Algae bio-fuel makes sense..

[mcwoodduck]

The only thing I can tell you MCwoodduck, is that some of the most important discoveries, resource geological discoveries, basic science breakthoughs, innovative industrial techniques, basic medical research and drug research....including from massive NASA spending....was mainly brought about from taxpayer funded programs and research...This is especially true in basic scientific research wherein profits are not immediately recognizable.  Henry Ford indeed made buggy whips obsolete, as he recognized a booming fuel industry beginning...We need more Henry Fords that recognize other innovative technologies rather than dwell in the past. And when you think about it,,,with ME instability, carbon footprints, enviornmental considerations, Fukishima doomsday scenario, resource fuel political gambits,etc....never had we needed more fuel energy break throughs before.....still amazes me how Bush Jr. dropped the entire ball on this issue grasping even tighter to his 'buggy whip'..
 
.
.
..TM7

NO NASA spending was incentive based.
They told the commercial market what they needed and the Private sector jumped on the ball and did their own research into providing what they needed.
If we had waited for current research we would still be researching if the monkey would die in Zero gravity. and we would be researching methods of rocket fuel.
Part of the problem is the Government research never acopmlishes anything and never ends.  All the drugs and major break throughs of the last and early this century have come from the Private sector.  Clearly if government research produced anything the Soviet Union would have been the leaders in medicine, electronics, and production.  They were not and often stole ideas from the private sector of the west.
If government programs are so good why is Michael J Fox asking the US government to fund Parkenson research when he is Canadian and Canada has Socialized medicine.  Wouldn't the Government health care system of Canada be better to do that then the private sector under your premis?
 

[Conan The Librarian]

We're going through a period of transition, and it's about time. Most peg the development of the car to the advent of the gasoline engine, but I'll go farther back than that to the early 1800s when steam was the engine of choice. It took over a hundred years to get to the point where somebody like Henry Ford could get a bright idea about manufacturing, and it's been another 100 years to get from there to here, so we're looking at two centuries of development.
 
I remember reading about how many people preferred steam power in the early days. Then it disappeared because gas and diesel and electric were superior. There were battery problems with electric, so that went away in production cars until recently.
 
Even gasoline has changed a lot. You've heard of Phillips 66. That 66 originally referred to the octane rating, which most modern engines would not be able to use today. I've seen engines that ran on 45 octane.
 
Then there were the bright innovators who dealt with the WW2 energy crisis in Brazil by converting their cars to run on pulverized coal dust.
 
We've just gotten to the point where the public is receptive to electric, hybrid, ethanol, and low sulphur diesel. That's a minor miracle in itself. Fifteen years ago, the Toyota Prius was a production car in Japan that was heavily subsidized by the Japanese government. Today it's one of the most popular cars in America, and rightly so. It serves the transportation needs of a lot of urbanites very well.

[mcwoodduck]

I'm sorry mcwooduck, I don't think your read what I wrote exactly, nor do I think you get the difference between applied and basic science. Moreover, please review the last ten yeras of NASA  governmnet budgets....NOAA budgets, grants in aid to various colleges and the NIST budgets, national Academy of sciences, Livermore, Brookhaven, LosAlomos Laboratories and other national academies and various other grants and budgets...I think you will find all together thos moneys may exceed 150 billion/ year....If not for this process of governmnet fostered research and technolgies we could possiblely be back in the buggy whip age. Clearly, Michael Fox is further beseeching governmnet to throw more money into Parkinson research to find a 'cure' quicker...The fact that there is a form of socialized medicine in Canada which all Canadians adore has nothing to do with his desire for money for research...I'm sure he also ask private concerns too.
.
..TM7

No I understood what you wrote.
Over the last 20 years wehn we have gone from a result based sector to a command based sector and stupid ellected officials that think if they make a law that it will make science happen.  When science is not happening fast enough they then throw tax dollars at a university that claims with enough money they can solve the problem.  When they do not they say they do not have enough money to finish the project.  Of course that would be like me telling you I'll pay you $50 an hour to .... and you milk the job for ever and never fully finish.
Your buggy whip senerio does not work.  All the R&D for it was moot by the private sector, namly Merceded Benz inventing the car and companies like Buick, Cadiliac, Stanley Steamer and so on coping it and finally Ford who figured out how to mass produce a car.  Not inventing the car but the assembly line and getting away from artisan production.  Where one person or team does the whole project.  To a person specializes in a single task.  None of the engineering or innovation that ended the buggy whip as a commercial product was government funded.   people had a good idea and gathered capital to make their dream come true.
Think about this.  If you are a brilliant chemist and think with a little time and Money you can come up with a cure for cancer.  Would you work for a a government research facility for $50,000 a year, a big pharma outfit for $75,000 or would you gather capital and build your own company so that when you do cure cancer you can sell it for a few billion to a pharma company?  And that sir is why government research fails the smart minds do not go into it.

[Dixie Dude]

Nasa really didn't develop anything.  They told private industry what they wanted and the lowest bidder got the bids.  Companies did their own research. 

[ironglow]

Conan says;
  "  the Toyota Prius was a production car in Japan that was heavily subsidized by the Japanese government. Today it's one of the most popular cars in America, and rightly so. It serves the transportation needs of a lot of urbanites very well."
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
 
  That is an example of the stupid spending being done by the Obammy administration.  The Prius is already well along and proven , as well as the Honda Insight and Nissan Leaf..  But the Obammy gang gambles billions of our tax dollars on the stupid Chevy Volt..why ?  We needed a Volt like we need a hole in the head..
   The Volt costs $40K and the government has to pay customer $7K to buy one..   This week as they suspend production on the Volt... a new Prius is introduced which gets much better mileage, is a proven design and sells for under $20K !
      Smart play with our taxes Obaminites !

[Conan The Librarian]

I think the volt approach to power management has a future, at least if the charging technology inproves and becomes more widely available in cities. They were the first out of the gate with that approach, but I think toyota promptly showed they can do it to but dont sell it widely yet.

[mechanic]

I think the volt approach to power management has a future, at least if the charging technology inproves and becomes more widely available in cities. They were the first out of the gate with that approach, but I think toyota promptly showed they can do it to but dont sell it widely yet.

I've been an electric vehicle mechanic for over 40 years, (forklifts, plant robotics, etc.).  The vehicle systems reached an apex several years ago.  Unless they can invent the perpetual motion machine so many looked for long ago, they will not improve too much on the efficiency rating of modern systems.  What they don't have, and are a long way from having is a battery light enough, strong enough and with enough reserve to be practical.  Thats why the hybrids have an engine.  We have forklifts that can run 8 - 12 hours on a battery charge.  In an auto that would get you a long ways from home.  The problem for the auto is that the batteries weigh up to 7000#.
 
Lithium is an improvement, but is not yet the answer.  Too many cells required and they fill every nook and cranny they can stuff them in.
 
I would love to have an electric vehicle that would run highway speeds for 300 or more miles.  If someone can come up with a power source, I can build them a car, no problem.....
 
Ben

[scootrd]

LAKOTA. Aint that a crock??What kind of logic is that?? And obummer says NOOOO to the pipeline. POWDERMAN. 

The pipeline was never to produce for US . The company already stated once refined it would go on sale to open world market for purchase. They objective of the pipeline is just to gain access to the tax free refineries.

I feel we should diversify our energy portfolio. investing in R&D of all kinds of alternate energy sources is a step in the right direction. Upgrading our infrastructure electric grid, and smart planning and Investing in more public transportation where it makes sense another , not only will it help us diversify and grow our transportation , all these ideas create good paying  Jobs and we receive tangible products from dollars spent/invested. 

[scootrd]

The only thing I can tell you MCwoodduck, is that some of the most important discoveries, resource geological discoveries, basic science breakthoughs, innovative industrial techniques, basic medical research and drug research....including from massive NASA spending....was mainly brought about from taxpayer funded programs and research...This is especially true in basic scientific research wherein profits are not immediately recognizable. 
..TM7

I agree ,  -  and as kids we also got Tang !!!!!! 

[scootrd]

I think the volt approach to power management has a future, at least if the charging technology inproves and becomes more widely available in cities. They were the first out of the gate with that approach, but I think toyota promptly showed they can do it to but dont sell it widely yet.

From everything I have read , I think the Tesla Model S and roadster version seems pretty impressive. They already have 8,000 reservations and plan to produce 20,000 in 2013.

The sports version all electric roadster boasts 0-60 in 3.9 seconds.
The model S sedan sports lexus type styling

[Conan The Librarian]

TM7:
 
About the Volt and Europe. Good point. I think it fits the European driver best because of the way they drive. Generally shorter distances, which can be covered with pure electric mode. I'll assume that gas prices are a lot higher relative to electricity there. I'm not sure whether "innovative" is a code word for "cool and very desirable, but way too expensive".
 
About here: I think price is the biggest barrier in the US. 40,000 is the base price. They get up to 48k to 50k pretty quickly. Completely unacceptable, except for people who can afford it and want it, which it appears aren't very abundant. If they can get it into the mid-20s, I think it may do very well.
 
I'll be very happy to see the "big 3" well positioned for the future. I read that GM is putting a lot of developmental work into electric power options. As it stands, it looks like the other guys are ahead and have a huge lead.
 
I remember Toyota's response to the Volt: They showed a Prius with the same kind of power management, plus a couple of other combinations. It telegraphed that they are prepared for any challenges, and that they are using the ones that work best  today.
 
One of the car mags had a road test of a hydrogen Leaf. Pretty cool. They drove it in Los Angeles. The problem was finding stations where they could get fuel, but there were stations out there, usually in out of the way places.

[mcwoodduck]

mcwoodduck..not everybody is prompted to worship on the alter of greenbacks...there are actually people that do things for enjoyment, thrill of discovery and for the betterment of mankind...these people often do work at Universities and not for profit outfits...this is why the cure for cancer will likely come from a 'socialized' HC system wherein the incentive is to actually cure cancer --not profit from it. You seem to be minimizing the role of governmnet(s) in our complex scientific and progress community...BUT IT IS HUGE.  Even IG somehow acknowledges that NASA with huge budgets headedup and directed massive research and development programs and with University and private producers....but much of the basic research was governmnet sponsored.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Scootrd.....
.

I feel we should diversify our energy portfolio. investing in R&D of all kinds of alternate energy sources is a step in the right direction. Upgrading our infrastructure electric grid, and smart planning and Investing in more public transportation where it makes sense another , not only will it help us diversify and grow our transportation , all these ideas create good paying  Jobs and we receive tangible products from dollars spent/invested. 

 .
Yes indeed,,,,I don't know how anybody could argue with your statement and want to remain in a 'buggy whip' era...but they do! America needs and should be cutting edge on all energy and other technological endeavors (not just weapons)...and not retroactive. BTW, you might have noticed that the Chevy Volt is highly regarded in Euro car circles as innovative, but poo-pooed here by the hate GMC-Obama so-called conservative crowd...
.
...TM7

I am not minimizing the role of government.
You are maximizing the roll of government. 
Simply government is there to allow fair and safe free commerce.  Government is not there to dictate science and mandate breakthrough. 
While it may be in the governments interest to develope items it needs to further it's goals they do it through the private sector.
Profit is what has directed the limited resources most efficiently over the last 500 years.  Companies succeded and failed.  The buildings, the staff, the products went to make other goods, other things.  The government is there to let you succed or to fail based on the market and your choices.  The government is not there to keep you in business long after that company should have gone under and someone else should have taken over and produced a better item.
And a NON Profit agency or company usually has very little done and huge salaries for the people not making a profit.  Look at a lot of charities and Lobby groups associated with them.  Very little of your donated $ ever gets to the cause of the charity.  HCI Handgun Control Incorperated spend more on lobby and their salaries than if they had just purchased Colt, S&W and a few other smaller fire arm companies and closed them.  It was not about the cause it was about the lobby.
I worked for a company started by a few lawyers that wanted to be K street lobbiest.  The started a retail company to fund their lifestyle as lobbyists for boating rights.  The membership to the company went ot fund the non profit side of the company that paid their huges salsries so they could be K steet lobbyists.  They made more as lobbyists than did the Retail store as profit.  Again it was all about making $, not solving the issues.
Next time you send a check to a non profit charity for research, ask how much of that dollar goes to the running of the lab as opposed to the running of the charity.
My guess is 10% goes to the solving of the cure 80% goes to the running of the charity (staff, CEO, and lobby groups) and 10% for advertisement and literature.

[mcwoodduck]

The only thing I can tell you MCwoodduck, is that some of the most important discoveries, resource geological discoveries, basic science breakthoughs, innovative industrial techniques, basic medical research and drug research....including from massive NASA spending....was mainly brought about from taxpayer funded programs and research...This is especially true in basic scientific research wherein profits are not immediately recognizable. 
..TM7

I agree ,  -  and as kids we also got Tang !!!!!! 

Develpoed by a private company.  Marketed by a private company.
The Government does not get a penny of the profits of Tang

[BUGEYE]

Ironglow and mcwoodduck have it right.
everything ever developed could have been developed WITHOUT government throwing MY money at it .  my money will get involved when I buy the product.
goverments job is to maintain the military and set foreign policy.
the analogy about russia was spot on.

[SHOOTALL]

DoD is busy looking at all kinds of alternate fuels, because they might need them someday....probably the most expensive fuel source per btu they employ is nuclear...which they love. Of course, Rudolph Diesel designed the diesel engine to run on vegetable oils in the first place...not petroleum.
.
.TM7

really , consider they are rated in years of run time not hours ............ whats it worth to be able in a war to hide subs for very long periods of time ? The entire land mass of N. America could be hit and taken out of a fight and the attacker could still be hit hard enough that they won't recover. That has to keep some from attacking ...........

[scootrd]

I'm sure you agree that any corporation receiving any of the governmnet 'welfare', such as grants and aid, TARP money, tax exclusions, etc., etc...that those principle owners and CEOs PUT THEIR OWN MONEY ON THE TABLE WHEN IT COMES TIME TO FOLD UP SHOP OR TO CONTINUE IN PRODUCTION.
...
.....TM7

Absolutely unequivocally agree .can't have it both ways. Which is what some want.

and I would like to add (not to go off on a tangent) Personal income tax was never part of our founding fathers plan for this country. Tariffs on corporate goods was. HMM I wonder if all tax subsidies and incentives to corps stopped if they could afford to pay the American worker back by paying off SS IOU's they have robbed by using over the years as their own slush fund . Perhaps they could then begin to lower the retirement age rather than keep upping it to offset shortfalls they claim exist.

Food for thought.

[Dixie Dude]

With the space program, the government is the customer, and the private companies develop the products the government needs to sell to them.  Most of the time, the developments are later marketed to the public.  Research and development spending eventually always pays for itself.  That is the only thing the government can do to actually help society besides roads, bridges, and national defence.  Welfare doesn't help, especially the way they have it set up.  It promotes laziness, and destroys the family unit.  Welfare should be below the poverty level, so the people will go to work to get more than they can get on welfare.  The government could research and develop strains of algae that say have 60-70% oil by body weight, which would make the cost to produce algae oil go down.  But until the cost of production is lower than drilling, it will not happen on a massive scale.  Same with cow manure natural gas at feed stalls and dairy farms.  There is enough cow manure to replace 1/3-1/2 of existing natural gas production.  Again until the cost to drill and frac exceeds the manure manufactured gas, it will not happen either.  Sewage can also be used to produce natural gas, but it isn't as efficient as cows.  After algae is pressed to extract the oil, the dead algae could be allowed to rot in covered pools and produce natural gas.  It could also be processed into animal feed.  Right now it is very labor intensive.  Greenhouses and automation might make algae profitable, but not quite yet. 
 
I think ALL forms of energy should be exploited.  Drilling for oil and gas, mining for coal, wind and solar where practical, nuclear where other forms are impractical.  R & D spending for higher production rate algae strains.  Coal for synthetic oil.  If we did not import any energy forms, we would cut half our trade deficit and would lower unemployment by about 2%.  NO GOVERNMENT SUBSITIES for any energy form EXCEPT for research into more ECONOMICAL ways to get energy.  GOP likes oil and gas subsidies, DEMS like solar and wind subsities.  Forget your favorite, research for lower cost for all forms of energy and for renewable forms.  Then let private industry take it from there to exploit the findings. 
 
I also think farm subsidies are stupid.  Paying for NOT growing stuff.  The world needs food.  We can produce an abundance of food.  Use the subsidy money instead to BUY excess and store it, especially grains, dry goods, and canned goods.  Use for foreign aid for hurricane, tsunami, or earthquake victums.  Use for commodities for the poor here instead of food stamps.  This would force them to accept good wholesome food, instead of junk food bought with the food stamp program. 
 
At least we have future alternatives coming down the pike if America lasts that long.

[mcwoodduck]

NASA is just one near perfect example of many Fed Depts, on how Governmnet fosters, promotes, and pays for research and production among the private sector...this governmnet sponsored R and D pays big dividends to the private sector in spin off industries...Eg,,without NASA as the hingepin of alot of scientific development we might not have Tang or disposible razors... ...actually alot more than that!
.
Just look at their budget and you'll get the picture how governmnet, post buggy whip era, nowadays is or can be very instrumental in stimulating basic research AND applied research.....one can just imagine about 1500 corps crying in their beer when BHO threatened to size down NASA...i.e. the well drying up.
.
http://www.nasa.gov/news/budget/index.html
.
This is why governmnet is also instrumental in developing new and alternate fuel sources,,,at least speeding up that development...and the sooner the better--esp if the USA is to keep up with other countries.
.
...TM7

Nasa did not pay for research.
The said we need a dry beverage with these minerals and calories.
And multiple companies did their own research into a dry drink mix.
Be it Cool Aid or Tang.  private companies developed the method to make the drink mix.
The Military does the same.
They need a Tank, Armor, a rifle, what have you, the governement writes a spec and private industry comes up with it and then competes for the job and submits their lowest price to still make a profit and recoup the development costs.
When the Army said they wanted a 9mm they wrote a spec and multiple companies siubmitted what they made, the Government did not pay to develope the alloys or plastics to build the guns they just saisd this alloy.
The Sgt York was a prime example of a Government project that they paid for and was done by commitiee.
The Idea was to make a copy of the russian ZSU 23   a 4 barreld ANTI aircraft vehicle to shoot down soviet Hind Helecopters.
At the end of the project the thing did not work and cost 3X what was budgeted as everyone on the commitee wanted it to do something else other than shoot down  Commi assault choppers.  We could have bought a fleet of the ZSU-23's from one of the Soviet client states for less money than the government spent on trying to develop their own.

[Cuts Crooked]

Anyone know how much money Henry Ford took from the government to develope his cars and methods of manufacturing them?

[ironglow]

I think the volt approach to power management has a future, at least if the charging technology inproves and becomes more widely available in cities. They were the first out of the gate with that approach, but I think toyota promptly showed they can do it to but dont sell it widely yet.

From everything I have read , I think the Tesla Model S and roadster version seems pretty impressive. They already have 8,000 reservations and plan to produce 20,000 in 2013.

The sports version all electric roadster boasts 0-60 in 3.9 seconds.
The model S sedan sports lexus type styling

oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
 
  Ummm Scoot;
   Last thing I heard of Tesla Motors:
 http://247wallst.com/2011/06/23/electric-car-maker-files-for-bankruptcy-sales-for-others-still-slow-f-hev-gm-tm-hmc-tsla/
 
 http://www.teslaenergywork.com/work-avoid-bankruptcy-tesla-borrows-40-million/
  They are continnually "on the ropes" only surviving by borrowing more ..not by selling product
Is yopur idea of "going green", driving a $109,000, 2 seat only roadster that charges all night on coal produced electric ?  ..And is 0-60 in 3.9 seconds in this essentially 'coal powered' car, the epitome of enviro-consciousness ?   
 
000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
 
     From TM in reply #55;
      " NASA is just one near perfect example of many Fed Depts, on how Governmnet fosters, promotes, and pays for research and production among the private sector...this governmnet sponsored R and D pays big dividends to the private sector in spin off industries..."

''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
   I sure chuckle at that....... "Near perfect example"        Look what Obama has done with that;
   
     http://usgovinfo.about.com/b/2010/07/07/obama-tells-nasa-to-improve-muslim-relations.htm
 
   Not so "near perfect" anymore, is it ! 
 
   Barack Hussein Obama smashing taxpayers hopes for space exploration...and changing it into a Muslim "self esteem stimulation society"...  seems odd, indeed. 
       
                              What do you suppose was his motivation for that ?

[Dixie Dude]

You can only go about 300 miles on a Telsa, then you have to recharge 5-8 hours.  Not a good cross country vehicle.  Also, they cost about $90,000.  Not there yet.  Another thing, if ALL American vehicles were electric we would need about 100 new power plants.  Not enough solar and wind to go around, except the plains states maybe.  What about the rest of us?  Nukes?  Natural gas?  Still can't get away from fossil fuels YET, and we need more.

[scootrd]

  Ummm Scoot;
   Last thing I heard of Tesla Motors:
   They are continnually "on the ropes" only surviving by borrowing more ..not by selling product
Is yopur idea of "going green", driving a $109,000, 2 seat only roadster that charges all night on coal produced electric ?  ..And is 0-60 in 3.9 seconds in this essentially 'coal powered' car, the epitome of enviro-consciousness ?   

Thanks for the update IG .
It's less about the "going green aspects and more about the R&D inroads I  found fascinating.
I was really intrigued by the conceptual design developed from the ground up approach. It;s easy to follow others , it;s another thing to venture out on your own because you believe in the advancement of a new technology.

I was personally impressed by the amount of torque that could be generated through this type of motor design.
Heck my dream car 65 GTO tri power can only pull 0-60 in 6.1 sec, 1/4 mile in 14.7 sec

seriously
The R&D aspects of pushing the boundaries developing these new Hybrids etc is intriguing whether or not a particular the auto become "real world applicable" or not,  the potential spin off applications that may be able to be leveraged by these tech advancements in other sectors may.

[mcwoodduck]

Hey I have an alternative fuel source.
Cheap and accessable.
Renewable.
Safe and reliable.
We take the windmill technology.  Regear it. and replace the expensive fan blades with handles.
Mount it horizontally in a prison yard and make the prisoners push the handles to generate power.
We used to sentence prisoners to Hard labor, why not make them power the grid.
Would make them tired to fight each other at 8 to 12 hours a day.  We can run it on multiple shifts. 
 

[ironglow]

   Scoot;
  If somebody REALLY wanted to make a "breakthrough"..they would forget the cars and high performance of them right now.
  They should take the advice Mechanic offered in his reply #42.... namely, a greatly improved battery.
  A much more efficent and much lighter weight battery is needed if we are to go anywhere with electric auto technology.  Most cars normally get 385-400 miles on a tank of gas, when a battery pack takes the same car the same distance and weighs about the same as that car's full tank of gas, then they will be getting somewhere!
   Then there is the problem of the northern states.  Under harsh winter conditions, I don't have to remind you...battery output is half or less.  Then there is the heater.. with an internal combustion engine it is free, as a byproduct of engine operation. With a battery driven car, it will have to come by way of an electrical resistance appliance...the most power sapping type of appliance there is.
     Then we come to distribution and fast charging... and what powers the generating plants..nuclear ?
  I'm not saying we should not pursue alternative sources, but we have at least a 100 year window to do so.  It is not feasible to have so many taxpayer financed ventures of which almost all go broke. I believe we can invent our way out if we do the ground work now and allow the rest to come on line as the available fossil fuel actually starts to diminish, making alternatives feasible and attractive.

[mcwoodduck]

   Scoot;
  If somebody REALLY wanted to make a "breakthrough"..they would forget the cars and high performance of them right now.
  They should take the advice Mechanic offered in his reply #42.... namely, a greatly improved battery.
  A much more efficent and much lighter weight battery is needed if we are to go anywhere with electric auto technology.  Most cars normally get 385-400 miles on a tank of gas, when a battery pack takes the same car the same distance and weighs about the same as that car's full tank of gas, then they will be getting somewhere!
   Then there is the problem of the northern states.  Under harsh winter conditions, I don't have to remind you...battery output is half or less.  Then there is the heater.. with an internal combustion engine it is free, as a byproduct of engine operation. With a battery driven car, it will have to come by way of an electrical resistance appliance...the most power sapping type of appliance there is.
     Then we come to distribution and fast charging... and what powers the generating plants..nuclear ?
  I'm not saying we should not pursue alternative sources, but we have at least a 100 year window to do so.  It is not feasible to have so many taxpayer financed ventures of which almost all go broke. I believe we can invent our way out if we do the ground work now and allow the rest to come on line as the available fossil fuel actually starts to diminish, making alternatives feasible and attractive.

We have an electric fork lift a work and you can crawl faster than it moves.
It may be able to go 300 to 400 miles but at 1 to 2 miles an hour down hill for me to use that technology to get to work I would have to leave on Saturday morning to get to work by 8am Monday.

[Dixie Dude]

That is why I think we need to do things incrementally. 
 
I think natural gas vehicles can be a bridge to later new technology, if nothing else, get us off foreign oil.
 
 Diesels are big in Germany, but why not here, 20% better fuel economy right off the bat. 
 
Hybrids are OK, but why not flywheel energy storage.  Sure it only gives about 20% at best, but it is 20% increase in fuel economy and it is far cheaper than Hybrids.
 
In 200 years hydrogen gas will probably replace natural gas in the same pipeline systems.  Steel wool pads have to be installed on gas burners because hydrogen burns clear, not blue like natural gas.  The steel wool glows red to show it is burning.  Then the compressed hydrogen could easily replace compressed natural gas for vehicles.  Or you could make hydrogen fuel cells. 
 
Our energy problem(s) are not how electricity is made, but transportation fuel, which is imported.  We use coal, nuclear, hydro, wind, solar, and natural gas to make electricity now.  None of which is imported.  With anything imported our money leaves the country and may never return.  Whatever is produced here, the money stays here creating jobs.  Whether it be fuel or manufactured goods.  Drilling, installing pipelines, installing nuclear power plants, etc, creates good paying jobs here, and the money is spent here. 
 
Haven't heard about it lately, but Volvo was working on a turbine engine about the size of a lunch box.  It could run on any fuel, diesel, gasoline, natural gas, propane, or alcohol.  It ran a generator which charged several batteries.  The batteries were standard deep cycle marine batteries.  The vehicle was powered by electric motors one in front and one in back.  The small turbine powered the front motor, and while the car idled, it charged batteries which ran the rear motor in acceleration.  The car it was installed in was a standard full sized Volvo.  It got 50 mpg.  The same car with a standard gasoline engine only got in the low 20's mpg.  The small turbine was cheaper to manufacture than a large turbine.  They said this might come on the market in a few years.  A truck or large SUV might have two of these turbines.  Turbines are far more efficient than piston engines, but are more expensive to manufacture.  Being smaller helps.   
 
Another thing I heard, was Chrysler was making an all plastic 5 passenger hatchback car in Brazil.  This car used a twin cylinder garden tractor engine.  Doors had metal pins and hinges.  Metal inserts were placed in high stress areas like axles to the frame or bottom engine mounts, etc.  This car had no heater (Brazil doesn't get cold).  It also had no air condition.  This car was to be sold for around $6,000 new.  It got 75 mpg.  It was not going to be sold in America because of safety concerns. 
So, any incremental improvements helps.  Turbines, flywheels, better and cheaper batteries. 

[scootrd]

We have an electric fork lift a work and you can crawl faster than it moves.
It may be able to go 300 to 400 miles but at 1 to 2 miles an hour down hill for me to use that technology to get to work I would have to leave on Saturday morning to get to work by 8am Monday.

McDuck
That was my point  -  0-60 in 3.9 using pure electric is quite impressive. Certainly not a crawl there.
A lady friend of ours and her husband just drove from Wisconsin through the Rockies , a visit to Vegas and Zion national park
Think she mentioned it was about 2500 miles round trip total.  They drove their new CRV gas assist electric hybrid. She was telling me last week how well the hybrid performed in the mountains , they were both quite impressed.

[scootrd]

That is why I think we need to do things incrementally. 
 
Diesels are big in Germany, but why not here, 20% better fuel economy right off the bat. 

I went to fill up my tractor yesterday 4.39 gal diesel. Can someone explain to me why diesel costing more than refined gasoline?  I don't get it .  Price manipulation , or just greater demand for Diesel globally?

[ironglow]

Dixie Dude says;
  "Our energy problem(s) are not how electricity is made, but transportation fuel, which is imported.  We use coal, nuclear, hydro, wind, solar, and natural gas to make electricity now.  None of which is imported.  With anything imported our money leaves the country and may never return.  Whatever is produced here, the money stays here creating jobs.  Whether it be fuel or manufactured goods.  Drilling, installing pipelines, installing nuclear power plants, etc, creates good paying jobs here, and the money is spent here"
0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
 
 DD stated what is probably the biggest headache for the near future.  We hear from the liberals how very much fuel we use in our internal combustion engines.  The fact is, nobody doubts that..but there is no other feasible answer on the horizon.  Meanwhile, we are sending our American dollars to many other economies around the world, while our economy suffers...
    Surely, we should use our own petroleum, gas and any other energy source.. keeping as much of our money as possible, right here in the US.  After all; do we really know how much of that oil money is paying for weapons to attack our own young men & women around the world.
  Then too, I should rather we kept our $$$ right here, as opposed to sending them to the likes of Hugo Chavez, Chinese dictators, Amadinijhad and a host of other groups who only want to defeat or kill us.
   In my estimation, any elected leader who prefers sending our $$$ to our enemies instead of keeping them here, is committing an act of treason.

[mcwoodduck]

We have an electric fork lift a work and you can crawl faster than it moves.
It may be able to go 300 to 400 miles but at 1 to 2 miles an hour down hill for me to use that technology to get to work I would have to leave on Saturday morning to get to work by 8am Monday.

McDuck
That was my point  -  0-60 in 3.9 using pure electric is quite impressive. Certainly not a crawl there.
A lady friend of ours and her husband just drove from Wisconsin through the Rockies , a visit to Vegas and Zion national park
Think she mentioned it was about 2500 miles round trip total.  They drove their new CRV gas assist electric hybrid. She was telling me last week how well the hybrid performed in the mountains , they were both quite impressed.

But that is my point the electric cars still needs gas to make it go past 300 miles.  How long would the trip have tanken and how stressfull would it have been trying to find a place to recharge every 4 to 5 hours?  A trip that took me 6 days from NJ to VA to Southern CA at 300 miles a day and having to wait to recharge?
An all electric car may be a great commuter car, but does not make a road trip car. 
The whole push of the electric car is to get rid of fuel based cars. 
If you look at the life span of the hybrids and the materials used to make them they poluter more than a suburban.   Not to mention the smaller andlighter the car the more likly you are to be killed in even a slow speed accident.