace more residue. Then while at the range I clean the bore after each shot for 5 shots..I am introducing oil into a clean system  and then using high temperatures and pressures (Fluid Dynamics) to force the oil into the micro pores of the iron or steel to further displace corrosive powder residues and season the bore. Call it a cleaning process if that is what you comprehend it to be, but realize that there is more happening here than simply cleaning a barrel.
 
Micro pores created during the manufacturing process is not a myth it is a reality. Properly breaking in a modern steel alloy barrel to seal these micro pores is also a fact. Seasoning a barrel in a muzzleloading rifle is historical...For lack of a better term I call it "Seasoning" because that is how it was explained to me...it is what it is.
 
 
This process that I have explained is NOT a traditional seasoning process, but the end result is the same (just like in my example with the swords)...when you are done the barrel is seasoned. Call it "Conditioning" or "Breaking In" if that makes you feel better...or if that is your level of comprehension, then call it "Cleaning & Wiping".
 
 
I didn't expect you to KNOW Fred Newcomb. Seriously??? Its called a citation, I'm identifying my original source and providing that person's considerable credentials on this topic. Mike Nessbit is another source that I cited. He is also a recognized and well recieved figure in the Blackpowder Fraturnity. And if a person makes a statement, and then another person sees the same or similar results, that lends support to the validity of their original words. 
 
I don't expect to sway you from your position...you are definately set in your beliefs. But it is not a positive habit to condem that which you do not understand..."the world is no longer flat, it is infact a sphere."
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Del Gue in "Jeremiah Johnson"

Offline Rock Home Isle

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Re: Do you season the Barrels on your BP firearms??
« Reply #32 on: April 20, 2012, 04:46:53 AM »
For those of you that are following the thread...This topic was not intended as a controversial topic to create angst within our blackpowder community here at Graybeard Outdoors.
 
If you "season" the barrels of your muzzleloaders, I am interested in how you go about your process. My process is a long slow process and I'm sure that there are better methods out there being used. The Bore Butter sounds interesting to me, and I will pursue it this summer.
 
If you don't season (or watever you want to call it), then I asked simply that you state that you don't and then to state why...its simple, no anger needed.
 
If this topic causes you to feel emotional termoil...realise that its just a topic of discussion. There is no evil intent...please have a cup of coffee and enjoy the day.  8)
“Lost?? Hmmm... been fearsome confused for a month or two, but I ain't never been lost!”
Henry Frap the "Mountain Men"

“Ain't this somethin'? I told my pap and mam I was going to be a mountain man; acted like they was gut-shot. Mother Gue said to me; ‘Make your life go here, son. Here's where the people is. Them mountains is for Indians and wild men.’  "Mother Gue", I says "the Rocky Mountains is the marrow of the world," and by God, I was right. Keep your nose in the wind and your eye along the skyline.”
Del Gue in "Jeremiah Johnson"

Offline AtlLaw

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Re: Do you season the Barrels on your BP firearms??
« Reply #33 on: April 20, 2012, 07:44:25 AM »
Well, I dunno...  :-\
 
I cook mostly on cast iron and season all my pieces in the oven; coat with Crisco and bake at 350 degrees.   ;) ;D
 
It appears to me that this initial seasoning puts a nonstick coating on the surface of the pan/pot/whatever.  This coating may go into the "pores" of the iron (if there is such a thing) but I can't say.   :-\
 
I can say that the nonstick properties (seasoning) that are on the surface of the pan go away if you scrub the iron with a detergent and/or something like steel wool.  So I don't...  Wipe 'em out with one of those non-scratch abrasive sponges, give 'em a (very) light coat of peanut oil and they are good to go!   ;D
 
If the "seasoning" builds up to much, I can easily see it filling barrel groves BTW, I clean the pan (in the oven on the "clean" setting) then re-season it.  Pans may also need to be "re-seasoned" if the nonstick coating is rubbed off, like it being cleaned with steel wool and/or detergent.   :(
 
That last part sounds a lot like what people do to "season" their barrels 'cept they use oil rather then detergent.   :-\  'course, as I said, I use oil after I clean a cast iron pan... but that's only to stop rust; which a properly seasoned pan shouldn't do anyway.  Doesn't have much to do with seasoning I don't think.
 
Unless maybe that light coat of "oil" (I'd use Gatofeo #1) is turned to seasoning by the first shot.  In that case then maybe cleaning out the fouling and laying down another coat of oil between shots could season the bore...  :-\  If the previous seasoning isn't scratched off by the brushing ala steel wool...  :-\
 
But if that were so then just shooting the firearm would accomplish the same thing...  :-\  Maybe just not as fast... Unless one uses "soapy" water to clean the barrel and that cuts the seasoning like it does on my cast iron pans...  :-\
 
 ??? :-\ :( :'(
 
Maybe I'll just clean all my BP stuff with plain hot water and soft brush then coat the bore with lube...  :-\  But what if all y'all are wrong and my nice shiny bores turn into sewer pipes!?   ???
 
Why do y'all get me thinking about this stuff!?   >:(  Haven't I got enough on my mind!?   ::)  I been doing fine all these years...  Tell ya what, I'll season my cookware like I want to and clean my BP guns like I want to!  They shoot and clean up just fine thank you very much.   8)
 
I need a beer...  :P
 
 ;D
Richard
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Offline BUGEYE

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Re: Do you season the Barrels on your BP firearms??
« Reply #34 on: April 20, 2012, 07:56:52 AM »
I haven't read this whole thread, but here's what I did.
when my hawken arrived in the mail, I cleaned the barrel with boiling water, while the barrel was hot I swabbed it real heavy with natural lube 1000.
thereafter I used only patches with natural lube and only used boiling water to clean.
thirty years later, still not a speck of rust in the barrel.  I'm a firm believer in natural lube 1000.

of course I swabbed it before shooting, and always swabbed with NL1000 after cleaning.
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Offline keith44

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Re: Do you season the Barrels on your BP firearms??
« Reply #35 on: April 20, 2012, 11:30:55 AM »
If I am following this correctly, the OP was just curious about what others do, and offered to share something he had learned, and done sucessfully.  If your methods give you satisfactory results, stick with 'em.  If you are wanting to try something different, try it.

Pass me a cold one will ya?
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Offline DDZ

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Re: Do you season the Barrels on your BP firearms??
« Reply #36 on: April 20, 2012, 12:16:17 PM »
No I don't season my muzzle loader barrels. I'm with necchi on this. Just my opinion, but filling the pores with some kind of secret formula is pure bunk. If you are calling seasoning, shooting a rifle and cleaning to smooth a bore out, then that is fine. I just call it breaking in a barrel. This can be done quicker by hand lapping or by a process Beartooth bullets sells, which is shooting balls coated with lapping compound. Its much more fun to just shoot the rifle a few hundred rounds to smooth out the bore. Once a bore is smoothed out by just plain ole shooting. Its more accurate, easier to clean, load, and fouling doesn't build up as quick. Its the same as your priming pan. If it is polished very smooth, fouling is easily wiped off, but if your pan is not polished its harder to clean, and rust forms more easily.
   
As far as bore butter being a seasoning compound. They just tell you that to sale their product. Its mainly a patch lube, and can be used as a protectant from rust, but there are better products for protection against rust. I remember seeing a test done with different products to coat a rifle bore for rust protection, and bore butter was not one of the better ones for protecting steel over time. Can't remember what products came out on top, but if I find it I'll post a link to it.
 
http://www.eabco.com/Reports/BarrelBreakIn.htm
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Offline quickdtoo

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Offline BE Wild Willy

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Re: Do you season the Barrels on your BP firearms??
« Reply #38 on: April 20, 2012, 04:04:11 PM »
For those of you that are following the thread...This topic was not intended as a controversial topic to create angst within our blackpowder community here at Graybeard Outdoors.
 
If you "season" the barrels of your muzzleloaders, I am interested in how you go about your process. My process is a long slow process and I'm sure that there are better methods out there being used. The Bore Butter sounds interesting to me, and I will pursue it this summer.
 
If you don't season (or watever you want to call it), then I asked simply that you state that you don't and then to state why...its simple, no anger needed.
 
If this topic causes you to feel emotional termoil...realise that its just a topic of discussion. There is no evil intent...please have a cup of coffee and enjoy the day.  8)
[/quote/]


I thank you RHI for your post and input, and that of all others involved. Never would I have imagined "seasoning" would be such a "heated" topic. ;)  

Offline DDZ

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Re: Do you season the Barrels on your BP firearms??
« Reply #39 on: April 20, 2012, 04:45:12 PM »
Here's one of the best anti-corrosion protection product tests I've seen.

Tim

http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/corrosion/corrosion.html

http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/corrosion/corrosion2.html

Those are the tests I was referring to. Thanks for posting. 
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Offline keith44

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Re: Do you season the Barrels on your BP firearms??
« Reply #40 on: April 20, 2012, 07:20:54 PM »
nice to see independent confirmation of the performance of my favorite lube Ballistol
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Offline Victor3

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Re: Do you season the Barrels on your BP firearms??
« Reply #41 on: April 21, 2012, 02:40:32 AM »
If your intent is to attack the validity of "seasoning a muzzleloading barrel", attack it at its backbone...find a reputable source that states emphatically that micro-pores in steel and iron as the result of the manufacturing process don't exist; or that treating these micro pores has no effect upon the performance of the barrel; then therefore it will be an easy extension to say that all this money being spent on conditioning or breaking-in modern barrels is not needed and is a waste of time & good money. That would do it in spades.

 In reality, the burden of proof lies with those claiming that these "micro-pores" (treated or not) have something to do with how a barrel performs, not t'other way 'round.
 
 There's simply no evidence that they're a factor. None. It's all conjecture with no "backbone".
 
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

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Offline AtlLaw

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Re: Do you season the Barrels on your BP firearms??
« Reply #42 on: April 21, 2012, 03:54:17 AM »
Here's one of the best anti-corrosion protection product tests I've seen.

Thanks for posting that Tim!  That's the test I was thinking of also.  But this time after I read it I made plans to order some of the best performer.   ;)
 
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Offline necchi

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Re: Do you season the Barrels on your BP firearms??
« Reply #43 on: April 21, 2012, 05:48:24 AM »
Of course steel is porous, having "micro pores" isn't specific to rifle barrels.
 
A weak defenition of the word "seasoning"? Wow, you can lead a horse to water,,,
 

For lack of a better term I call it "Seasoning" because that is how it was explained to me.
And there it is in a nutshell
 
 
Quote
Mike Nessbit is another source that I cited. He is also a recognized and well recieved figure in the Blackpowder Fraturnity.
That doesn't make his words the Alpha and Omega of all wisdom.
 
I could throw random Names as sources too, but it's not worth my time.
Season your fry pans, Clean and oil your gun.
found elsewhere

Offline AtlLaw

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Re: Do you season the Barrels on your BP firearms??
« Reply #44 on: April 21, 2012, 06:13:18 AM »
Well sir... whether it be seasoning or cleaning, I appreciate ol' RHI bringing it up!   ;D
 
I been thinkin about this for some time and recently switched to coating the bores of my BP guns, all my guns actually, with that new MPro7 product; sorry, can't remember the name.  Before that I had used wonder lube, then Gatofeo #1, then Breakfree CLP.  Never was completely at peace with any of them...  :-\
 
Now, after considering all that has been said here, I've decided that, while I'm still going to clean my BP guns with hot soapy water, after said cleaning they're going to get the final wipedown, inside and out, with Shenandoah Valley Black Powder Bore Cleaning Solvent!   ;)
 
Now I'm gonna go to the kitchen and make me some steak, eggs and grits... and I'll use my properly seasoned cast iron cookware!   :D
Richard
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Offline P.A. Myers

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Re: Do you season the Barrels on your BP firearms??
« Reply #45 on: April 21, 2012, 09:36:57 AM »
Crisco is some amazing stuff.

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Offline corbanzo

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Re: Do you season the Barrels on your BP firearms??
« Reply #46 on: April 21, 2012, 12:21:31 PM »
I'm trying to read and gain something from this thread and the problem is I'm not. I'm looking at being open minded as to the idea you guys are talking about.

I understand barrels being dirty...  I understand that some chemicals from black powder can cause trouble on metals. I understand chemicals etching metals and weakening them. What I don't understand is why we have to go on a micro chemical level to try and get the process right.

Now "seasoning" of course as the running joke is around here comes from cooking. It comes from cast iron, which has large pores in comparison to today's modern steel. The thinking behind it is that cooking an oil into the iron will fill the pores so that food will not enter those pores, have no where to stick and not cake on the pan.

So as the explanation I'm looking at its the same idea, keeping good chemicals and oils in the metal to keep bad chemicals out - and if bad chemicals get in the process helps to leech them back out.  - seasoning a barrel like you season a pan. Ok. Got it.

Problem - barrels are not cast iron. They do not have large pores, and do not maintain oil in them. I am a cook, so I know this example from cooking goes right out the window - modern metals do not maintain oils in their pores. They do have pores, but as soon as water, food, whatever hits them, unless there is a layer of oil on the surface, will make its way through that oil because the "micropores" as people are calling them do not hold onto enough oil  to stop anything from burning.

The same is true with a firearm. You shoot down a barrel, bye oil!!!  You can cook oil into a barrel all day and one shot, it's gone. That one shot was probably really slick though!  And after that, all the chemicals, dirt, anything else has free reign on the barrel. If your seasoning process really did work, then wouldn't you be able to go with a simple water wash and call it good?  I got some serious doubts about that working.

Now in my bp guns, I clean with soapy water, clean with a bp solvent, then oil it. The only thing different from my cartridge guns is the soapy to get all the gunk out.  Other than that - solvent and oil. And my bp guns have seen no loss in accuracy, they aren't hard to clean, and they still work as good as day one.

So what I'm saying is - scrubbing your gun makes it clean. Oiling your gun protects it from rust, but makes it dirtier because stuff sticks to it.  Shooting your gun makes you happier. And drinking a beer while cleaning it makes you hap....

Dammit all I get it now!!!!  If you season your gun, it takes longer and you get to drink more beer while fondling your firearms!!  You guys wanna come over and lets season the living crap out of these things!!
"At least with a gun that big, if you miss and hit the rocks in front of him it'll stone him to death..."

Offline P.A. Myers

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Re: Do you season the Barrels on your BP firearms??
« Reply #47 on: April 21, 2012, 05:47:41 PM »
Beer is some amazing stuff.
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Offline BE Wild Willy

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Re: Do you season the Barrels on your BP firearms??
« Reply #48 on: April 21, 2012, 07:23:04 PM »
Capital idea. I think I'll season myself as I work on seasoning my gun. Not while loaded though, the gun that is.

Offline Hooker

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Re: Do you season the Barrels on your BP firearms??
« Reply #49 on: April 21, 2012, 08:52:58 PM »
We use to season our barrels just like the old timers did. But modern steels, machine practices, cleaning solutions and lubricants make this practice more of a nostalgic past time than a necessity. We use to only use lubricants that were natural bees wax, animal fats and vegetable oils. and only clean with hot water and very mild soaps. All that left a protective coating in the bore. That was the best way for the old timers to protect the bore of their rifles. Although they did clean their guns it likely wasn't very complete or often.  Petroleum based lubes and strong detergents will strip the seasoning from the bore.  Now a days this is not a problem because the machine work in the bore is much smoother and modern lubes have a much better protection value . Cleaning down to the bare metal and coating with a good protective lube is a lot less work. ;)

Pat
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Offline flintlock

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Re: Do you season the Barrels on your BP firearms??
« Reply #50 on: April 23, 2012, 10:54:18 AM »
Seasoning the bore means not using any petroleum products in it...Some think that putting petroleum down a barrel makes the byproducts from black powder produce a tar like gunk in the barrel...
 
I've never had this problem, been shooting flintlocks since the mid '70s...The first time I heard of this problem or seasoning the bore was in ads in the 80s put out by T/C on their lube that they had come out with...Some bought into their marketing but some didn't...

Offline corbanzo

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Re: Do you season the Barrels on your BP firearms??
« Reply #51 on: April 23, 2012, 11:32:47 AM »
If oils make gunk... Either you are leaving a bunch of oil too long or not cleaning well in the first place
"At least with a gun that big, if you miss and hit the rocks in front of him it'll stone him to death..."

Offline flintlock

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Re: Do you season the Barrels on your BP firearms??
« Reply #52 on: April 23, 2012, 02:56:21 PM »
If oils make gunk... Either you are leaving a bunch of oil too long or not cleaning well in the first place

I agree but that's what the guys argue that believe in seasoning....Never bought into it myself...

Offline keith44

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Re: Do you season the Barrels on your BP firearms??
« Reply #53 on: April 23, 2012, 07:33:27 PM »
If oils make gunk... Either you are leaving a bunch of oil too long or not cleaning well in the first place

I agree but that's what the guys argue that believe in seasoning....Never bought into it myself...


Don't go puttin' words in other peoples mouths.  Shooting BPCR with graphite and "pump grease"  as a bullet lube proved to not make tar, but requires kerosene to clean the bore with. Others may have a different view though.
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Offline plastikosmd

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Re: Do you season the Barrels on your BP firearms??
« Reply #54 on: April 24, 2012, 03:08:20 PM »
Thx for the info. I could see how this  'may' be of benefit in a couple of my old cast steel barrels that have a large open grain pattern( i have a couple from the 1800's that are cast.) I think shooting alone gets me the smooth and 'seasoned' bore in my 'steel' guns. For me there is no magic in a 'modern' bp barrel. I treat it just like my cf guns. Clean it, oil it, shoot it and repeat. Under 1", 5 shot, 100yard and open sights( except on the slug guns) is what I expect and obtain. That is good enough for me! ( maybe someday I will have someone in my area to shoot against and will push the envelope further)

Offline corbanzo

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Re: Do you season the Barrels on your BP firearms??
« Reply #55 on: April 25, 2012, 11:27:11 AM »
If oils make gunk... Either you are leaving a bunch of oil too long or not cleaning well in the first place

I agree but that's what the guys argue that believe in seasoning....Never bought into it myself...


Don't go puttin' words in other peoples mouths.  Shooting BPCR with graphite and "pump grease"  as a bullet lube proved to not make tar, but requires kerosene to clean the bore with. Others may have a different view though.


Well you just backed up what I said. Yeah, some stuff is hard to clean out, but you clean it good, it's clean.
"At least with a gun that big, if you miss and hit the rocks in front of him it'll stone him to death..."

Offline lrrice

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Re: Do you season the Barrels on your BP firearms??
« Reply #56 on: May 07, 2012, 07:29:33 AM »
Each to their own but I went down that road once upon a time and will never do it again.  The natural lube I was using didn't protect the bore well enough and I wound up with some dark spots in it.  It didn't hurt the accuracy, just my feelings.  Now I just clean with hot soapy water and oil lightly like I did before and I don't see any issues what so ever.

Offline Needles

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Re: Do you season the Barrels on your BP firearms??
« Reply #57 on: June 18, 2012, 01:45:12 AM »
I guess I'll give this dead horse another kick. First, if by "seasoning" you mean making the metal smoother or slicker, I'd doubt it. For one thing, if you clean the gun properly, you're going to counteract any benefit you may or may not have accomplished. If you scrub a skillet with hot soapy water, you're going to have to season it again. You always use hot soapy water to clean the gun. If you mean can you cause the metal to darken with a thin layer of oxidation, you certainly can. Think of an "Old Hickory" butcher knife blade. Over time, they darken, and they aren't cast iron. You can even "blue" a rifle barrel with bacon grease and a hot oven if you want to--- a modern kit gun barrel, made out of modern steel, will still take on the black coating if you cook the grease on it. After all, bluing is just another kind of oxidation that happens to be a different color than rust. Do I "season" my barrels? Over time they get darker, so I think it's inevitable. I use natural lubes on them, too, but I do that because I don't think it's healthy to expose yourself to any more petroleum products than is necessary. Like others have said here, I think using the gun does more for it than anything else. Think of an engine. It takes several hundred miles to break one in, and that's steel on steel at several thousand strokes per minute--- how much lead do you have to put through a steel barrel to get it broken in?
Jim

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Offline necchi

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Re: Do you season the Barrels on your BP firearms??
« Reply #58 on: June 18, 2012, 04:02:32 AM »
how much lead do you have to put through a steel barrel to get it broken in?
In my experiance, 150-200 rounds of patched round ball, so no lead is really in contact with the bore.
 
A proper cleaning process is part of that break in of course. Attention should be paid to the crown if patches are still being cut.
 
 Others will use some other mechanical process of scrubing with abrasives or shooting abrasive coated projectiles,
,I prefer to shoot'm in.
found elsewhere

Offline keith44

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Re: Do you season the Barrels on your BP firearms??
« Reply #59 on: June 18, 2012, 04:26:49 AM »
yup just shoot em to break em in

keep em talkin' while I reload
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