another one came home.

[George Foster]

Lloyd, 
 
When you go to a registered BR Shoot the Rem rifle you see competing are in the factory class and that is dominated by Savage.

[Swampman]

Lloyd, 
 
When you go to a registered BR Shoot the Rem rifle you see competing are in the factory class and that is dominated by Savage.

Because they are cheap and easy to swap barrels on.  I dislike a Savage almost as much as a Howa.  You just can't beat a Remington for hunting.

[George Foster]

Lloyd, 
 
The other rifles that dominate in factory class are your Ruger 77 PPCs and Sako PPCs.  For three or four years a yearly BR shoot offered a $100 bounty to anyone who won factory class with a Rem, it was never claimed.
 
Actually there is nothing wrong with the bedding system it is easy to glassbed and then float the barrel on the 77's, and as John Barness says since Ruger stopped using Wilson barrels and went with their own there is nothing wrong with the barrels.

[Swampman]

Let's hope so....I'll know tomorrow.

[R.W.Dale]

I've owned several skeleton stocked ruger m77"s over the years and NOT ONCE have I been disappointed in their accuracy and I'm VERY picky about how my guns shoot.

The two piece bolt hornets and 44 can be a bit iffy but in my EXPERIENCE crf rugers take a back seat to nobody including rem in terms of accuracy.

Some of my latest groups I shot getting ready for deer season.  Between a 223vt and my all weather 30/06 and yes that's at 200yds+



Another example I found in my photobucket

[Swampman]

My first good boltgun many years ago was an M77 in .30-06.  Out of the box it would do about 5"-6" at 100 yards.  In only 6 weeks of tinkering I got it down to less than 1/2 MOA.  I wish they wern't like this because I love the looks and feel of the M77.  I just don't think accuracy should be that much work.  I've owned a truck load of Rugers since.  Like a dolt I keep trying.

[R.W.Dale]

I don't know what you guys are doing wrong. Mabye its the wood stocks or something because I keep buying the zytel stocked all weathers doing nothing but installation of a good scope and working up a load and they keep shooting these staggeringly good groups.

So good they've moved me away from being a savage afficanido as they shoot just as good and unlike the push feed brands have a solid feel you don't get from a bolt soldered togeather from an assortment of pieces.

Now one thing I have noticed is that especially the 30/06 above hates boat tailed bullets.



I now have a 223 version of the above rifle that shoots just as well but alas I don't have any pics yet.

[Swampman]

I'd quit hunting before I'd shoot a boat paddle.  My new Ruger has proven me right again.  A solid 2 MOA rifle.

[R.W.Dale]

I'd quit hunting before I'd shoot a boat paddle.  My new Ruger has proven me right again.  A solid 2 MOA rifle.

Mabye its you? Don't take this wrong but what kinds of groups do you get from your "good" rifles?


Reliable 2moa from a solid ruggedly built carbine in 100 degree heat isn't exactly terrible ya know. You will never miss a critter because a gun shoots 2 moa instead of one.

You had far far better luck today with your ruger than I did my encore if it helps you feel better. All I got was nice 4" vertical strings. What loads and ranges were you shooting.

[Swampman]

My Model 700s will shoot 1/2 MOA or less on a regular basis.

I was shooting factory Winchester 150 grain Power Points.  maybe a handload will do better......who knows?

[Lloyd Smale]

Dale maybe you wont miss a deer with a 2moa gun but i do crop damage shooting with my bolt guns and many shots are out to 400 yards and even a bit more. At 400 yards a 2 moa gun is shooting 8 inch groups. That definately can mean the differnce in a well placed shot and one thats to far back or forward. factor in the wind and the fact theres no bench out in the field and it makes a 2moa gun very marginal. I dont feel confindent in a rifle thats going to be used out past 200 yards unless its shooting moa. that been said i to have had a couple of the boat paddle rugers, all stainless. They have shot pretty well for me. For the most part ive had good luck with any stainless ruger and personaly i kind of like the boat paddle stock especially if you put wood inserts in the forearm and grip. It may be a bit differnt looking but it grows on a guy. there also a bit heavy but there a fairly rigid plastic stock. Still think there but ugly on a blued gun though.

I'd quit hunting before I'd shoot a boat paddle.  My new Ruger has proven me right again.  A solid 2 MOA rifle.

Mabye its you? Don't take this wrong but what kinds of groups do you get from your "good" rifles?


Reliable 2moa from a solid ruggedly built carbine in 100 degree heat isn't exactly terrible ya know. You will never miss a critter because a gun shoots 2 moa instead of one.

You had far far better luck today with your ruger than I did my encore if it helps you feel better. All I got was nice 4" vertical strings. What loads and ranges were you shooting.

[tacotime]

That's all pretty disappointing about the Rugers.  Mine have shot well though, but I'm not shooting matches.  Still it's an American company that goes out on a limb and offers chamberings no one else tries, and sales overall are very good at the company. 
 
Still love my little Ruger #3 in 45-70.  One of the neatest and most versatile rifles around, IMHO (yes, I took off the barrel band and cut flat the curved buttplate, now quite comfortable to shoot).  I can't say it will out shoot my 700, but it doesn't have to either.  I don't even think there ever was a 700 in .45-70.

[R.W.Dale]

That's fine that you feel that way but the fact of the matter remains that a 2moa gun will stay inside an 8" kill zone at 400 yards all day long and that if the bullet goes outside that its the shooter that put it there.

Do you regularly shoot carbines with factory ammo and low powered optics at 400yds.


Swampman. 1/2 moa Remingtons shooting factory ammo....pardon me if I say mmmmkay whatever.

[Swampman]

Remington 180 grain Core-Lokt factory ammo all day long.  They are less than $20.00 a box and more than enough for most game animals.

[R.W.Dale]

Remington 180 grain Core-Lokt factory ammo all day long.  They are less than $20.00 a box and more than enough for most game animals.

You do realize that the trick to exaggeration is to keep the claims somewhat believable.

You might wow the young 20 something guy buying his first box of "shells" next to you at the gun store. But trust me anyone with a modicum of shooting experience knows. Now I don't have a problem with your outlandish fanboiism directed towards those in Ilion. But when you use your fantasies to bismirch other quality makers I begin to take exception.

Now I can say this but without any skin in the game and in doing so its just as hollow as your accuracy claims. But I'll step up and back things up on my end.

If you can shoot TWO five shot groups that measure half an inch or less on one piece of standard printer paper at 100 yds using rem 180g factory Remington ammo from a stock barreled sporter weight rem700  within 15minutes and send it to a third gbo member for verification.   I will send you a $20 check to buy you another box of ammunition.

BUT you have to post the targets that don't make the cut. Doing it with one target submitted will look very suspect to not only me but everyone else.

You have a nice day

[Swampman]

I only shoot one round about every 10 minutes.  As does anyone who knows what they are doing when shooting a deer rifle.  The Rugers are nice but they just don't shoot worth a crap out of the box.  I'll never buy another.

[R.W.Dale]

I only shoot one round about every 10 minutes.  As does anyone who knows what they are doing when shooting a deer rifle.

That's what I thought. Let me guess three shot groups too?

[Swampman]

.

[Swampman]

The Rugers were shot the same way as the Remingtons.  The thing is even though you're really trying to change the subject.  The Remingtons will always out shoot the Rugers by at least one MOA.  The Rugers are the pits out of the box.

[R.W.Dale]

The Rugers were shot the same way as the Remingtons.  The thing is even though you're really trying to change the subject.  The Remingtons will always out shoot the Rugers by at least one MOA.  The Rugers are the pits out of the box.

My experience differs from yours and the thing is my claims are somewhat believable and I have some evidence supporting them.

We all know and its rather sad that the only person you're fooling is yourself.

You'll be going on my ignore list as you have nothing to add to any firearm discussion worth me reading. You have a great day shooting your one shot groups. Something I'm sure even a Remington can excel at. Provided its not an autoloader

[Lloyd Smale]

maybe if a guy has a bench set up and a gun rest so steady that he insures that his trigger breaks with the crosshairs right dead center in that 8 inch kill zone and you doped the wind and the range EXACTLY. 30 yards off in your range estimation. 10mph off on your wind guageing and then add an 8 inch group into the equation and your eventually going to wound or miss deer.  Me ive shot enough deer from field positions at long range to know that perfection just doesnt happen every time in the real world. Me, Ill take all the accuracy i can get at those ranges.

That's fine that you feel that way but the fact of the matter remains that a 2moa gun will stay inside an 8" kill zone at 400 yards all day long and that if the bullet goes outside that its the shooter that put it there.

Do you regularly shoot carbines with factory ammo and low powered optics at 400yds.


Swampman. 1/2 moa Remingtons shooting factory ammo....pardon me if I say mmmmkay whatever.

[Swampman]

The Rugers were shot the same way as the Remingtons.  The thing is even though you're really trying to change the subject.  The Remingtons will always out shoot the Rugers by at least one MOA.  The Rugers are the pits out of the box.

My experience differs from yours and the thing is my claims are somewhat believable and I have some evidence supporting them.

We all know and its rather sad that the only person you're fooling is yourself.

You'll be going on my ignore list as you have nothing to add to any firearm discussion worth me reading. You have a great day shooting your one shot groups. Something I'm sure even a Remington can excel at. Provided its not an autoloader

Glad I'm on your ignore list.  It's safer than calling me a liar.  I told you the God's truth and you know I'm right.
 

[Harry Snippe]

I only shoot one round about every 10 minutes.  As does anyone who knows what they are doing when shooting a deer rifle.  The Rugers are nice but they just don't shoot worth a crap out of the box.  I'll never buy another.

You did not say if your getting a build up of copper in the in the barrel first time out . Then I found the blue box of Federal in 165/180 gr. to start a new barrel worked out the best , and I never labeled a gun until I shot about a hundred rounds though the barrel cleaning it along the way .Done that with Browning / Tikka/Savage, as well as Winchester .
Some guys rushto get a new gun home- to take the stock off, and see if the stock is touching the barrel .Maybe you too might need to have a look .
After checking the rail and mounts to see if they are tight , and the barrel clean, I would give the cheap federal's a try, and see if the rifle will settle in .Then mass produced rifles coming off the assemby lines as new cars made in the last twenty years do have some quirks . Even the remington line I find .
The ruger Mark 2 my wife has is about fifteen years old . Other than some trigger work this rifle in 06, has always been a MOA gun .I have a tikka for a few years now, that never saw a screw driver other than to mount the scope .  Never give up until you given it an honest try .
Another thing !!! I find I need to get used to shooting a different make of rifle .Hense the 100 rounds before I think of reloads . It gives the gun barrel a chance to settle down as well as the shooter getting the feel for the fit of the new gun .

[Harry Snippe]

I only shoot one round about every 10 minutes.  As does anyone who knows what they are doing when shooting a deer rifle.

What some of might not know is Swampy posted on the bolt action forum as well. Here he states the gun has a scope with heavy cross hairs . Wonder if the remington 700's shoot 1/2 MOA with that scope .Might just be the rifle can do better

[Brithunter]

A heavy or as some call it European reticle is no handicap to shooting small groups.



Group shot on the 100 yards firing point of Bisleys Short Sibeia range from my 30-30 Medwell & Perritt rifle using s 6x42 scope with a European heavy "Plex" reticle. I don't believe I had acquired the Schmidt & Bender 6x42 when this group was shot it had an unbranded 6x42 scope fitted.


 One just has to think a bit and use a repeatable aiming point on paper. I believe my aiming point was the bottom of the bull indicated by the solid white line by the broken white line this gives about a 2" high zero at 100 yards. Further testing revealed that the 30-30 hand loads didn't need this so the zero was brought down to 1" high at 100 yards.


In the past I have also adjusted the scope to shoot a bit higher and aimed at the bottom of the black circle like one does with iron sights.


 It's not rocket science but it does show a certain persons total lack of knowledge but that is not surprising.


As for the new Savage shooting 2 MOA well it meets Remington's acceptance standards then as funnily enough as the e-mail from Remington I have here says: 


Industry standard is 2 inches or less for hunting rifles. Proper ammunition and optics should make this very easy.


So there you have it swampan just as good as your beloved model 700    or are you suggesting that the Remington help service person is telling lies?

[Swampman]

2 MOA is not just as good as 1/2 MOA at least not in a free country.

[Swampman]

I only shoot one round about every 10 minutes.  As does anyone who knows what they are doing when shooting a deer rifle.  The Rugers are nice but they just don't shoot worth a crap out of the box.  I'll never buy another.

You did not say if your getting a build up of copper in the in the barrel first time out . Then I found the blue box of Federal in 165/180 gr. to start a new barrel worked out the best , and I never labeled a gun until I shot about a hundred rounds though the barrel cleaning it along the way .Done that with Browning / Tikka/Savage, as well as Winchester .
Some guys rushto get a new gun home- to take the stock off, and see if the stock is touching the barrel .Maybe you too might need to have a look .
After checking the rail and mounts to see if they are tight , and the barrel clean, I would give the cheap federal's a try, and see if the rifle will settle in .Then mass produced rifles coming off the assemby lines as new cars made in the last twenty years do have some quirks . Even the remington line I find .
The ruger Mark 2 my wife has is about fifteen years old . Other than some trigger work this rifle in 06, has always been a MOA gun .I have a tikka for a few years now, that never saw a screw driver other than to mount the scope .  Never give up until you given it an honest try .
Another thing !!! I find I need to get used to shooting a different make of rifle .Hense the 100 rounds before I think of reloads . It gives the gun barrel a chance to settle down as well as the shooter getting the feel for the fit of the new gun .

I completely agree, I'm going to continue shooting it with cheap ammo and see if it improves.  The barrel is a pretty heavy profile and floated.

[Harry Snippe]

A heavy or as some call it European reticle is no handicap to shooting small groups.



Group shot on the 100 yards firing point of Bisleys Short Sibeia range from my 30-30 Medwell & Perritt rifle using s 6x42 scope with a European heavy "Plex" reticle. I don't believe I had acquired the Schmidt & Bender 6x42 when this group was shot it had an unbranded 6x42 scope fitted.


 One just has to think a bit and use a repeatable aiming point on paper. I believe my aiming point was the bottom of the bull indicated by the solid white line by the broken white line this gives about a 2" high zero at 100 yards. Further testing revealed that the 30-30 hand loads didn't need this so the zero was brought down to 1" high at 100 yards.


In the past I have also adjusted the scope to shoot a bit higher and aimed at the bottom of the black circle like one does with iron sights.


 It's not rocket science but it does show a certain persons total lack of knowledge but that is not surprising.


As for the new Savage shooting 2 MOA well it meets Remington's acceptance standards then as funnily enough as the e-mail from Remington I have here says: 


Industry standard is 2 inches or less for hunting rifles. Proper ammunition and optics should make this very easy.


So there you have it swampan just as good as your beloved model 700    or are you suggesting that the Remington help service person is telling lies?

Yes I use the same hold with Peep sites .With a 6 o clock hold on a black circle it works pretty good ,same situation with a dot sight .
I have yet to get the groups possable with the Duplex crosshair .

[Brithunter]

2 MOA is not just as good as 1/2 MOA at least not in a free country.

I agree 1/2 MOA is better but then that's why Remington have a 2 MOA acceptance standard.


As for free nope the U.S is for sale heck if you have enough money you can even buy your way into the White House as president. Just look who is sitting there now!

[Swampman]

Because they know that 99% of those that shoot can't shoot I guess.  Mine shoot 1/2 MOA or better with factory ammo.