IMR 4759 Powder Charge Question

[John Boy]

The 1948 Ideal Manual recommends 16.0gr DuPont 4759 charge for the Ideal 311413, 170gr bullet in a 30-06.
Would there be any negative impacts if the same powder charge of SR 4759 and bullet was used for 308 Winchester and 30-30 rounds?

[Dand]

Whew!  Good to ask before doing. Have you looked in a modern Lyman reloading manual?


There is an awful big difference in case capacity between an '06 and a 30-30.  Get a modern manual and follow it carefully - DON'T speculate.


Your question scared me enough I decided to get out my Lyman manual 48.


 I don't see the bullet you list but comparing SR 4759 loads in those carts for Lyman 311041 (nominal 173 gr) max for 30-30 is 17.7 grains,  max for 308 is 27.7 gr and for 30-06 its 31.5 gr.  AND DON'T START AT MAX.


I don't have my old Lyman moulds reference but use at least the closest heavier weight cast bullet in a modern manual go by.


HTH

[John Boy]

Dand - sorry for the typo.  The Ideal 311413 'Squibb' bullet is listed in the 1949 Edition of the Handbook on pg 75

Here's my thought logic:
The 30-06 case is ~ 2.5" and the 30-30 and 308 Winchester are ~ 2.05"
Yes, the 4759 powder has a burn rate of 114 vrs the recommended powders for the 30-30 & 308 that have burn rates of 131-140-151-170 and 182.  IMR loading data for these lower burn rates run the range 21gr of 4198 to 30gr of 4320 for the 30-30.  For the 308, the powder charges range from 39gr for 3031 to 41.5gr for 4320. 

IMR says for the 4759 ...

This bulky handgun powder works great in the magnums, but really shines as a reduced load propellant for rifle cartridges

But looking in the tables - failed to find 4759 powder charges for any of the reduced  load propellant for rifle cartridges

So, have an email into IMR for any of these 'reduced loads', specifically the 30-30 & 308 using SR 4759 using 16 to 16.5gr and a bullet weight of 170gr

Then I looked around on the Internet for any information on the 4759 and here's what I found for a post on Paco Kelly's website for a 2008 post...

homefront,
4759 is very similar in burning rate to 4227. In the cartridges you mentioned, I have used 4759 in the .357 and .30-30.
11-12 grs in the .357 with a 158 gr. bullet is a capacity load and does 1,400 f.p.s. in my marlin with excellent accuracy.
14 grs. in the .30-30 under a 170-180 gr; cast bullet is a fine mid range load (1,500 f.p.s.) :mrgreen:

w30wcf

Just so happens that w30wcf is a close friend - gun crank & historian ... so I called him. His answer was that the 16gr charge and the 311413 would be in the 1600 fps range and I won't have any safety issues.  Plus the accuracy should be pretty good using a harder alloy and I cast the bullets from a Bhn 15.4 batch of wheel weights

[Larry L]

From an old DuPont manual, for SR4759 using JACKETED bullets.
308- 180gr bullet max load 26.5 grs- velocity 2085'ps
30-30 170gr bullet max load 18.0 grs- velocity 1605'ps


I'd reduce this data down for starting loads. Be mindful that any reduced load in a rimless cartridge will eventually shorten the datum line on the brass from the low pressure and the firing pin strike hammering the brass forward. I usually will only load a reduced round in tired or throw away brass or cycle it out after the 5th loading. You cannot refire form it....or so they tell me. I don't have a rifle I care to try it on.

[quickdtoo]

JB, the 3rd Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook lists 30-30 Win data for SR 4759 for a 170gr cast bullet(#31141) as 15.5gr start to 17.7gr Max, COL 2.510" CCI200.

308 Win data for the same bullet is 21.5gr start to 27.7gr Max, COL 2.617".

Tim 

[John Boy]

Tim, you are amazing  ... as always!
I never thought to look in the Lyman 4th (don't have the 3rd).  Had this fixation for the charge from the Ideal Handbook
Interesting that the charge for the Win 308 is more than the 30 WCF with the case volumes being the same
Thanks Again

[Smokin Joe]

the charge for the Win 308 is more than the 30 WCF with the case volumes being the same

Where did you get the idea that the .30-30 and .308 have equal case volumes??

[quickdtoo]

Good point Joe! 30-30 Win case capacity is 44.4gr water, 308 Win is 55.8gr water.

Tim

[LanceR]

I'd call Hodgdon for advice on this.  The two powders they recommend for reduced loads are H4895 which can be used down to 60% of the max charge for any listed cartridge and Trail Boss.  When I was writing an article on reduced loads they stated that the max charge for Trail Boss was whatever would fit in a case without compression.  The directions are to mark where the base of the bullet will be in the loaded cartridge (jacketed or lead) and fill the case to that point.  Weigh that charge and you have your max charge.  70% of that is the starting load.

http://hodgdon.com/PDF/Trail%20Boss%20Reduced%20Loads%20R&P.pdf

http://hodgdon.com/PDF/H4895%20Reduced%20Rifle%20Loads.pdf

Hodgdon no longer publishes reduced load data for SR4759 and specifically does not recommend it for reduced loads.  I know the IMR powder profile page still references SR4759 as a reduced charge rifle load but Hodgdon no longer recommends it as such.

I know there are a lot of knowledgeable folks here but powder formulations change over time and I would be very leery of using data that old.  Hodgdon will email you whatever you ask for.  They have a lot more data than is in the manual or online.  The phone number is:

913-362-9455

Lance

[zoner]

32 Win Special has basically the same capacity as 30-30 and I've been shootin a 170 gr PB cast bullet over 15 grs of 4759 for a couple years now. I get 1600 fps with no leading.It shoots better than I can hold it....it's pretty much the only load I shoot in that gun. Might be a good starting point for your 30-30........Mike

[muznut 54]

I know that the new lot plastic jug has less power and pressure than the old lot metal can,in a smokeless muzzleloader anyway.

[Ranch13]

The 1948 Ideal Manual recommends 16.0gr DuPont 4759 charge for the Ideal 311413, 170gr bullet in a 30-06.
Would there be any negative impacts if the same powder charge of SR 4759 and bullet was used for 308 Winchester and 30-30 rounds?

Probably not, but as per usual, when in doubt drop the load 10% and work back up.
4759 is an awful lot like 5744 (altho I don't like it as well) it's pretty flexible as to how low of a charge you can use.
As the 311413 is a terribly poiny bugger, there's not much data for it in the 30-30, and what little there is cautions to not use it in a tubular magazine.
 Also John keep in mind that even tho cases may have similar internal capacity, the taper, shoulder radius and neck can change the burn rate characteristics of all smokeless powders... You ain't messin with the real stuff when you step out into this world no more.

[John Boy]

Thanks Don for the information...
* I know there is zero current rifle loading data using the IMR 4759 even though Hodgdon says it can be used for reduced rifle loads.  I sent them an email - NADA
* As for the 30-30 reloads, I talked with John Kort (w44wcf) about using the 16 or 16.5 IMR 4759 charge.  He said the fps would be a  tad over 1600 and the pressure would be in safe haven.  He has shot the charge using 14grs of 4759 with a velocity

14 grs. in the .30-30 under a 170-180 gr; cast bullet is a fine mid range load (1,500 f.p.s.) 

Mike, I'll load some of the 30-30's up with the 15grs as you are shooting for a comparison too

For the 308 Win's - plan to use the same bullet weight 5744 loading data that is in the Lyman 4th Edition Casting Handbook ....  that quickdtoo reminded me would be a good source 

And yep, your right - unless there is current loading data - the smokeless loads ain't like shooting black powder.  I've been playing with the new Alliant 300-MP (pistol powder) that has no rifle caliber data, even from their Tech Support.  John Lewis on ASSRA has got cloverleafs at 200yds with his 38-55.  I'm carefully WORKING Up the loads for accuracy with the 8.15x46R (180gr stop ring) and the 32-40 (320gr Ideal bullets).  Got the 100yd charges shooting good, but haven't locked onto the charge for 200yds ... which opens up like an umbrella using the 100yd charge

And gents - thanks for correcting my stupidity about the 30-30 and 308 case volumes being the same.  MAJOR oversight on my part ... like a total  on my part because I know better!