Algae bio-fuel makes sense..

[SHOOTALL]

The combo gas / battery makes sense when a less expensive battery is aval. Submarines have been working that way for over 100 years . When you have an on board way to produce a re-charge then you have something. Think if you could have say a 40 HP engine producing elec. to keep the bat charged and maybe adding to the power in some way . It could run at a constant speed maybe using less fuel than a 200 HP engine .
It has to be cost effective though. Not only long term but at time of sale.

[Dixie Dude]

A few years back, they passed a law requiring sulfer to be removed from diesel fuel.  It has to go through an extra refining process, thus the extra expense.
 
A car can be made to run using standard marine trolling motor batteries and a gasoline engine to recharge them.  However, it would be extremely heavy, and it still takes a long time to recharge.  Lithium batteries are far lighter, but still take time to recharge.  That is why I think flywheels should be used.  Sure they would be heavy, but cheap.  From a dead stop on the flywheel, I read it would only take 15-20 minutes to get it fast enough to give reserve power for acceleration.  It would only be used in acceleration, a small engine would run the car on the highway.  Chrysler did this back in the 70's and a New Yorker got 36 MPG on the highway, a 2 ton car at the time.  It only had a 4 cylinder engine for crusing and getting the flywheel running when idleing or stopped.  I've often wondered why this didn't take off.  Lockheed made the flywheels out of woven steel wire in a containment box that was mounted on gimbels so it was always level.  It could spin at 30,000 rpm if I remember and since it was wire, no danger of flying apart like a solid one.  It had a center shaft with a combination motor/generator on top, for spinning and producing electricity for acceleration.

[scootrd]

A few years back, they passed a law requiring sulfer to be removed from diesel fuel.  It has to go through an extra refining process, thus the extra expense.
 
That is why I think flywheels should be used.  Sure they would be heavy, but cheap.  From a dead stop on the flywheel, I read it would only take 15-20 minutes to get it fast enough to give reserve power for acceleration.

I thought that's what the regenerative breaking systems were doing in these hybrids already. Capturing and converting your kinetic breaking energy into electricity and then feeding back into the batteries.

[Dixie Dude]

Kinetic energy brakes helps a little, but not as much.  If a small gas engine runs a generator while idleing it can charge up a flywheel for acceleration.  The Chrysler in the 70's had a 3' diameter flywheel which floated on gimbles in the back, taking up about half the trunk space.  It mechanically geared to the rear at the same time the 4 cylinder engine geared to the same rear end as the flywheel.  Not as efficient as electrical.  Studies indicated back then, that a generator on the engine could charge a electric flywheel.  It in turn would generate electricity on acceleration for an electric motor in the rear.  The engine would generate the electricity for a motor in the front for front wheel drive.  Both would be used on acceleration then the engine would take over on the front only after interstate speeds were reached.  Around town, the engine would charge the flywheel while idleing.  The mechanical linkage Chrysler got around 35 mpg.  This was a 70's heavy car.

[scootrd]

“The Volt had its strongest sales month to date in March, with sales of more than 2,000 vehicles. Sales nearly doubled from January to February and that trend continued into March,” GM wrote yesterday. February Volt sales were at 1,023, while March sales reached 2,289. As gas prices increase and people see more and more stories about clean cars such as the Volt, Leaf, and Prius, sales are rising. Nissan Leaf sales increased from 478 to 579 for the same time period, and its 2012 sales at the end of March were 1,733, more than three times the 2011 figure of 452. Toyota sold 891 Prius Plug-In Hybrids in that car's first full month on the market--or about 3 percent of the 28,711 Priuses sold in March.

[ironglow]

Scoot;
   As I said earlier, the Volt is a government provided answer..for which nobody had asked the question.  Nobody asked for another hybrid, since for anyone interested, there were many well researched and tested models already on the road and in daily use.
  So Volt sold 2,000 units for March, that's good enough reason to shut the line down, considering that Toyota sold 28,711 Prius models in the same period...and the Prius buyers were not given $7,000 each (of our tax money) to buy one.
  http://green.autoblog.com/2012/04/04/toyota-prius-sales-surge-54-from-a-year-earlier-to-monthly-reco/   Toyota sold a total of 34,722 hybrids in March
 
    This is a great illustration of why government SHOULD NOT get involved in venture capitalism..politicians and government employees are not moved by wise investment as they are by politics or.... personal gain.
 
  Considering that in March 2012 Toyota Camry sold 42,567 units and Ford F150 sold 58,061 units..none of which $7,000 of our tax dollars were handed to customers to help buy them...2,000 units for Volt is really bad news.  How many would have been sold without the $7,000 bonanza on the side ?
  The figures given for the Toyotas & Fords were for the US alone..unlike the Volt, they are sold in many other countries.

[Conan The Librarian]

One of the surprising things I noticed about the Volt was how many low mileage used ones were for sale when I checked about six months ago. I don't knowmif people who originally owned them bought the, then tool the tax credit and re- sold them at about normal sticker price, or whether they had buyers remorse and wanted to get rid of them. I also noted that a lot of them cost around fifty thousand, not the forty we read about in articles.

[mcwoodduck]

What about an electric car that has a fast change battery?
We have propane tanks we swap out at the grocery store.
What about a system of deep cycle batteries at gas stations.
You pull up and pay a fee, drop the battery and a new one in inserted.
The battery is put into a bank of chargers and off you go.

[BUGEYE]

DDs flywheel idea is good.  years ago I drove a john deere tractor that sometimes sounded like the engine quit, but that flywheel kept spinning and it kept pulling.
lots of good ideas that the greenies won't accept.

[scootrd]

What about an electric car that has a fast change battery?
We have propane tanks we swap out at the grocery store.
What about a system of deep cycle batteries at gas stations.
You pull up and pay a fee, drop the battery and a new one in inserted.
The battery is put into a bank of chargers and off you go.

I like this idea

[scootrd]

DDs flywheel idea is good.  years ago I drove a john deere tractor that sometimes sounded like the engine quit, but that flywheel kept spinning and it kept pulling.
lots of good ideas that the greenies won't accept.

I think all ideas are good ideas until proven not practical. I love reading about entrepreneurs who experiment with either developing new technologies , or leveraging newly developed technologies for use in other applications.

Some of the limitations of electric cars are positives for electric tractors. According to an article at Mother Earth News, “The extra weight of batteries is a disadvantage in automobiles, but it improves tractor performance by increasing traction. And electric motors generate high torque at very low rpm, making them more effective than gas or diesel engines for the low-speed, high-power applications typical for tractors.”

Austria-based Open Energy announced a tractor completely powered by the energy of the sun. The tractors  carry photovoltaic panels that can be adjusted to catch as much sunlight as possible. Making the panels movable  increase the efficiency by 40% when compared with fixed panels. This allows the tractor to run constantly for approximately 36 hours on simple jobs such as watering or weeding. The tractor will not run as long if doing a heavier duty job (such as plowing), so the tractor is designed for those smaller energy jobs.

[mcwoodduck]

What about an electric car that has a fast change battery?
We have propane tanks we swap out at the grocery store.
What about a system of deep cycle batteries at gas stations.
You pull up and pay a fee, drop the battery and a new one in inserted.
The battery is put into a bank of chargers and off you go.

I like this idea

.
Better yet, refine on board E generation technology...I think they're getting close.
.
Incidently, there is one draw back on these hybrid or E cars...you might want to check with your local first responder rescue crews to find out why and what..
.
..TM7

My guess is hte acid, the fact that batteries can blow up, they can catch on fire and instead of one that is 12" X 8" in your car you have an  equal to 20 of them in the hybrid.

[ironglow]

As I said earlier (reply #62), instead of concentrating on the car right now...they should concentrate on the battery.  If they can get a battery pack of small size, light weight, 300 mile range and quick charge..then the electric car might be viable for much of the country.
   then of course there is to be considered..whaty fuel is used for the electric generation ?  Perhaps more efficent generation methods ?

[Dixie Dude]

I think efficient fuel cells would be a better idea.  They have natural gas fuel cells now, but last I heard they are only 40% efficient.  It is more efficient to burn it in the engine right now.  Hydrogen would be made from natural gas if we went hydrogen because it is cheaper to get the 4 hydrogen atoms off natural (CH4) and dump the carbon, than from water (H2O) with only 2 hydrogens.  So we are still right back to using natural gas which we have an abundance of right now. 
 
If they could improve the efficiency of fuel cells, then you could fill up your tank at a station with natural gas quicker than charging.  When natural gas is used in a fuel cell, the by-product is water and carbon which is collected and removed in a box.  You have to change oil, so you have to empty your carbon collector every so often.  The water is released as vapor. 

[ironglow]

  There is little doubt that some breakthroughs as mentioned above are down the road in the no too far distance.  Meanwhile, the billions of dollars we are sending to oil-rich sheikhdoms are  fungable wealth; available to develop alternatives.   Some of these oil rich kingdoms are bent on our destruction, and obviously should not be financing their skullduggery. 
   We don't need for instance, to send billions to Hugo Chavez, who hates us and is heavily involved in various plans to bring the United States down. 
 I'm sorry, but when I see a chief-of-state for the United States, continually work against the interests of the United States, even to the point of increasing our indebtedness to enrich our enemies...my suspicions are aroused.
 
         Probably the best way to fight Islamofacist terrorism...is to quit feeding it !

[mcwoodduck]

  There is little doubt that some breakthroughs as mentioned above are down the road in the no too far distance.  Meanwhile, the billions of dollars we are sending to oil-rich sheikhdoms are  fungable wealth; available to develop alternatives.   Some of these oil rich kingdoms are bent on our destruction, and obviously should not be financing their skullduggery. 
   We don't need for instance, to send billions to Hugo Chavez, who hates us and is heavily involved in various plans to bring the United States down. 
 I'm sorry, but when I see a chief-of-state for the United States, continually work against the interests of the United States, even to the point of increasing our indebtedness to enrich our enemies...my suspicions are aroused.
 
         Probably the best way to fight Islamofacist terrorism...is to quit feeding it !

.
Mmm....too much conspiracy stuff in that post IG...but here's what its all about..The USA re-inventing its way out of Depression.
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.http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,256892.0.html
.
..TM7

If mining, drilling, refining, and hauling are all middle class Union jobs and we are in a ressession, why are we not opening up new places to drill, approving new refineries that will be cleaner than current ones, not to mention the construction jobs to build and maintain refineries
If the Democrats are for the Unions and Are for the union workers we would be approving the Shovel ready jobs to put them to work and lower the price of fuel to the average person.  Clearly everything this president does is to increase the costs of fuel to Fundamentally Change America.
Lower fuel prices spawn interest in new cars, again Union based jobs that produce the steel, the tires, the cars and transprot the cars from factory to dealership. 
I do not think it is a far strech to look at policy and see what is taking place.
The Democrats have sold out the working class in favor of the Green/ Reds and are doing what they can to eliminate Union jobs.

[mcwoodduck]

OK a few things.
1) THE LEAF AND THE VOLT ARE SUBSIDIZED BY TAX DOLLARS SO THE TRUE COSTS ARE NOT VALID.
2) the platforms are idol not because of demand but because of legislation and regulation.  If  you look at a supply and demand curve when oil gets to a certain price people that were  not willing to supply it at a lower price are willing to at a higher price.
3) all of the major oil companies have plans on the books and have been awaiting approval to build new refineries to meet the demand.
We have not had a new refinery built in the country since the mid 1970's.
Clearly we have had a population increase since then and more cars on the road as well as containerized trucking that have increased the demand.  Instead we have to get fuel refined in Mexico that is poluting un regulated.
Shovel ready could have included a few refineries, power plants, and oil drilling.
But the shovel ready was less than 6% of the trillion dollars and most went to companies like solindra and not to infrastructure like roads, librarys, schools, road, bridges, refineries, and pipelines.

[BUGEYE]

The reason refineries and drilling platforms are idle is because demand doen't require more facilites
.
...TM7

as the price goes up, the demand goes down.   people are forced by the leftists to curtail the things they enjoy.  vacations etc.
leftists cannot stand for people to have fun.

[mcwoodduck]

Demand for liquid fuels is down from the 70's....they don't really need refiniries at this point, except in planning, since supply is in the sweet spot for maximum profits...just ask Exon, Cheron, Conoco....future refining like everything else will probably be offshored when possible....Cuba at some point will be a refiner for example,,,other Caribbbean locations..profits will continue to escape US taxes..
.
Big Oil thrives  on environmnetal excuses for justifying limited production to maximaze profits per unit...just research Rockefeller Foundation of squashing the Keystone...either way they win, as if the couldn't buy 99% of every Congressman's loyalty.
.
..TM7
.

If demand is down from the 70's why are we importing refined fuels from mexico and Canada?  If demand were down we would not be running the refineries at 100%  and importing refined products not to mention all of the subsitute products like Ethenol and Bio Diesel.

[scootrd]

if more refineries were built I always wondered if we would all still get stiffed like clockwork each and every year with big Jumps in prices They claim is caused by having to switch existing refineries over to Summer/Winter blends each year.

[mcwoodduck]

if more refineries were built I always wondered if we would all still get stiffed like clockwork each and every year with big Jumps in prices They claim is caused by having to switch existing refineries over to Summer/Winter blends each year.

If they would pick a national fuel grade in stead of regional and even state standards it would bring down some of the prices

[mcwoodduck]

Demand for liquid fuels is down from the 70's....they don't really need refiniries at this point, except in planning, since supply is in the sweet spot for maximum profits...just ask Exon, Cheron, Conoco....future refining like everything else will probably be offshored when possible....Cuba at some point will be a refiner for example,,,other Caribbbean locations..profits will continue to escape US taxes..
.
Big Oil thrives  on environmnetal excuses for justifying limited production to maximaze profits per unit...just research Rockefeller Foundation of squashing the Keystone...either way they win, as if the couldn't buy 99% of every Congressman's loyalty.
.
..TM7
.

If demand is down from the 70's why are we importing refined fuels from mexico and Canada?  If demand were down we would not be running the refineries at 100%  and importing refined products not to mention all of the subsitute products like Ethenol and Bio Diesel.

.
Because its a global market and Big Oil really doesn't have any allegiance to any particular country. And ethanol is a government subsidized endeavor which is responisble for increasing food prices, too. Check again for the last 2 or 3 years, leading US export has been refined petroleum products, and really no supply issues....developing countries are sucking up supply..if Americans pay more and because of very devalued $ Big Oil doesn't care; and should they?
.
This is why we need alternatives to the Big Oil petroleum culture and fast....
.
..TM7
.
..

UM really
So your telling me that "BIG OIL" ships raw material to the US and refines it at the highest cost and then ships refined products  back across the globe that are volitile to 3rd world countries when it would be cheaper to build a refinery there and ship raw product there and refine at a lower cost? while importing refined products from those same 3rd world countries.
You can not havr it both ways.
BIG OIL can not be a both an evil money grubbing group and then being a stupid entity that wastes moeny in some convoluted plot to waste billions in profit shipping stuff all over the world.
A company's sole goal is to make a profit.  To do that they cut costs and shipping refined products is dangerous and risky adding costs. 
I think you have drunk the conspericy koolaid.  the only conspericy out there is the "BIG GOVERNMENT" one that you seem to ignore.

[scootrd]

A tad off topic but not far..

I read an article in Forbes or Newsweek or Time mag sitting in dentist waiting room a short while back.
Japanese companies buy our standing timber , their own subsidiary companies then harvest the trees , transport to San Francisco I think it was, then they load it on Japanese ships bound for Japan , while at sea it is milled, kiln dried etc.. and furniture is manufactured (all while on board the ship). Then once it reaches Japan a portion of the furniture is sold back to US through stores like pier one imports etc..

How Bizarre is that .

So I could have a table that came from timber in Colorado, milled and manufactured at sea and was exported from Japan back to US. Man this flat world economy just gets weirder and weirder.

[mcwoodduck]

Is that gas, gasoline or natural gas.
I know we sell a lot of natural gas to other parts of the world like Japan.

[magooch]

I want to see the factory ship that processes and then manufactures products from raw timber.  Does anyone have any idea how big that ship would have to be?  I'm not saying it ain't so, but I know how big a mill has to be just to cut timber into lumber.  I also don't see very much furniture manufactured from pine and Douglas Fir--maybe some redwood, but that would be outdoor furniture.  Sugar Pine is the only pine that I am aware of that anyone would use for furniture.
 
I live where a lot of timber is shipped from and it is all Doug Fir, which is not really suitable for furniture as it is primarily used for constuction lumber.  The Japanese do buy the best Douglas Firs and are the main buyers of the giant old growth.  Around here, most of that comes from Weyerhauser.  The federal timber lands are more into saving the trees so they can rot on the stump and feed the woodpeckers.

[BUGEYE]

I want to see the factory ship that processes and then manufactures products from raw timber.  Does anyone have any idea how big that ship would have to be?  I'm not saying it ain't so, but I know how big a mill has to be just to cut timber into lumber.  I also don't see very much furniture manufactured from pine and Douglas Fir--maybe some redwood, but that would be outdoor furniture.  Sugar Pine is the only pine that I am aware of that anyone would use for furniture.
 
I live where a lot of timber is shipped from and it is all Doug Fir, which is not really suitable for furniture as it is primarily used for constuction lumber.  The Japanese do buy the best Douglas Firs and are the main buyers of the giant old growth.  Around here, most of that comes from Weyerhauser.  The federal timber lands are more into saving the trees so they can rot on the stump and feed the woodpeckers.

yeah, after reading scootrds post, I cranked up google and couldn't find a thing about it.
maybe scootrd had got a whiff of laughing gas.

[scootrd]

The article said it was a perpetual furniture shop at sea. I'll call dentist office and see if any of the office gals know the article or the magazine that may have had it since I assume they are the ones who put the mags out in the waiting area .

[BUGEYE]

The article said it was a perpetual furniture shop at sea. I'll call dentist office and see if any of the office gals know the article or the magazine that may have had it since I assume they are the ones who put the mags out in the waiting area .

I saw a lot of ships leave Coos Bay with the hold full of logs and stacked high on deck.
anything less than a full load would not pay to ship.  that leaves no room for kilns, mills, and workshops.
could your article have been about a future super ship that would be big enough??

[scootrd]

The article said it was a perpetual furniture shop at sea. I'll call dentist office and see if any of the office gals know the article or the magazine that may have had it since I assume they are the ones who put the mags out in the waiting area .

I saw a lot of ships leave Coos Bay with the hold full of logs and stacked high on deck.
anything less than a full load would not pay to ship.  that leaves no room for kilns, mills, and workshops.
could your article have been about a future super ship that would be big enough??

I don't remember all the ins and outs of the article , but it mentioned the Japanese didn't want the logs which I think came from BC , and pacific NW milled in US because of something to do with the Japanese use the metric system when milling.
Their 2x4's are milled in metric measurements etc.

I'll call Kristen (office dental tech) today and see if she has time to look through the waiting room mags to find the article.

[ironglow]

  Back to the thread opener...Algae...
 
   I wonder when Obammy starts to come down hard on " Big Algae" ?