Rifled Cannon Liners (Sleeves) in 1.000" Bore size Coming Soon...........

[KABAR2]

Tracy,

A suggested source for heavy card board tube would be a carpet store.   They throw those carpet rolls away.

Another source is any company in Colorado that does production sewing these tubes will be smaller dia. and better suited to your needs I have shipped 4 or 5 20 mm cannon barrels this way with wood plugs screwed in each end never had one fail until DD's shipment ..... but his had projo's in with the barrel section....
.
As to why we want the 1.75 bore barrel..... because you didn't offer a 2" or a 3 inch! that's why.... 
Just wish it was longer.......
 

[Indygunworks]

I also think 1.75 is popular solely because it was the largest of the options.  If i were going to spend the money on a rifled barrel like that i would want it as large as economically possible.  If you were to offer one 3 inch's, that would have been my choice as well.  Also, its not of any real relevance that 1.75 isn't a common bore size.  If i were buying something of this quality and capable of this accuracy i would probably invest in the capabilities of making my own projectiles so the bore size would be close to a moot point.

I think you should make another poll, a theoretical one anyways, and include MUCH larger bore sizes.  I think you will see the heavy margin for the 1.75 tube shrink as the people who voted that way space themselves out amongst the larger sizes that they would truly desire.  Myself, i would prefer the soda can size myself, but as others have stated would prefer a longer length.

[Double D]

Since this is a rifle bore for rifle projectiles there is no need for a golf ball bore size!

[MKlein]

If you make another poll, add a choice for 1.5" Ellsworth 15 groove

[seacoastartillery]

     Cannon Cocker, that is exactly why the interest in the 1.75" bore, only nobody will admit it now.  90% of the cannons built for this group of the so called "golf ball bore" had 1.75" dia. bores.  But, if you want to know the real reason why no one is interested now, it's a very basic reason, money.  So, all these responses based on the bigger is better concept will ABSOLUTELY disappear when the cost of the 3.00" rifled sleeve is known.  The average cost today is $1,500 for sleeves of this size.  Even if we were at the lower end, $1,000, there would be ZERO orders.  Even if there was one or two, so what.  One order does not a business make. I think we were much smarter in the first 6 years of our participation in the GBO Mortar and Cannon forum.  That is to actively promote nothing, to just do it for fun.  And it is still fun, so we will continue, but we won't waste our time making rifled scale artillery sleeves unless we get a bunch of PMs very quickly.  As far as longer tubes go, the big question is why?  30" handles all the 1/3 and 1/2 scale field artillery and also the 1/6 scale seacoast artillery too.  The same with the 1.75" at 43"long.  No, we aren't building a new rifling machine, only to receive zero orders when the extra cost is added to the previous price.  So we will give it 3 weeks more, but that's it. 

Mike and Tracy

P.S.   Thanks to the folks who suggested types of cardboard tubes to consider, we will.

[seacoastartillery]

    Here is a brief update on the 1.000" Rifled Sleeves (liners) that we are building for GBO members.  We have 7 tubes to rifle, total  All except for one are being built on speculation.  The cost on these is $399 ea. This size is particularly suited to building rifled cannon tubes in 1/3  to 1/2 scale. These are economical guns to shoot, using less than one ounce of powder, but with a historical sized and shaped solid bolt ahead of the powder, a 9 oz. projectile traveling at 1,300 fps has 15% MORE Muzzle Energy than the Mighty 50 Cal. BMG round with a 750 grain bullet going 2,750 fps!! Those of you who have served in the U.S. Military know what a large disturbance is caused out at 1,000 yards or even 2,000 by the impact of these heavy machine gun projectiles.  It is hard to believe, but we have observed more than 275 of our 1.000" projectiles impact the hard, high plains prairie at those ranges and the effect is spectacular.  Geysers of dirt from 3 to 10 feet high are seen at 1,000 yards upon impact of almost every shot.
 
     So put a rifled cannon in your future plans and order a liner today, so it will be ready to incorporate when your tube is ready for sleeve insertion. You'll be glad you did.  When we have these 1.000" sleeves all rifled and breech plugs welded in 3 to 4 weeks, we will be delivering them in the order in which checks or money orders were received.  Only then will be be building new Rifling Heads, new hook-cutters, sleeve tube "V" supports, new indexing collars, etc. for the rifling of those 1.7500" dia. tubes that we purchased a year ago. I am already working on a heavily illustrated comparison between the Hotchkiss Revolving Cannon tubes and projectiles used for Anti-Torpedo Boat work and our 1.750" Projectile.  Before we publish all this fascinating information, we will make a 1.750 Cal. Projectile (44.45mm) a 2.5 Pdr., 1880 style and you can see that this size fits right in between the Hotchkiss 1.65" 42mm Mountain Gun projectile, a 2 Pdr. and the second largest Hotchkiss revolving cannon projectile, a 1.85" (47mm)  3 Pdr.
 
Regards,
 
Tracy & Mike
 

[GGaskill]

So I have ordered a 1" bore rifled sleeve from Seacoast.  Its cost is non-trivial but very much the same as the Krieger cut rifled barrel of only .284" bore and similar length I bought a couple of months ago.  Quality is not cheap.

I have decided that I want a challenge with this liner so I am planning to build an approximately 1/3 scale version of the 3.2" breech loading rifle of 1885/1890.  This is not going to happen overnight as I need to collect construction data before beginning but it is "in the queue," so to speak.  The image is an 1885 model from Fields of Thunder.

[Zulu]

So I have ordered a 1" bore rifled sleeve from Seacoast.  Its cost is non-trivial but very much the same as the Krieger cut rifled barrel of only .284" bore and similar length I bought a couple of months ago.  Quality is not cheap.

I have decided that I want a challenge with this liner so I am planning to build an approximately 1/3 scale version of the 3.2" breech loading rifle of 1885/1890.  This is not going to happen overnight as I need to collect construction data before beginning but it is "in the queue," so to speak.  The image is an 1885 model from Fields of Thunder.

George,
You do like a challenge.  That is going to take some time!
Nice choice.
Zulu

[Victor3]

I have decided that I want a challenge with this liner so I am planning to build an approximately 1/3 scale version of the 3.2" breech loading rifle of 1885/1890. 

Cool.


Ya know, once one has the plans and materials together, it's nearly as easy to make two as it is to make one. 

[Double D]

    Here is a brief update on the 1.000" Rifled Sleeves (liners) that we are building for GBO members.  We have 7 tubes to rifle, total  All except for one are being built on speculation.  The cost on these is $399 ea.
Regards,
 
Tracy & Mike

Are you guys  kidding me!!!!!  I am the only one smart enough on this board to buy one of these things!   You guys must be real slow!  These things are not found everywhere.   $400!!!!!  Go price one of these in 1 inch bore from Krieger or  Pacnor!  Or even look for a surplus 25mm barrel.  And none of these barrel have original style rifling.

If I didn't have a project for one of these tubes, I would have bought one anyway and  started looking around for a project.   

I have a smooth bore  Parrot rifle barrel that has been sitting in the corner 28 years ago.  This barrel was made from La Salle 1144 Ebony Stress proof steel.  It was the new magic steel for gun barrels.   There has been a lot of controversy over this steel and whether it is safe for gun barrels.  The argument continues.  As a result because of the doubtful safety of this barrel,  it and its unfinished carriage sit in the corner in my  my basement.
Well things are about to change!

Mike and Tracy I would give these guys about 2 weeks to wake up and then put an Ad in the  Artilleryman.   

[Cannon Cocker]

Well, I still can't decide what to make with this rifled sleeve, but it's going to be something special when it's finished.  Can anyone think of any other guns that could be made form this liner that haven't already been mentioned.  The French 75mm (see link) would be a good candidate.  What else?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_de_75_mod%C3%A8le_1897

[Victor3]

    Here is a brief update on the 1.000" Rifled Sleeves (liners) that we are building for GBO members.  We have 7 tubes to rifle, total  All except for one are being built on speculation.  The cost on these is $399 ea.
Regards,
 
Tracy & Mike

Are you guys  kidding me!!!!!  I am the only one smart enough on this board to buy one of these things!   You guys must be real slow! These things are not found everywhere.   $400!!!!!  Go price one of these in 1 inch bore from Krieger or  Pacnor!  Or even look for a surplus 25mm barrel.  And none of these barrel have original style rifling.

Hush! I'm already teetering on the edge and I aint got no extra $400 layin' around!

[Double D]

If you guys want to miss a bargain,  that is good for me, I may buy second one for the  Cairo Gun....that sound like a good idea...

M&T Check for a second will go out in next Monday's mail, will it be ready for pick-up with the other one?

[KABAR2]

I'm still holding out for the 1.75 but at the moment austerity measures are in place.... my workplace has put us on a 24 hour week     so survival mode is in force at the moment..... I am hopeful that things will pick up again..... at the moment I am exploring other avenues for making extra income..... having 4 day weekends gives me plenty of time for projects......

[seacoastartillery]

     Sorry to hear about your work situation, Allen; I've been there many times over the last 40 years, but it is never pleasant.  Keep your chin up!

   Victor,  I have one new suggestion as to a type of cannon that would be an appropriate host for a 1.000" rifled sleeve.  The very first 3 Pdr. in the long list of anti-torpedo-boat guns that carried the moniker, "Quick Firing" Guns with which all the cruisers and battleships of the late 1800s and 1890s were armed, was the  3 Pdr. Hotchkiss Q.F. Gun.  of 1886.  Some British warships had 7 of them mounted in crow's nests or fighting tops.  Everyone bought some, even the Russians. The fast moving torpedo boats were the scourge of the age and no large warship commander wanted to be defenseless against them.  So, Victor3, what say you.   

   Take a look at that photo, isn't that a beauty?  THAT would be a wonderful addition to anyone's artillery collection.  You can call it a half scale, after all it's pretty close at 54% of the original.  Sure it was a self contained cartridge gun, but there are many ways to get around that.  Three are these:  Machine simpler brass cases to fit the bolts or machine a short brass case for obturation and make it a bag-loader or make it a M.L. with radial vent and replicate the breech with vertical sliding block et al. Any way you make this historic gun, it will look COOL!! .............and Function........and Shoot too!  Victor, With your machining expertise, this should be duck-soup.
 
 

    Take a look at this photo, WOW, I want one!

This photo has been taken by Rémi Kaupp (User:Korrigan) and released under the license(s) stated below.  You are free to use it for any purpose as long as you credit me and follow the terms of the license, Multi-license with GFDL and Creative Commons CC-BY-SA.   It was taken on 23 June 2007 in the  Musee de la Marine, Paris.






Thanks again for your orders, Double D.,  They both will be ready for pick-up when we see you in late March.  What an excellent choice for a host gun.  I should have thought of that!  You can't go wrong with a 42 Pdr.  After all, having  7" dia. rifled bores of the James Rifling System, they were loved by both sides in that conflict.  In the South, Commander John M. Brooke created his own Brooke rifles in 7"Cal.  One of those big Confederate guns became our most popular premium product, the 7-Inch Treble-Banded Brooke Seacoast and Navy Rifle  M1862.







     Cannon Cocker,   Thanks for your order.  It's O.K. that you have not found a perfect host cannon for your 1" sleeve.  There is always the 3" ordnance rifle or how about something really unique like the gift to the Confederacy by a group of ex pats that now resides in Grant Park in Galena, Ill., not all that far away for you.  The 3.75" Blakely Rifle, Type 1 was the only rifle the South had in April of 1861 to hurl shells at Fort Sumter occupied at the time by Federal troops of Anderson's Command.  This was the very first use of rifled artillery in the war which saw a large increase in the popularity of rifled guns by that war's end.  I believe it was also called a 12 Pdr. by some authorities based on projectile weight.   Bonus!  It was mounted on an easier to make, 4 truck naval carriage.  Maybe??


     GGaskill,   Thanks for your order.  Mike and I believe you have chosen well  The  3.2-Inch rifled Field Gun  M1890 is one of our favorites.  We stydied it alongside Highway 2 going through Vermont and just outside of Fort Washington on the Potomac River.  We found an absolutely perfect example inside the Rock Island Arnsenal Museum in Rock Island, Illinois.  There were 3 models of this gun used in the 1890s.  The 1885 which you show in the posted photo was changed dramatically only 5 years later when the vent became an axial one instead of the radial one on the 1885, going through the mushroom head of the DeBang style breech block, straight thru the spindle and out the back of the breech block to a friction primer debris deflector still in use by those artillerymen whose guns participate in the long range matches in the Midwest.  The final model was the 1897 which changed via a chamber insert which reduced the size of the chamber allowing use of smokeless powder.  We are sending George all of our photos we took of these guns as we find them.

Tracy & Mike

[Victor3]

       So, Victor3, what say you.   

"Get thee behind me, satan..."

[Cannon Cocker]

   
    how about something really unique like the gift to the Confederacy by a group of ex pats that now resides in Grant Park in Galena, Ill., not all that far away for you.  The 3.75" Blakely Rifle, Type 1 was the only rifle the South had in April of 1861 to hurl shells at Fort Sumter occupied at the time by Federal troops of Anderson's Command.  This was the very first use of rifled artillery in the war which saw a large increase in the popularity of rifled guns by that war's end.  I believe it was also called a 12 Pdr. by some authorities based on projectile weight.   Bonus!  It was mounted on an easier to make, 4 truck naval carriage.  Maybe?   

Yes, that's a contender.  We've done the bed and breakfast thing twice in Galena.  Seen Grant's home which looks the way he left it, furniture and all.  Someone down there told me a lot of the city is hollow below the surface do to the mining of the mineral galena, which is the source of lead.  I'm sure many a bolt was sheathed with lead from the mines below Galena.  Thanks for the suggestion. 

[shred]

Just ordered me a tube.  Not sure what I'll build it into but I have a supply of short bits of 1" 12L14 rod to make into bolts and it looks like these sleeves won't be around for long.

That Hotchkiss is sweet (and I have one of Hotchkiss' other designs on the back-burner to make right now) but I'd have to undo M&Ts welding to make a bag loader though...

[GGaskill]

... but I'd have to undo M&Ts welding to make a bag loader though...

Ask them to do it without the breech plug.

[KABAR2]

... but I'd have to undo M&Ts welding to make a bag loader though...

Ask them to do it without the breech plug.

I think their rifling head needs something to stop on to set the cutter their machine is designed to do barrels that were deep hole drilled... not tubes....

[seacoastartillery]

     KABAR2 is partially correct in that most of the time we rifle blind holes, but we can change the configuration of the rifling machine in about 5 minutes to cut rifle open ended tubes.  We simply clamp a large angle plate about 1.5" from the tube's end to actuate the cutter and it cuts the groove all the way along the whole tube.

    So, Shred, when you are sure which way you want your sleeve, just send us a note as GGaskill suggests telling us to make the sleeve w/o a breech plug or with one.  With a breech plug the price is $399 and w/o a breech plug the price is $339.  Add the S&H charge of $35 to both for secure, insured shipment.  You see if you specify No Breech Plug, then we don't have to precisely machine a two dia. breech plug or machine an exact dimension recess  which is .002" less in diameter than the breech plug size, in the tube end to receive it, nor do we have to machine two bevels to insure deep weld penetration.  There is no heat shrink process either, nor is there any $35 charge for professional welding the breech plug.  $60 of work doesn't have to be done, so we reduce the total price by that amount. 

    Only two more sleeves of this size are available, fellas so get one before they are gone.  Remember we won't be making this size again for quite a while, because the 1.750" size is next and then the long tube Krupp Gun is due to start and that will be a 3 to 4 month adventure.  I just finished the tube drawing yesterday for the new Krupp and it's a beauty.  See pic below very soon ( I need to take one first).

Mike and Tracy


The New Krupp Gun is overall larger in all diameters and breech length, not just tube length!  It is compared here with the old 1866 Krupp Seacoast Howitzer.  Quite some difference, eh?

[KABAR2]

Krupp drawing looks good! ...... I'll be trying to put some pennies away for the 1.75 bbl liner and my Ser#2 Krupp...... Thank God for auctions!

[shred]

Hmm... very tempting, especially with a the discount..

Rats... poking around the Hotchkiss data shows it's ~40 calibers while the M&T tube seems to be 30-ish.  Must contemplate some more.  Don't go welding my tube just yet.

[seacoastartillery]

     KABAR2,   Glad you like the drawing, I think bigger is better.  Can you imagine, a forty pound firecracker cannon???  Yikes!

     Shred,    Chances are that you will not find an original gun which is an exact duplicate of our sleeve length.  Most cannon builders we know are quite particular about caliber scale, less so much about tube length.  The 3 Pdr. Hotchkiss naval gun is really close to half scale caliber wise  25.4mm  VS 47mm.  It calculates to 54%.  The length is off more at 74", not 60", but you are relying on dubious sources for the data wich probably came from a tape measure run all the way to the back of the breech block or to the back of the stock, who knows.  It sure doesn't look like that bore is any 74".  I get closer to 58", myself, making 29" really close to 1/2 scale, just like the bore diameter.

     But you will probably find one you like better anyhow, but to ME that 3 Pdr. Hotchkiss is a really pretty gun!  Good luck in your search.

Tracy


From wikipedia:

[Cannon Cocker]

     KABAR2 is partially correct in that most of the time we rifle blind holes, but we can change the configuration of the rifling machine in about 5 minutes to cut rifle open ended tubes.  We simply clamp a large angle plate about 1.5" from the tube's end to actuate the cutter and it cuts the groove all the way along the whole tube.

 

Interesting about rifling open tubes vs blind hole.  In my travels I talked to a guy who rifles modern barrels (all open tubes) who was impressed and didn't know that Civil War era tubes were blind hole rifled.  He stated that he wouldn't be able to do it. 

If and when you do this modification enabling you to rifle open ended tubes, I would like to see some pictures of the setup you mentioned. 

[seacoastartillery]

     

 Interesting about rifling open tubes vs blind hole.  In my travels I talked to a guy who rifles modern barrels (all open tubes) who was impressed and didn't know that Civil War era tubes were blind hole rifled.  He stated that he wouldn't be able to do it. 

If and when you do this modification enabling you to rifle open ended tubes, I would like to see some pictures of the setup you mentioned. 

     When I went to get some photos of the thru hole method of rifling, I received a surprise.  Mike had changed the set-up to the very first way we had the equipment arranged.  He moved the big angle plate right up to the back of the tube to block it from being pulled backward when the close fitting, (.0015") clearance rifling head is moved to the breech end start position.  The photo captions describe in detail what happens next.

Mike and Tracy


This photo shows how the rifling head looks when it emerges from the tube.  The  wedge position bolt and the waterfall adjustment bolt move as a single unit and are attached to the wedge which drives the hook cutter upward to engage the groove steel to be removed.  They are obviously in the cutting position in this pic.




The bolts are pulled backward as you see here which drops the cutter so it won't scrape the groove just cut on the way back to the rifling start point.




Here you can see that the big angle plate is clamped  firmly against the end of the tube being rifled and the rifling head adjusting bolts and cutter lies beyond the tube's end.




After you rotate the tube to the next index wheel position, the number of which equal the number of grooves, and set the spring loaded spud into the tapered hole for it, you carefully place your index finger in the position shown as you prepare to thrust the adjusting bolts foreward into the rifling head, forcing the wedge forward and the hook cutter upward into groove cutting position.  Then you crank on the large hand wheel which turns the chain drive, pulling the carriage, rack, pinion gear and the rifling head shaft forward to cut another .000150" (one tenth fifty millionths of an inch) from the bottom of the new groove.





After pushing the adjusting bolts forcefully forward the loose washer should be tightly gripped between the larger cap screw head and the rear rifling head face as shown.  Once, upon reaching index wheel position #1, after a full revolution of the wheel cutting all grooves to the exact same depth, you must rotate the large bolt which is a 1/4 -20 socket head cap screw 1/4 turn which, with the wedge and cutter mating surface angles causes the cutter to move outward .000150".




Mike wanted me to show you guys than there is some pain involved in getting these tubes rifled.  This photo shows several red areas where the 10-32 adjuster bolt head is starting to wear holes in Mike's finger.  I asked him why he went back to manual actuation of the cutter depth setting and he said "feel".  He says this way he knows instantly if a little metal flake or chip is jammed anywhere in the rifling head where it can cause an imperfect cut.  He also said, "this product doesn't look like much, so without perfect rifling, you have nothing of value.  With rifling as close to perfect as you can get, what you have is priceless."  Remember what Col. Townsend Whelan said,   "Only accurate rifles are interesting!"

[Victor3]

Mike wanted me to show you guys than there is some pain involved in getting these tubes rifled.  This photo shows several red areas where the 10-32 adjuster bolt head is starting to wear holes in Mike's finger.

 Cry me a river. 


 The only "red area" I'm concerned about is the $400 hole that the Seacoast sales dept. just blew into my checking account.


 I'll include free a band-aid in the envelope with my payment.